Madeleine McCann 3 year old missing in Portugal - Part 8

[RoughlyCollie]

Hi Scandi,

I see 2 problems with your theory:

First, is Jeremy a close friend of Gerry's? I thought the two met on that holiday and played some tennis together, not that they were good enough friends that one could call on the other to remove the body of a child.

(If I accidentally killed my child, there is not a single friend or relative I would feel comfortable calling to initiate a cover-up. If I did that, I'd have to be very certain the person would say yes -- otherwise, what if they told and blew the whole plan sky high? Body removal services are not something I've ever talked about with my friends and family, and I cannot imagine doing so. I know that I would not do that for anyone, not even one of my siblings, no matter what.)

Second, why would the McCanns hide M because her life was threatened? Why would a little girl's life be threatened, and if it were, why wouldn't the parents go directly to the police? Why this charade in front of the whole world?

(If the life of one of my kids was threatened, I would remove all of my kids from harm's way and I would stay with them in a secure, secret location, while my husband went to the police. That seems a more rational way to handle it, than to end up with the child disappearing after being hidden.)

Also, if your theory turns out to be true, all involved ought to be worried about what will happen in this world if they are caught, *and* what will happen in the next, even if LE doesn't catch them.

(snipped throughout to save space)

Gerry had a good friend from England on holiday and close by, and he called him from Russel's place to see if he could help to remove the body. He would wrap her in a blanket and carry her down the street and Jane would then be able to tell the truth that she had seen a man carry away what appeared to be a child. They agreed this should happen around 9:15 when all was quiet outside. Gerry would check the children at 9:30 and return saying all was well, and Kate would go at 10 to discover her missing.



If she did not die that evening, then I believe the McCanns had to hide her for some reason as her life had been threatened. Everything was done the same way.

 

[CaliKid]

Hi CaliKid, Good to see you ;} Yes, I have been really busy over there and do a lot of researching on links and trying to solve the puzzle. That's what it is all about, to solve that puzzle, and we certainly have one being put together in this case. At least we have been given a lot more info than you and I have seen in other cases where we feel starved and our tongues start to drag on the floor lol But we always want to learn more, right?

You have the basics of the case down quite well. The couple at Sagres on the beach that were seen photographing children, they were ruled out as suspects by the PJ, or local police force in the Algarve.

One of the first things that was done was LE in England sent all the info they had to the PJ regarding the pedophalia linkage that they knew was there. It is a stronghold for these men, in fact a short time before she went missing, 150 pedo's from England were approved for their vacations, and left for the beaches of the Mediterranian, naming Portugal in particular. From The area of that south coast of Portugal and including the Canary and other islands out in the Atlantic and over to Marbella in Spain and up to Seville it is an area where they live. They have had two big busts in Europe since May 3rd in Europe of these men, and I hope for all of them to be routed out completely.

I am sure you read today that @ SOS Madeleine Mr Levy gave a new tip today that the mileage was off kilt when Mr Murat returned his rental. His source is from someone close to the PJ. And we also had a hot tip from another local poster saying the auto Murat rented was a small white van, and not what has been stated so far in the press.

Well, time to get ready for tomorrow, but will see you again tomorrow night!

xoxoxox Scandi

I would imagine that the people of Spain and Portugal must be furious to know that the UK exports their pedophiles to their region for vacation. Do they go to the coast and never come back?

 

[CaliKid]

Hi Scandi,

I see 2 problems with your theory:

First, is Jeremy a close friend of Gerry's? I thought the two met on that holiday and played some tennis together, not that they were good enough friends that one could call on the other to remove the body of a child.

(If I accidentally killed my child, there is not a single friend or relative I would feel comfortable calling to initiate a cover-up. If I did that, I'd have to be very certain the person would say yes -- otherwise, what if they told and blew the whole plan sky high? Body removal services are not something I've ever talked about with my friends and family, and I cannot imagine doing so. I know that I would not do that for anyone, not even one of my siblings, no matter what.)

Second, why would the McCanns hide M because her life was threatened? Why would a little girl's life be threatened, and if it were, why wouldn't the parents go directly to the police? Why this charade in front of the whole world?

(If the life of one of my kids was threatened, I would remove all of my kids from harm's way and I would stay with them in a secure, secret location, while my husband went to the police. That seems a more rational way to handle it, than to end up with the child disappearing after being hidden.)

