Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 25

[Barnaby]

Hi colomom. Thank you for your welcome and everyone who has responded. And it’s ok you, or Tony Bennett or twinkiesmom not agreeing with most of what I said. Funny enough I do agree with most of what you’ve said in nearly all the messages I’ve read.

Please don’t get me wrong, I am not condoning the behaviour of people who leave their babies unattended. I agree with Tony Bennett here regarding the dangers of : “playing with matches, fire, playing with cooker, other emergency, vomiting, choking, falling over, cutting yourself, swallowing drugs that look like sweets...and many more clear risks”
My saying “it’s not a crime” really meant that most of us are so prone to doing all sorts of offences, and then we try to get away with whatever we do. Hands up who has done something punishable by law, got away with it, and then actually surrendered herself to the authorities to be punished? Say, you exceeded the speed limit and were NOT apprehended by the police, would you go to them voluntarily and pay the fine and surrender your drivers’ license happily informing the officer that you were drunk when driving too?

The most hateful aspect of the Macs activity, I think, has to do with them going too far in their attempt to appear innocent. It is meeting the Pope, collecting all that money, meeting important people and - what is worst – enjoying their new found celebrity status which was arguably based on lies.

Here I think they didn’t have much of a choice, though. Once they decided to get away with the murder, they couldn’t very well say, they didn’t need the money or support to search for M, could they? And when their well placed pals and the public offered their help, they had to play along by gracefully and gratefully accepting the donations. Now it all has snowballed into a farce, over which they arguably haven’t much control. The Macs have to keep going “kissing kiddies” and “launching balloons”.

As for G rooting for K.
Again, I ask you, if your daughter accidentally committed a manslaughter and you were the sole witness, the only one who could land her in prison or let her go free, would you testify against your own daughter or you’d rather keep quiet or lie? That I think was the dilemma G was facing in respect to K.

Now, colomom, the only problem I’ve ever had with your posts – and this line disappointed me, to be honest - was your saying

<quote>
[snip] I just pray that Madeleine is not suffering now.
</quote>

Here I agree with the famous philosopher Daniel Dennett who in his letter &#8220;Thank goodness I&#8217;m alive&#8221; expressed the opinion that <quote> if you truly wish somebody to do well, then would it not be better to take the time and resources devoted to prayer and devote them to doing something that is actually useful? </quote>

And one of my best loved quotes on this forum was what Refugee was saying on his/her message #446 (thread 24)

<quote>
[snip].. but I will say this, just like those who believe in a god, I have a right not to believe in a god! It is a bit unfair that those who believe are allowed to make religious statements, but those who dont are told we must keep quiet and respect the beliefs of the god fearing!
</quote>

I really loved that.

Thank you.

Well I for one try to keep within the law, I don't speed or drink & drive due to the fact that I might kill someone more so than break the law albeit, the law is there for that very reason. It is out of respect for my fellow man/woman, child & even animals that I behave in this manner!
If Gerry & Kate had any respect for their children never mind actual love then they would not be in this position. There is no way that I will excuse anything they have done by sweeping it under the carpet & saying we all would have acted in a similar manner, no we would not! I would:
1. Have loved my children
2. Never left them alone
3. Never sedated them to go boozing with pals or for any other reason.
4. Have considered a family holiday to be just that & included my children not dumped them in a creche.
5. God forbid if any accident had ever happened one of my children I would face the music rather than dump his/her little body in an unmarked grave or worse! If I lost a child my life would be over anyway so it wouldn't matter whether i kept my job or spent time in prison!

We all have choices in everything that we do so to say they had no choice is ludicrous. They chose to act in the callous manner that they did.
If they could not change what they did to originally "lose" Madeleine then they could have chosen to act with dignity afterwards not to try to scam the whole world and they could also have chosen to have a respectful mourning period for her not grin their way through the first weeks!
Gerry could also have chosen to pay tribute to her in his blogs, he did not!

