Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 26

[Isabella]

Actually April - I think they are lying - either GM or JT. I'm inclined to say it is JT because GM has a witness that was standing there with him - JW. Maybe they just didn't get their story straight? I don't know. What I do know it that Jane Tanner drew a map in her own hand, dated and signed it. That map clearly shows that she walked right by GM & JW, on the same side of the street, on the same sidewalk. They would have had to have seen her.

I agree in that I find it difficult to believe all of the T9 are in on this. But I am certain that at least 4 of them are and maybe the others are just loyal friends that don't know the whole story. However, it seems by now, that at least one of them would grow a conscious (sp?) or, at the very least, begin to question what happened that night.

Why will no one stand up for Maddie? 9 people that couldn't get their stories straight? One (in my opinion) credible witness that tells us that GM & KM did not check their children every 1/2 hour, while the T9 give us such a complicated pattern of coming and going it would have been impossible for Maddie to have been snatched.

Until GM & KM step up to the plate and tell the truth, and say something that would exonerate themselves, I will continue to believe that they know exactly what happened and they are not talking because they don't want to lose the twins or their livelyhoods.

Salem

Imo Gerry Kate JT R'OB and possibly DP all know what happened.

 

[april4sky]

Actually April - I think they are lying - either GM or JT. I'm inclined to say it is JT because GM has a witness that was standing there with him - JW. Maybe they just didn't get their story straight? I don't know. What I do know it that Jane Tanner drew a map in her own hand, dated and signed it. That map clearly shows that she walked right by GM & JW, on the same side of the street, on the same sidewalk. They would have had to have seen her.

I agree in that I find it difficult to believe all of the T9 are in on this. But I am certain that at least 4 of them are and maybe the others are just loyal friends that don't know the whole story. However, it seems by now, that at least one of them would grow a conscious (sp?) or, at the very least, begin to question what happened that night.

Why will no one stand up for Maddie? 9 people that couldn't get their stories straight? One (in my opinion) credible witness that tells us that GM & KM did not check their children every 1/2 hour, while the T9 give us such a complicated pattern of coming and going it would have been impossible for Maddie to have been snatched.

Until GM & KM step up to the plate and tell the truth, and say something that would exonerate themselves, I will continue to believe that they know exactly what happened and they are not talking because they don't want to lose the twins or their livelyhoods.

Salem

Salem there is far less chance they didn't get their story straight than there is believing someone couldn't walk by two people engrosed in a conversation, in the dark and for it not to register.

And they are the only ones standing up for Madeleine and the truth.

The only ones who haven't put Madeleine first IMO are those who have knowingly lied about the McCanns and those who are happy to knowingly spread those lies.
And they are the ones wholey responsible for the damage done to the search for Madeleine - and continue to be.
Which if she is still alive is a very strange and cruel way to put Madeleine first. IMO

None of us know if Madeleine isn't alive - And assumptions don't do it for me, and never will.
And before I would condemn the parents of a missing child it would be far more important to me to know I was right than think I was.

If the McCanns are innocent then the cruelty thats been done to the parents of a missing child is not just sad but totally sick.

What we do know is that the final report has cleared them of any wrong doing and I wouldn't want to be part of what has been done, and is still being done to this family, especially after that report.

 

[Isabella]

Salem there is far less chance they didn't get their story straight than there is believing someone couldn't walk by two people engrosed in a conversation, in the dark and for it not to register.

And they are the only ones standing up for Madeleine and the truth.

The only ones who haven't put Madeleine first IMO are those who have knowingly lied and those who are happy to knowingly spread those lies.
They are wholey responsible for the damage done to the search for Madeleine - and continue to be.
Which if she is still alive is a very strange and cruel way to put Madeleine first. IMO

None of us know if Madeleine isn't alive - And asumptions don't do it for me and never will.
And before I would condemn the parents of a missing child it would be far more important to me to know I was right than think it.

If the McCanns are innocent then the cruelty thats been done to the parents of a missing child is not just sad but totally sick.

What we do know is that the final report has cleared them of any wrong doing and I wouldn't want to be part of what has been done, and is still being done to this family, especially after that report.

AGAIN i will ask you - you said in your post numbered 22o about the dogs..that they had individually tracked down the same route...and you seem to believe this and yet you seem to believe Tanner. These are DIFFERENT routes so.. ..WHICH do you claim is telling the truth? The women who different people have claimed she was NOT there and who has changed her story or the tracking dogs who quite simply have no reason to lie...and CANT lie. In effect the dogs., Gerry, Jez and i believe there was another witness are all saying Jane is a liar. You say that they didnt get there story straight - well i guess Jez kinda ruined that plan by being there.