Also, if your theory turns out to be true, all involved ought to be worried about what will happen in this world if they are caught, *and* what will happen in the next, even if LE doesn't catch them.

It sounds as if blackmail was used to convince various people to help out and keep their mouths shut. While not substantiated, some have suggested that the McCanns and their friends covered for each other in the past, and favors were called in to hush up Madeleine's death. The weak point becomes what all of these medical professionals are hiding behind that must be really awful. In any case, why hasn't one of them come forward and cut a deal for granted immunity.

The same goes for the idea of keeping Madeleine safe. I've read on a few web pages that people think PM Gordon Brown, who is a McCann supporter, is a Mason and has strong ties to Scotland where GM comes from. There are those who believe some well-connected person in a secret society wanted Madeleine, either as a show of allegiance or as payback for a favor. How this fits into a kidnap scenario I don't know. Watching GM and his weird emotions, I suppose it's possible he faked her kidnapping to keep her away from someone, or maybe he thought it was a fake kidnapping that went wrong. I guess I'm just rambling.

 

[scandi]

I would imagine that the people of Spain and Portugal must be furious to know that the UK exports their pedophiles to their region for vacation. Do they go to the coast and never come back?

No, it was their vacation for a month I believe when they can leave the country but do have to return. Their passport or visa is only good for a certain amount of time I guess {?} But I know it was a 1 month vacation.

I'll have to check to see exactly where those 2 busts were. They weren't down on the coast of the Mediterranean. I thought one bust was a group that had tentacles up into Holland an Germany, and the other one maybe in Spain. I'll look tomorrow.

There is one biggie now, Oliver somethning who they think is in the Canary Islands and is a rock singer who makes a good living. They say he is rich and owns a huge villa up in northern Portugal. Nasty 300 lb guy. They will catch him as he is on Interpol's mind. LOLOL

xoxoxo

 

[Schmerty_Jones]

Maddie was overdosed. No body wants to have little kids on their hands. If she was pre pubescent 8-10yrs or otherwise .for peadophiles. Its too much trouble to care for
little kids. Clearly the McCanns thought so. They take every hour of the day. These selfish people had a child react to sleeping medication Madelaine, & the story is going to get bigger & bigger & BIGGER until it explodes in their faces. They are IMMATURE,EMOTIONALLY DAMAGED, WITHOUT A CONCIENCE!:silenced:

 

[scandi]

Here is the info on Oliver Shanti, the man who is on the lam and whose residence is in northern Portugal, thought to be in the Canary Islands right now:


http://tinyurl.com/22x5n6

Nite All xoxoxo


ETA: You need to click on 'more information'

 

[Shazza]

Maddie was overdosed. No body wants to have little kids on their hands. If she was pre pubescent 8-10yrs or otherwise .for peadophiles. Its too much trouble to care for
little kids. Clearly the McCanns thought so. They take every hour of the day. These selfish people had a child react to sleeping medication Madelaine, & the story is going to get bigger & bigger & BIGGER until it explodes in their faces. They are IMMATURE,EMOTIONALLY DAMAGED, WITHOUT A CONCIENCE!:silenced:

That is one of the scenerios that I think could be possible Schmerty_Jones, well done. The McCanns are in deep and I do believe the truth will come out.

 

[Shazza]

Here is the info on Oliver Shanti, the man who is on the lam and whose residence is in northern Portugal, thought to be in the Canary Islands right now:


http://tinyurl.com/22x5n6

Nite All xoxoxo


ETA: You need to click on 'more information'

Hey Scandi, you have really been busy, please forgive me but what does Oliver Shanti have to do with Madelaines disappearance, sorry in advance for being such a dolt.

 

[jacobean]

He has a Scottish accent... not sure of what dialect it is, though...

Fas as i know, he's glaswegian - same as my mother. I dont have a problem to understand his speech but im used to it, its a difficult accent for people who arent used to it to understand.....

Apologies, just seen Kizza already answered this....

 

[mrsmousemat]

I agree 100% with this part of the article by Chris Freind of the Bulletin:

But hey, they allegedly "checked" on the kids from time to time, between the prawns and paella, no doubt, even though the hotel door was left unlocked for "fire-safety" reasons. (Explain the logic of that one.)