You quote Refugee who states that everyone has the right to express their religious views, which is correct, why then does Colomon's line disappoint you?
Daniel Dennett's quote is well & good but what do you expect people at opposite ends of the world to do other than unite on a forum like this, try to figure out what happened to this little girl & to pray for her if that is what the people in question believe will help, thus showing our respect for her?
Her own mother was onsite & didn't do much in the line of anything constructive to help find her. Instead of physically searching she jogged, had her hair done, bought new clothes & jewellery & spent time at the pool! Again that was a choice that she readily made, I very much doubt that any of the mother's here would have stayed in the apartment on the night that their daughter disappeared, but then I don't believe that she had any motivation to search do you? She had a choice though to go out & at least appear to be a concerned mother, she chose not to bother thus displaying her complete disregard for the opinions of those that she was about to scam!

 

[colomom]

Yay!!!! I am so happy to see some intelligent debate and discourse this morning.

I must admit that my statement regarding feynmanadmirer and your first post was rather abrupt and could have been more detailed. I apologize. Also, I truly hope that nobody on our forum for Maddie thinks that I am an evangelist. The reference to prayer is probably more indicative of the intensity of my feeling in that regard. I remember when I first heard about this case and I remember how there were so many references to pedophiles, it absolutely tore me up. As the mother of a young daughter I found myself in a very scary place. I literally cried every day at the thought of what Madeleine might be going through. I have never been a religious person (except for a very difficult time in my life) but I thought that my only choice was to reach out to a higher power that I thought was Madeleine's only chance. I spent alot of time in those early days reaching out to the universe begging and pleading for intervention for that little girl.

I have to admit that when my eyes turned toward the parents and their possible involvement, I was relieved. My friend moongodess really helped me when she told me her "vision" about this case. While the thought of Maddie's parents having killed her and then hidden her body and creating the largest fraud of my lifetime was horrible, the alternative rocked my world.

I can related to your second post feynmanadmirer, especially about how the Mcs got caught up in their deceit and could not easily change their fate. I really believe that in some ways they too are victims in this case. Victims because of their choices but victims nonetheless. Can't say that I feel sorry for them though. I totally believe that what goes around, comes around and when you make your bed you must then lie in it.

Finally, I must say that I really believe that Gerry is the architect and the perpetrator in this case. I can explain further if necessary.

 

[twinkiesmom]

Please don&#8217;t get me wrong, I am not condoning the behaviour of people who leave their babies unattended.
My saying &#8220;it&#8217;s not a crime&#8221; really meant that most of us are so prone to doing all sorts of offences, and then we try to get away with whatever we do. Hands up who has done something punishable by law, got away with it, and then actually surrendered herself to the authorities to be punished? Say, you exceeded the speed limit and were NOT apprehended by the police, would you go to them voluntarily and pay the fine and surrender your drivers&#8217; license happily informing the officer that you were drunk when driving too?

You're equating felony child neglect with speeding which isn't even a misdemeanor. That is condoning their behavior.

I don't even agree with you that the worst thing they did was acting sanctimonious....next to killing Madeleine (alleged), the worst thing they are likely to have done is profited financially from the crime (fraud) from kindhearted people. I do not know of any other parent of a missing child operating a webstore.

I haven't seen any atheist bashing on this board or on Websleuths in general...have no idea where that came from. Religious people expressing their views or asking for prayer is just their exercising their First Amendment rights...You don't have to join in if you don't believe.

 

[colomom]

Real quick then I have to fly.....

I am very pleased to see our recent new posters, including feynmanadmirer, they are intelligent and articulate. They are also willing to express their opinions, even if controversial, without insulting those with differing opinions.

I encourage all of you to not jump to conclusions....yet. It appears to me that we are very much in agreement about the fundamentals of this case. PERFECT for some proper sleuthing.

I will be back later and I would really LOVE to talk about why some believe that Kate is the perp VS Gerry being the perp.