As for these people ..are the ones who havent lied and have put her first...well if the McCanns had put her first she wouldnt be wherever she is right now. Again IF the McCanns want to put there daughter first let them go to Praia de Luz and be questioned, and let them have a lie detector test and also do a reconstruction. These are all things that can help in this investigation and would help to clear the McCanns. And you know...because they WONT do these things ( and because of others) people perceive them to be involved with whats happened to there daughter and so are unwilling to spend there tine and money on a wild good chase.

iF these parents..were innocent..and really cared about finding there daughter they would do EVERYTHING possible to find her and not just get someone to put some posters up two years after the event.

As for the McCanns the only trying to find the truth - im sorry but i dont think the McCanns would know the truth if it hit them between the eyes. MOO

 

[Texana]

rashomon - check our doc thread. It may be posted in there.

Salem

Yes, check the doc thread. A lot of my links no longer work. I wish I had printed them out, but I didn't estimate the degree to which even favorable interviews would be pulled from the Internet.

You can also try the archives of the British press. The statement from FSS was well publicized at the time.

 

[Texana]

On a side note, I think if we are going to grant the McCanns the reasonableness of not believing their child is dead, then we also have to question the reasonableness of why, barely two months after she went missing, Gerry McCann would use words like "sustain a high profile for Madeleine's disappearance in the long term."

There were many statements and evidence of acts that the McCanns were planning far into the future to keep that "high profile."

If your child is missing, in the very early days, can you reasonably plan what you'll do in five or seven months or a year for publicity? Can you plan and organize a balloon release?

The McCanns did. And for what it's worth, I don't think a "balloon release" is something that requires vast amounts of prior planning, scheduling, and advance notice.

 

[Isabella]

On a side note, I think if we are going to grant the McCanns the reasonableness of not believing their child is dead, then we also have to question the reasonableness of why, barely two months after she went missing, Gerry McCann would use words like "sustain a high profile for Madeleine's disappearance in the long term."

There were many statements and evidence of acts that the McCanns were planning far into the future to keep that "high profile."

If your child is missing, in the very early days, can you reasonably plan what you'll do in five or seven months or a year for publicity? Can you plan and organize a balloon release?

The McCanns did. And for what it's worth, I don't think a "balloon release" is something that requires vast amounts of prior planning, scheduling, and advance notice.

Within just a few weeks of her going missing they was planning events for the years anniversary - which really gave you hope - not

 

[april4sky]

AGAIN i will ask you - you said in your post numbered 22o about the dogs..that they had individually tracked down the same route....and you seem to believe this and yet you seem to believe Tanner. These are DIFFERENT routes so.. ..WHICH do you claim is telling the truth?

All were telling the truth.

Here you go...Sorry but your drawing looked to me as though they ended in the pool.

​

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]This aerial photograph shows the trail that two police sniffer dogs took as they tracked Madeleine's scent on 08 May 2007, at 11:45pm.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Two trained dogs were taken to the family's holiday apartment and followed a trail some 100 yards to a nearby car park - where British holiday-maker Derek Flack told police he had seen a man staring at the McCanns' flat.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The dogs lost the trail in the car park, and their Portuguese handlers said they could have been distracted by the odour of nearby bin bags left out in the heat.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Kate McCann had given the dog team a towel she had used to dry Madeleine after a bath, and they took her scent from that.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]*****[/FONT]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...-fits-of-suspect-released-for-first-time.html

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Mr Flack saw a man acting suspiciously around Kate and Gerry McCann's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz just before their three-year-old daughter went missing.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Mr Purser said he had seen a similar man in the weeks running up to Madeleine's disappearance.[/FONT]

Mr Flack, a freelance engineer designer from Ilford in Essex, has a holiday home in Praia da Luz, near the McCann's family's apartment at the Ocean Club resort.

On either May 2 or 3 last year – the day Madeleine disappeared – he decided to go for a walk with his partner Christine Dale.
As he neared the McCann's apartment he saw a man near a dirty white van, staring intently at the couple's ground floor veranda.
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]*******[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Isabella we both know about the white van and that it was never traced! [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]And Madeleine was all over the resort during the holiday so it wouldn't be strange for the dogs to pick up her scent in different directions. T[/FONT]hey also tracked her [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]scent to a supermarket. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The dogs did track and lose her scent at the car park - and that scent could have been left that night! [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]And the McCanns didn't have a car at this point. [/FONT]
The scent the dogs followed includes where Jane Tanner says she saw the man carrying a child!