Most amazing of all, the McCanns still don't see anything wrong with what they did. After all, they say, that's the way they do things in Britain. It's just a "cultural difference," we're told.

That "cultural difference" is nothing more than politically correct code-speak for sheer laziness and wanton selfishness that quite possibly cost Madeleine her life. But kidnappers love it.

Right on cue, the irresponsible British press, rather than covering the McCann situation, chose instead to cover for the McCanns. It inexplicably misrepresented the facts and under-reported the real story. Rather than chastising the parents and using the media to raise awareness about the perils of leaving young children alone, many British journalists looked for a scapegoat, preferably a non-British one. They found it in the form of the Portuguese.

******************************************************
You seem to have misread that it is not the British way to leave children alone. In fact, there are many articles in the British press which criticise the McCanns.

What there maybe is a cultural difference in some parts of Britain in which parents do not like to leave their children alone with outsiders- especially as paedophiles seem to be drawn to occupations which allow them contact with children.

They would treat a team effort of people that they know as a preference to leaving the children with people that they do not know and do not trust.

The McCanns mistakenly thought that they could keep an eye on the children from where they were. They were wrong. The huge majority of British parents would not have left the children as they did and although many of us think that they may have been reckless, we are not willing to judge that they were as it is inappropriate to do so without the full facts, and particularly at this time in which they are so pressured.
It is simply not the British way to 'kick someone when they are down'..

It is not a matter of making the Portuguese scapegoats - the British press are generally comparing the way in which the police investigated this crime and finding that - somewhat understandably...from a small police station in a seaside town - that flats, villas etc were not searched, weeks after the event.

There was little evidence of roadblocks. Reluctuance to investigate areas after tip-offs and general lack of information. It has even been said that the drains and rubbish tips were not searched. This all may be due to lack of manpower on the case. But in Britain, as in the USA, there would have been a full scale search and alerts.

You seem to think it is the press' job to 'chastise' people, rather than give factual accounts. In the main, British journalists are trained to write articles which let the facts speak for themselves.

We tend to think any think 'chastising' should be left to the courts as our judicial system assumes the innocence of all parties until proved guilty by court procedure. And that includes the McCanns and Robert Murat.

 

[Shazza]

******************************************************
You seem to have misread that it is not the British way to leave children alone. In fact, there are many articles in the British press which criticise the McCanns.

What there maybe is a cultural difference in some parts of Britain in which parents do not like to leave their children alone with outsiders- especially as paedophiles seem to be drawn to occupations which allow them contact with children.

They would treat a team effort of people that they know as a preference to leaving the children with people that they do not know and do not trust.

The McCanns mistakenly thought that they could keep an eye on the children from where they were. They were wrong. The huge majority of British parents would not have left the children as they did and although many of us think that they may have been reckless, we are not willing to judge that they were as it is inappropriate to do so without the full facts, and particularly at this time in which they are so pressured.
It is simply not the British way to 'kick someone when they are down'..

It is not a matter of making the Portuguese scapegoats - the British press are generally comparing the way in which the police investigated this crime and finding that - somewhat understandably...from a small police station in a seaside town - that flats, villas etc were not searched, weeks after the event.

There was little evidence of roadblocks. Reluctuance to investigate areas after tip-offs and general lack of information. It has even been said that the drains and rubbish tips were not searched. This all may be due to lack of manpower on the case. But in Britain, as in the USA, there would have been a full scale search and alerts.

You seem to think it is the press' job to 'chastise' people, rather than give factual accounts. In the main, British journalists are trained to write articles which let the facts speak for themselves.

We tend to think any think 'chastising' should be left to the courts as our judicial system assumes the innocence of all parties until proved guilty by court procedure. And that includes the McCanns and Robert Murat.

You say the courts should make the decision to chastise the felons in this case. Well child endangerment is a felony in most countries, so charge the McCanns they are guilty they have admitted they left their children alone, so even though Madelaine is still missing, the McCanns are still felons and should be treated as such.

 

[Shazza]

The cultural difference is a smoke screen for the McCanns to hide behind, just another excuse to take the blame and responsibility for their negligence pertaining to their children.
So lets get real and start the ball rolling, charge the McCanns and maybe the truth will come out, as the truth and nothing but the truth is what it is all about, and if they have nothing to hide, no one will perjure and all that were there will be questioned, the pact of silence between the McCanns and their friends would be no longer.