:grouphug:

 

[Barnaby]

Quite honestly Colomon I sway between Kate & Gerry killing Madeleine, I just cannot be sure!
Mostly I think it was Gerry but then I feel that surely no mother could act as Kate did i.e. being so controlled emotionally if that was the case & I swing back to thinking that she did it & held it together to save her own skin!
Gerry was certainly controlling of her on camera but that could be for either reason - "Shut up & don't say I did it" or "Shut up & don't land me (both of us) in it"
Kate was also the stressed mother whose diary entries implied that she couldn't cope & who was possibly likely to lash out if Madeleine was being what she would term difficult, while I reckon that Gerry escaped more to golf, tennis or whatever!
All this is of course, based on thinking that Madeleine may have been physically injured by one or other parent and the death was not related to sedation.

 

[CaliKid]

Quite honestly Colomon I sway between Kate & Gerry killing Madeleine, I just cannot be sure!
Mostly I think it was Gerry but then I feel that surely no mother could act as Kate did i.e. being so controlled emotionally if that was the case & I swing back to thinking that she did it & held it together to save her own skin!
Gerry was certainly controlling of her on camera but that could be for either reason - "Shut up & don't say I did it" or "Shut up & don't land me (both of us) in it"
Kate was also the stressed mother whose diary entries implied that she couldn't cope & who was possibly likely to lash out if Madeleine was being what she would term difficult, while I reckon that Gerry escaped more to golf, tennis or whatever!
All this is of course, based on thinking that Madeleine may have been physically injured by one or other parent and the death was not related to sedation.

Shaken Baby Syndrome?

Hi, everyone!

*waves*

 

[Texana]

Hey Calikid, right back atcha!

As for Kate vs. Gerry...I say neither! It was accident but both felt and were fully responsible--either a sedation issue OR a fatal fall behind the couch.

Both regarded it as a tragic unforeseen "accident" and not a result of Madeleine being left alone.

They are Team McCann in this. Gerry formulated most of the plan with some degree of help from some of the Tapas diners. Not all of them were in on the plan, all of them being close friends of the McCanns support them 100%.

Gerry is a very focused, "that was then, this is now" kind of person. He is much more detached and able to concentrate on details and actions. Kate is much more emotional. The idea of focusing on other "abducted" or missing children across Europe is a kind of penance Kate offered up as a way to deal with the secret burial or disposal of Madeleine's remains.

 

[Tony Bennett]

colomom wrote: "I will be back later and I would really LOVE to talk about why some believe that Kate is the perp VS Gerry being the perp".

REPLY: Yes! It seems to me that a significant body of evidence in this case derives from the words, actions and body language of the two McCanns.

Now, I happen to believe that men and women have important differences (yes!) and in particular I think that as a general rule women are better equipped for assessing e.g. body language, social interrelationships, reading visual and verbal clues ferom people etc. - for similar reasons, I tend to believe in the concept of 'feminine intuition'. Incidentally there is scientific back-up for what I am saying.

I think I'm right in saying that the vast majority of posts on the Madeleine McCann General Discussion threads here are from women and I also think that a far greater proportion of women post on Madeleine forums than on most other forums.

My point?

I'd like to see as much explicit discussion as possible - from everyone, men as well come to that - about what it is that makes people think one or other parent is 'more responsible' for Madeleine's death. In the absence of a confession or other forensic evidence, these cues ande clues that people have may be very important. Body language analysis is used very much in police interviews. I'd like the women on this thread in particular to explain their thinking and feeling on the issue of the McCanns' verbal and visual clues and where this takes us.

I would encourage you all to say what you think and why.

Having said that, it has frequently been the case that, for whatever reason, if a child has been killed or abused, one parent will cover for the other.

I would also like to throw in a possible scenario.

Suppose the McCanns (despite their denials) regularly gave Madeleine, and the twins, strong sedatives.

One parent decides, secretly, to treble the dose, and adminsters it without telling the other parent. As a result, the child dies.

In such a situation, could you realistically expect body language and verbal cues to tell you which parent had administered the extra drug dosage?