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The fact remains there were reports of a white van and that driver has never been traced and cleared. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Whether this particular van was parked in the car park at some point that night- who knows! [/FONT]

 

[Isabella]

All were telling the truth.

Here you go...Sorry but your drawing looked to me as though they ended in the pool.

​

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]This aerial photograph shows the trail that two police sniffer dogs took as they tracked Madeleine's scent on 08 May 2007, at 11:45pm.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Two trained dogs were taken to the family's holiday apartment and followed a trail some 100 yards to a nearby car park - where British holiday-maker Derek Flack told police he had seen a man staring at the McCanns' flat.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The dogs lost the trail in the car park, and their Portuguese handlers said they could have been distracted by the odour of nearby bin bags left out in the heat.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Kate McCann had given the dog team a towel she had used to dry Madeleine after a bath, and they took her scent from that.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]*****[/FONT]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...-fits-of-suspect-released-for-first-time.html

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Mr Flack saw a man acting suspiciously around Kate and Gerry McCann's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz just before their three-year-old daughter went missing.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Mr Purser said he had seen a similar man in the weeks running up to Madeleine's disappearance.[/FONT]

Mr Flack, a freelance engineer designer from Ilford in Essex, has a holiday home in Praia da Luz, near the McCann's family's apartment at the Ocean Club resort.

On either May 2 or 3 last year – the day Madeleine disappeared – he decided to go for a walk with his partner Christine Dale.
As he neared the McCann's apartment he saw a man near a dirty white van, staring intently at the couple's ground floor veranda.
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]*******[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Isabella we both know about the white van and that it was never traced! [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]And Madeleine was all over the resort during the holiday so it wouldn't be strange for the dogs to pick up her scent in different directions. T[/FONT]hey also tracked her [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]scent to a supermarket. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The dogs did track and lose her scent at the car park - and that scent could have been left that night! [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]And the McCanns didn't have a car at this point. [/FONT]
The scent the dogs followed includes where Jane Tanner says she saw the man carrying a child!

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The fact remains there were reports of a white van and that driver has never been traced and cleared. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Whether this particular van was parked in the car park at some point that night- who knows! [/FONT]

Sorry...but i do not like believe Jane Tanner. I will never believe Jane Tanner. I will never beleive the McCanns. And i wish Madeleine had been born to people that would have loved and protected her instead of putting there pleasure first.

 

[april4sky]

Sorry...but i do not like believe Jane Tanner. I will never believe Jane Tanner. I will never beleive the McCanns. And i wish Madeleine had been born to people that would have loved and protected her instead of putting there pleasure first.

You have made your "opinions" very clear Isabella....No worries!..everyones entitled to their own opinions.

The trouble comes, as in Madeleines case when opinions get mixed up with the facts.

 

[Isabella]

You have made your "opinions" very clear Isabella....No worries!..everyones entitled to their own opinions.

The trouble comes, as in Madeleines case when opinions get mixed up with the facts.

Yes obviously ... people do seem to have a habit of getting mixed up with the facts in this case

 

[rashomon]

All were telling the truth.

Here you go...Sorry but your drawing looked to me as though they ended in the pool.

​

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]This aerial photograph shows the trail that two police sniffer dogs took as they tracked Madeleine's scent on 08 May 2007, at 11:45pm.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Two trained dogs were taken to the family's holiday apartment and followed a trail some 100 yards to a nearby car park - where British holiday-maker Derek Flack told police he had seen a man staring at the McCanns' flat.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The dogs lost the trail in the car park, and their Portuguese handlers said they could have been distracted by the odour of nearby bin bags left out in the heat.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Kate McCann had given the dog team a towel she had used to dry Madeleine after a bath, and they took her scent from that.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]*****[/FONT]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...-fits-of-suspect-released-for-first-time.html

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Mr Flack saw a man acting suspiciously around Kate and Gerry McCann's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz just before their three-year-old daughter went missing.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Mr Purser said he had seen a similar man in the weeks running up to Madeleine's disappearance.[/FONT]

Mr Flack, a freelance engineer designer from Ilford in Essex, has a holiday home in Praia da Luz, near the McCann's family's apartment at the Ocean Club resort.