 

[mrsmousemat]

I'm interested to know how you have read the police reports in that you are so certain that there is a 'pact of silence'. Wish I had your contacts...

If you mean not speaking to the press... well that is the right and is also seemly prohibited by Portuguese law.

Still it's always nice to hear from one that has extensive inside knowledge from the Portuguese police - not to mention a smattering of Portuguese law.

 

[colomom]

I am not Shazza but I would like to respond, if you don't mind...

I'm interested to know how you have read the police reports in that you are so certain that there is a 'pact of silence'. Wish I had your contacts...

Published in Sol, on June 30, 2007
an article by Felicia Cabrita and Margarida Davim

And Russell, when the questions start to surround him, loses his sympathy: "I have nothing further to tell you. I am not going to dishonor the compromise I assumed with Kate and Gerry. They want to control all infornation that is disclosed".

Works for me....for now.

If you mean not speaking to the press... well that is the right and is also seemly prohibited by Portuguese law.

Did you mean their right? If so, that's true. No so sure about the Portuguese law...

Still it's always nice to hear from one that has extensive inside knowledge from the Portuguese police - not to mention a smattering of Portuguese law.

Hmmmmm, that's not nice.

And that could be considered being really mean.

 

[docwho3]

Lets not be calling or hinting that people are trolls. As that in itself is against WS policy as I have seen it stated. We have a report button for any post that one thinks is an attack on a poster or a family bash etc. Surely we do not want to see our thread closed (as I have known mods to do) due to bickering and name calling.

We need to discuss the case on its merits and try to do what little we can to see this little girl found and the case solved.

To move on to case discussion:
I have a question: Does anyone think mr murat is involved in the disappearance and if so do you think he acted alone or as part of some team?

Does anyone know why L.E. is so interested in him?

 

[docwho3]

Your statement was in response to Calidkid - "The Towel, what happened to that?"

Madeleine Clues: The Towel. . .

Thank you again for an informative and helpful post.

 

[docwho3]

A few things about theories and case facts that have caught my notice:

thanks to calikids post #125 I read the linked article.
". . . Mrs McCann studied medicine at the University of Dundee, qualified as an anaesthetist, then retrained as a GP because the work would be easier to combine with motherhood. . . ."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1779638.ece

This specialist training, anaesthetist, bothers me even more when looking at the theory of any possible accidental med overdose or meds reaction which might have resulted in the death and subsequent hiding of the girls body. I just can't see such an accidental overdose happening with that level training.

The parents allegedly saying something about "they've taken her!" when the girl first disappeared. This might mean nothing odd at all or it might have been a slip of the tongue indicating they knew something about why she disappeared and who might have taken her. I make no accusation but I just ponder this odd little fact and hope someday to know the answer.

mr murat:
". . . On 16 May, it was reported that two cars used by the Murats had been examined, and computers, mobile phones and several video tapes were taken from their villa.[22] It also emerged that a British architect who built the villa was ignored when he called police about a hidden basement within the property.[23]
The police were understood to have taken in for questioning Sergey Malinka, 22, a man of Russian origin, from whose property officers also took away a laptop computer and two hard drives. Malinka had set up a website for Murat[24] and the two exchanged frequent phone calls since Madeleine's disappearance—the reason the authorities started suspecting him.[25][26]
Chief Police Inspector Olegário Sousa reiterated there was insufficient evidence to make any arrests. Regarding Sergey Malinka, police said that he had been questioned as a witness for approximately 5 hours, which did not, due to the "dynamic" nature of the investigation, mean the witness couldn't become a suspect.[27]
Malinka spoke negatively of the coverage of the case in the Portuguese media, which had alleged that he was a convicted sexual offender, and denied he had contacted Murat. He said he was "completely innocent".[28] However, inconsistencies in his account of his relationship with Robert Murat emerged; he had said he had not contacted Murat in a year but Murat’s mobile phone records allegedly show he called Mr Malinka at 23:40 on the night Madeleine went missing.[29][30]. . ."

and:
". . . Murat was interviewed for a second and third time on 10 July and 11 July to clarify what detectives described as details and possible contradictions from his previous statement in the light of new information.[33]. . ."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Murat
Note: I added the bolding.