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[Texana]

The reason I think both McCanns were fully aware, and fully responsible, is how well they have acted as a team since Madeleine disappeared. Remember Kate's words--"It had made our marriage stronger. (paraphrased somewhat.) We don't row. We never row."

I think the "never row" was referring to post Madeleine's disappearance, not the whole marriage, since clearly they did indeed, at least in Kate's opinion, "row" enough that she said she slept in the children's room one night.

Gerry brags about Kate's running times on his blog. Kate talks about how they are both trying to do their best "for the twins."

I have not seen any real evidence of separation or disagreement in their body language in the interviews. If anything, they sometimes mirror each other when answering questions.They take turns answering questions, and neither one to any real extent, cuts the other off or interrupts. They are very comfortable letting the "other" speak or answer questions.

He flies off the U.S. to meet with the attorney general after Maddie disappears, she supports his efforts and appearances to raise money for the Fund.

They are united by a common goal and a common guilt.

 

[colomom]

~BIG wave to CaliKid~

So, my thoughts about the possibility that Gerry McCann was responsible for Madeleine's death.

Very early own I saw some visual "evidence" of Kate being very angry with Gerry. Look at these pics:

(cover half her face and look at the right side...eeeekkk)

This one being from this video: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/vi...ine%27s+Mum%3A+%27Please+Don%27t+Scare+Her%27

(at 1:04, a flash of anger, it's very subtle but I really picked up on it).

This one is part of a series that you can find here: http://www.exposay.com/kate-mccann-...-girl-madeleine-mccann-in-portugal/v/10561/2/

Look through them, what do you think? It looks like a bit of a "row" to me.

The arm bruise made me think of a very strong grab of her upper arms to try and control hysterics.

Not to mention statistics (from this study:http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/reprint/33/4/496.pdf)

Thirty cases of filicide-suicide were identi-
fied, resulting in a sample comprised of 10 (33%)
mothers and 20 (67%) fathers who had committed
filicide-suicide over the time period.

Fathers are much more likely to be the perps.

Finally, an intuit friend of mine told me about her theory and it struck a chord with me, I got chills. It was a very intense experience that continues to this day. I cannot explain it other than to say that there was a "vision" of Gerry losing his temper at bath time and a violent blow being struck and a sudden death.

I can really "see" Gerry telling Kate that it was all her fault and if she had a better handle on the children this never would have happened and that if she did not go along with the plan to cover up the accident/crime that she would lose everything, including her twins.

How's that for feminine intuition TB??

 

[twinkiesmom]

My intuition...I do feel Gerry may be a bully. And I do not attribute Kate's anguished looks necessarily to greater responsibility for the crime....It's more likely to me that he has a cold heart while she is honestly anguished.

I don't know what to make of your friend's vision...I would like to know what her belief system is...I would also like to know about Rev, but the mods at the other site shut down discussion on Rev's beliefs.

 

[feynmanadmirer]

I completely accept Barnaby’s:

5. God forbid if any accident had ever happened one of my children I would face the music rather than dump his/her little body in an unmarked grave or worse! If I lost a child my life would be over anyway so it wouldn't matter whether i kept my job or spent time in prison!

To me K looks like the guilty party for several reasons, but I will mention only one:
1. Had G killed their child, no mother, I’d think, would have gone so solidly behind her husband. Whereas I can see a man doing this for his spouse. To me it was blatantly obvious in the Ramsey’s case, where the fact that the mother (arguably) was the perp made the team Ramsey so solid.

 

[twinkiesmom]

Abused women cover for their significant others every day of the week.

 

[Texana]

I think while Kate may feel some repressed anger to Gerry (the sedation was your idea, you insisted the children would be fine and sleeping) the overall impression is more fear than anger, in that expression.

In the picture with the stroller, Kate is looking to the side, I think she's annoyed with photographers.