On either May 2 or 3 last year – the day Madeleine disappeared – he decided to go for a walk with his partner Christine Dale.
As he neared the McCann's apartment he saw a man near a dirty white van, staring intently at the couple's ground floor veranda.
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]*******[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Isabella we both know about the white van and that it was never traced! [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]And Madeleine was all over the resort during the holiday so it wouldn't be strange for the dogs to pick up her scent in different directions. T[/FONT]hey also tracked her [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]scent to a supermarket. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The dogs did track and lose her scent at the car park - and that scent could have been left that night! [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]And the McCanns didn't have a car at this point. [/FONT]
The scent the dogs followed includes where Jane Tanner says she saw the man carrying a child!

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The fact remains there were reports of a white van and that driver has never been traced and cleared. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Whether this particular van was parked in the car park at some point that night- who knows! [/FONT]

Is that correct: the McCanns did not have a car when Madeleine vanished?
When exactly did the McCanns hire the Renault Scenic?

 

[Isabella]

Is that correct: the McCanns did not have a car when Madeleine vanished?
When exactly did the McCanns hire the Renault Scenic?

The McCanns did not have a car the night of Madeleines "disappearance". IIRC they got the car almost a month after she disappeared -- just before they went to Rome I think. However at the time of the "disappearance" RoB did have a car .. and was missing from the bar most of the night. Jane Tanner is his partner. My personal opinion..if she was anywhere that night it was keeping a look out for OBrien to talk Madeleiene out.

 

[april4sky]

Is that correct: the McCanns did not have a car when Madeleine vanished?
When exactly did the McCanns hire the Renault Scenic?

Hi rashomom,

Yes it's true, they didn't hire the car until after they had moved from the apartment.

http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache...McCanns+hire+the+car&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

including the hire car the McCanns rented 25 days after Madeleine disappeared.

*******
And the trip to Huelva "when it has been claimed they transferred and disposed of Madeleines rotting body" didn't take place until the 3rd August - 3 months after she went missing.
Even though travelling in the car with them were TWO other people. One of them a cameraman.

 

[Texana]

Is that correct: the McCanns did not have a car when Madeleine vanished?
When exactly did the McCanns hire the Renault Scenic?

"Did not have a car" is not the same as "had no access to a car."

They had the car about a month after Madeleine disappeared. The exact date has not to the best of my knowledge been released because the McCanns did not have to make that public.

The mileage on the Renault when the McCanns did turn it in was considered by many people to be quite high. The McCanns said that was from making multiple trips to the Portuguese airport to pick up relatives, etc.

If indeed, someone parked a commercial delivery vehicle on the grounds of a resort and stared (as someone reportedly saw) later at the McCanns' apartment, that logically does not mean there is any connection to the McCanns. For all we know, the person staring was someone lost in thought and thinking:

a) Damn, but I hate my job just sitting here and waiting for that jerk I work with
b) Damn, but I hate my wife
c) Damn, but I hate my ex-wife
d) Damn, but her sister is hot
e) Damn, but I forgot to pick up cigarettes

And so on, and so on. Again, let's compare that reported account to the cadaver dog and the blood hound: The dogs, unencumbered by human emotions or opinions, separately alert on the same spots for blood and decomposing human body chemical.

 

[rashomon]

"Did not have a car" is not the same as "had no access to a car."

They had the car about a month after Madeleine disappeared. The exact date has not to the best of my knowledge been released because the McCanns did not have to make that public.

The mileage on the Renault when the McCanns did turn it in was considered by many people to be quite high. The McCanns said that was from making multiple trips to the Portuguese airport to pick up relatives, etc.

If indeed, someone parked a commercial delivery vehicle on the grounds of a resort and stared (as someone reportedly saw) later at the McCanns' apartment, that logically does not mean there is any connection to the McCanns. For all we know, the person staring was someone lost in thought and thinking:

a) Damn, but I hate my job just sitting here and waiting for that jerk I work with
b) Damn, but I hate my wife
c) Damn, but I hate my ex-wife
d) Damn, but her sister is hot
e) Damn, but I forgot to pick up cigarettes

And so on, and so on. Again, let's compare that reported account to the cadaver dog and the blood hound: The dogs, unencumbered by human emotions or opinions, separately alert on the same spots for blood and decomposing human body chemical.

The impossibility to establish a coherent time line for that fatal night is one of the bigget stumbling blocks in the McCann case. Whoever was responsible for Madeleine's disappearance, the messed-up time line played into the hands of this person (or persons).
Assuming the McCanns were involved, what theories exist as to how they managed to hide the body?