It may be that L.E. have developed tunnel vision concerning mr murat but the info as it reads sounds like it would make anyone look him over carefully before moving on.

The seldom mentioned DNA found in the bathroom also makes me wonder. Has it been compared to anyone yet? (Source =same webpage at wikipedia.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Murat

The alarm was raised and people searched all over. If, as some have theorized, the little girl wandered off on her own, how was it that she was not found with all the searching that was done? Surely people in the vicinity did not sit on their hands and not search when a parent cried out that her child was gone?

These arent the only things that make me wonder but they are a few.

 

[mrsmousemat]

[quote=docwho3;1604540]Lets not be calling or hinting that people are trolls. As that in itself is against WS policy as I have seen it stated. We have a report button for any post that one thinks is an attack on a poster or a family bash etc. Surely we do not want to see our thread closed (as I have known mods to do) due to bickering and name calling.

We need to discuss the case on its merits and try to do what little we can to see this little girl found and the case solved.

To move on to case discussion:
I have a question: Does anyone think mr murat is involved in the disappearance and if so do you think he acted alone or as part of some team?

Does anyone know why L.E. is so interested in him?[/quote]

Thank heavens to this poster - back to Websleuths again, as previously requested.

But what on earth is a troll? And why am I being considered as being nearly one?.... Sorry I don't normally contribute to these sort of sites and I don't know the etiquette. But if it's just down to posts on 'gut reactions' on something so serious, I don't think I'm on the right site as I had mistakenly thought that the clue was in the website title.

By asking anyone to justify a viewpoint, supposedly based on facts - why is this considered a bad thing to do to ask how this person came about these facts?

After pleading to get back to talking about the case, and not just 'chastise' the McCanns, I was hoping that the the debate would be a bit more to the point, as in the above post.

So thanks to doc3.

Back to the case... It maybe possible that Robert Murat acted as a tipster - unwitting or not - to a team. I haven't read that he has much of a gainful occcupation but I may be mistaken. How does he support himself and presumably his wife and child in the UK? If he is starting up a 'new business' does he have the money to do so?

If he was still around on the night after the disappearance he might have still been gathering information - or not. Particularly since he is described as over eager to please.

There is some odd stuff on his love for Bouncy Castles on British websites, love of children and love of *advertiser censored*. But whether or not any of it is connected to this case is hard to guess and at least one of those three criteria seems to apply to most British men, if the statistics are to be believed.

We don't know what has been found on his computer and that of his Russian friend. We don't know what his first statement was. We don't know whether or not the phone calls place him at his mother's residence or not. In essence, we don't know enough to say with any certaintly that he is even marginally involved.

...Incidentally I've also read that Robert Murat looks suspicious because he has a 'un-coordinated eye, is dark, overweight and smirks'.

However, since our new Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, also has these exact attributes, I don't think that we can assume that these 'gut reactions' count for much either.

 

[Kizzbo]

Here is the info on Oliver Shanti, the man who is on the lam and whose residence is in northern Portugal, thought to be in the Canary Islands right now:


http://tinyurl.com/22x5n6

Nite All xoxoxo


ETA: You need to click on 'more information'

This is the warrant for his arrest - not a nice guy

http://tinyurl.com/yust7r

He goes under several different names

 

[docwho3]

. . .We don't know what has been found on his computer and that of his Russian friend. We don't know what his first statement was. We don't know whether or not the phone calls place him at his mother's residence or not. In essence, we don't know enough to say with any certaintly that he is even marginally involved. . .

Very true that we ourselves do not know but L.E. ,who evidently do know, seem to feel there is cause to suspect mr murat and without evidence to the contrary I tend to accept their assessment. . . . . .but thats just how I feel about it and I understand if others do not feel that way. I do wish we knew what L.E. knows about him, perhaps in time we will.

...Incidentally I've also read that Robert Murat looks suspicious because he has a 'un-coordinated eye, is dark, overweight and smirks'.

However, since our new Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, also has these exact attributes, I don't think that we can assume that these 'gut reactions' count for much either.

Side note: I like your sense of humor. In truth I did not know those attributes applied to your new Prime Minister.

Also: I sent you a PM (private message) recently. There should be a link to private messages in the upper right corner of the forum page.