 

[Barnaby]

Hi Calikid

Colomon, I agree that in that series of pics it does seem like there is friction between Gerry & Kate. She would appear to be averting her face in what looks like anger & disgust & he is giving her a real dirty look!
Yes in the first pic that you posted Kate is looking at him with anger, I cannot really pick up on what you see in the clip at 1.04.

I think that Gerry has a real mean look at times & is probably the more arrogant of the two & yes the bruise probably does mean he grabbed Kate to control hysterics! I think that Gerry probably was the one & I have always thought that it was a blow of sorts & not a sedation related death!
However, I have to say that in my book one is as guilty as the other, I have no doubt in my mind that neither Gerry nor Kate loved Madeleine, their callous behaviour after the fact proved that. It really is irrelevant, to a point, who dealt the final blow! That child who deserved so very much more got a hugely raw deal when parents were being given out! Even if Gerry did kill Madeleine, Kate is the lowest of the low & an abomination of a mother to agree to fall in with his filty little plan to dispose of her child's body & to perpetrate the scam that they did in the name of their murdered daughter!

 

[Dolphinmomcca]

I have a question.....I pop on here from time to time, and Im sorry if this was discussed already, but WHAT would their motive be to only kill Madeleine?? Didnt they try and try to have a baby, and finally had maddy and they were REALLY happy? and if they didnt like being parents to her after all that time trying to have a child, why would they go out and try to have another one (and ended up with twins)
I guess my final question is........what motive do they have?? just curious as to what you all think!

 

[Barnaby]

I have a question.....I pop on here from time to time, and Im sorry if this was discussed already, but WHAT would their motive be to only kill Madeleine?? Didnt they try and try to have a baby, and finally had maddy and they were REALLY happy? and if they didnt like being parents to her after all that time trying to have a child, why would they go out and try to have another one (and ended up with twins)
I guess my final question is........what motive do they have?? just curious as to what you all think!

Well, I think that Madeleine was a child with some degree of special needs. They may have tried hard to have a child but perhaps Madeleine wasn't exactly the perfect child that they desired. I don't believe that she was a loved child.
If the death was not premeditated i.e. a blow struck in a fit of temper, then no motive would be neccessary, just a blatant disregard for a child that should have been much loved!

 

[colomom]

I have a question.....I pop on here from time to time, and Im sorry if this was discussed already, but WHAT would their motive be to only kill Madeleine?? Didnt they try and try to have a baby, and finally had maddy and they were REALLY happy? and if they didnt like being parents to her after all that time trying to have a child, why would they go out and try to have another one (and ended up with twins)
I guess my final question is........what motive do they have?? just curious as to what you all think!

I also do not believe that this was premeditated. A fit of anger, a lashing out, that resulted in an accidental death.

 

[SleuthMom]

Just because a couple went through in vitro doesn't mean much. How many times we read stories about adoptive parents for instance who are abusive towards the same children they promised to love and care for? I think the McCanns really wanted those kids......but they did not want the WORK that involves.

In this case particularly, as a YouTube video that was posted said (paraphrasing).....

The McCanns always wanted a large family.....







Just not in vacations....

 

[Tony Bennett]

Dophinmomcca, a clue to your question comes in a hagiographic piece about the McCanns written on 16 December 2007 by 'The Times' journalist (cough) David James Smith.

Here's the relevant extract:

QUOTE

At about 7.30pm, Kate and Gerry showered and changed and sat down to have a quiet glass of the sauvignon blanc. They were first to the table at the restaurant at 8.35 and spent some minutes talking to a couple from Hertfordshire – two more tennis players – at the next table, who were eating with their young children. As they chatted, Gerry thought how lucky he was, his children asleep nearby, he and Kate free to come and enjoy some adult time at the restaurant and not have to sit with their children, as this couple were.

UNQUOTE

P.S. There is also evidence that Madeleine was a handful and perhaps had disabilities beyond just her coloboma, plus I would have to add that there is at least an element of doubt as to whether Gerry McCann is Madeleine's father

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