 

[Isabella]

The impossibility to establish a coherent time line for that fatal night is one of the bigget stumbling blocks in the McCann case. Whoever was responsible for Madeleine's disappearance, the messed-up time line played into the hands of this person (or persons).
Assuming the McCanns were involved, what theories exist as to how they managed to hide the body?

There are several tbh, that she was thrown out to sea , buried in Huelva ( i think its called), taken to a pet cemetry , possibly put down one of the tunnels they have there. IMO she was buried somewhere for a few weeks and then taken to her final destination wherever that may be.

 

[Isabella]

Incidentally..before I went to bed last night i re read the statements of Gerry Jane and Jez. Not only do Gerry and Jez both say she wasnt there..they both state they werent where she claimed they were even. And yet people still believe her? Wow!

In her statement Jane comes over as a bumbling idiot. Um umm umm umm. I would have loved to have seen her in court answering questions..they would have had a field day with her IMO.

Also why the heck was Gerry harrasing Jez at home and work following the "abduction"? Trying to find out what Jez had said to the police perhaps?

 

[Isabella]

We keep hearing the Public Prosecutor have cleared the McCanns...therefore she was "kidnapped"

From a report in CDM by the Public Prosecutor

http://www.correiomanha.pt/Noticia.aspx ... 1D21E62A19


This is in Portugese so key points in English

1. Investigation – Dispatch defends the little girl’s death but clears the McCann couple
2. Public Ministry admits homicide

3. The Public Ministry (PM) admits that Madeleine was killed, discards the abduction theory, but does not believe that the McCann couple is involved in their daughter’s death. In the archiving dispatch, prosecutor Magalhães e Menezes says that Kate and Gerry were neglectful, but drops the crime of abandonment and closes the investigation with criticism over the Polícia Judiciária’s work.
4. José de Magalhães e Menezes assumes there is “a high degree of probability that a homicide took place” – he goes further than Gonçalo Amaral who always spoke of an accidental death – but he does not believe in the involvement of the McCann couple, considering that they have always manifested a normal behaviour. On the other hand, the prosecutor alleges that the McCanns had neither the time nor the means to conceal the body, remembering that on the evening of the 3rd of May 2007, the couple had been in Portugal for a few days only and their routine was limited to the limits of the ‘Ocean Club’: “They did not now the surrounding terrain and, apart from their English friends, they had no contacts in Portugal”.
5.The prosecutor does however fail to point out any other justification for the disappearance of the little girl, after concluding that “no consistent indications were found indicating the execution of an abduction” – defended by the McCanns.
6. Despite “clearing” the couple, the Public Ministry writes a list of questions that remain unexplained, namely why the procedures of surveillance over the children, by the McCanns and their friends, were changed that night and how the twins failed to wake up in the middle of the confusion – after Kate gave the alert about the disappearance of her daughter. Concerning the constitution of the McCanns as arguidos, he says it is lawful and legitimate and concerning the case, he concludes that “Maddie’s disappearance is a case from real life”.

I think this makes it more than clear that he does NOT beleive Madeleine was abducted or for that matter unfortunately that she is alive

 

[Texana]

So one of the main reasons the Portuguese authorities cleared the McCanns was their belief that as strangers to the area, the McCanns could not have figured out a way to dispose of Madeleine's remains.

So if they underestimated the McCanns (or one of their companions) in any way, then this is no longer true.

It's not a fact that the McCanns couldn't have done this, because it hasn't and can't be conclusively proven one way or another (absent an eyewitness or other physical evidence.)

Therefore, the McCanns were cleared in large part by opinion.

 

[Isabella]

So one of the main reasons the Portuguese authorities cleared the McCanns was their belief that as strangers to the area, the McCanns could not have figured out a way to dispose of Madeleine's remains.

So if they underestimated the McCanns (or one of their companions) in any way, then this is no longer true.

It's not a fact that the McCanns couldn't have done this, because it hasn't and can't be conclusively proven one way or another (absent an eyewitness or other physical evidence.)

Therefore, the McCanns were cleared in large part by opinion.

From what he is saying she died in the apartment - and bearing in mind he has seen all the files and we havent he must have seen something to make him believe this.

Logically - for him to say that the McCanns didnt know anyone so they couldnt have done it is stupid. Lets face it how long would it have taken for eg to put her body in the sea and get back? And no i dont think thats what they did but..it would have taken maybe 10 -15 mins to get there and back. My point basically is...they didnt need much time and not just that they wasnt the only ones there ... there was enough of them there to help the McCanns.

Btw you said about an absent eye witness. Martin Smith claims the guy he saw resembled Gerry very strongly.