Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 26

[april4sky]

We keep hearing the Public Prosecutor have cleared the McCanns...therefore she was "kidnapped"

From a report in CDM by the Public Prosecutor

http://www.correiomanha.pt/Noticia.aspx ... 1D21E62A19
This is in Portugese so key points in English

1. Investigation – Dispatch defends the little girl’s death but clears the McCann couple
2. Public Ministry admits homicide

3. The Public Ministry (PM) admits that Madeleine was killed, discards the abduction theory, but does not believe that the McCann couple is involved in their daughter’s death. In the archiving dispatch, prosecutor Magalhães e Menezes says that Kate and Gerry were neglectful, but drops the crime of abandonment and closes the investigation with criticism over the Polícia Judiciária’s work.
4. José de Magalhães e Menezes assumes there is “a high degree of probability that a homicide took place” – he goes further than Gonçalo Amaral who always spoke of an accidental death – but he does not believe in the involvement of the McCann couple, considering that they have always manifested a normal behaviour. On the other hand, the prosecutor alleges that the McCanns had neither the time nor the means to conceal the body, remembering that on the evening of the 3rd of May 2007, the couple had been in Portugal for a few days only and their routine was limited to the limits of the ‘Ocean Club’: “They did not now the surrounding terrain and, apart from their English friends, they had no contacts in Portugal”.
5.The prosecutor does however fail to point out any other justification for the disappearance of the little girl, after concluding that “no consistent indications were found indicating the execution of an abduction” – defended by the McCanns.
6. Despite “clearing” the couple, the Public Ministry writes a list of questions that remain unexplained, namely why the procedures of surveillance over the children, by the McCanns and their friends, were changed that night and how the twins failed to wake up in the middle of the confusion – after Kate gave the alert about the disappearance of her daughter. Concerning the constitution of the McCanns as arguidos, he says it is lawful and legitimate and concerning the case, he concludes that “Maddie’s disappearance is a case from real life”.


I think this makes it more than clear that he does NOT beleive Madeleine was abducted or for that matter unfortunately that she is alive

Nowhere does the Portuguese newspaper say they interviewed Prosecutor Magalhães de Menezes for this article!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2504246/Madeleine-McCann-files-Portuguese-prosecutors-criticise-police.html

Detectives' inability even to establish whether the toddler is alive or dead epitomised the inquiry's shortcummings, said Public Prosecuters Jose de Magalhaes and Joao Melchior Gomes.

"No element of proof whatsoever was found which allows us to form any lucid, sensible, serious, and honest conclusion about the circumstances (of Madeleine's disappearance).

But Mr Magalhaes said Mr and Mrs McCann did not believe their children were in any danger when they left Madeleine and her younger twin siblings.
"It is obvious that neither of the defendants, Gerald or Kate, acted with intent," they said.

Mr Magalhaes said all the theories - including the possibility that the couple had accidently killed theit daughter and disposed of her body - had come to nothing.

He concluded: "While it is a fact that Madeleiene disappeared from the Ocean Club apartmenet, the circumstances and manner of how this happened is not known."
************
According to the Final report - after months of investigation they still do not know if Madeleine is dead or alive.
And this tells us which newspaper is correct.

So it appears either the Portuguese newspaper got their facts wrong or the translater did - either in error or on purpose. :waitasec:

 

[Isabella]

Nowhere does the Portuguese newspaper say they interviewed Prosecutor Magalhães de Menezes for this article!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2504246/Madeleine-McCann-files-Portuguese-prosecutors-criticise-police.html

I commented about a article in the CDM paper and NOT the Telegraph

And the person who translated it i trust 100% - she has no reason to lie.

Now the Telegraph..whether they translated it wrong or missed parts out is another story - MOO

 

[april4sky]

I commented about a article in the CDM paper and NOT the Telegraph

And the person who translated it i trust 100% - she has no reason to lie.

Now the Telegraph..whether they translated it wrong or missed parts out is another story - MOO

Maybe she just can't translate.

 

[badhorsie]

Hi rashomom,

Yes it's true, they didn't hire the car until after they had moved from the apartment.

http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache...McCanns+hire+the+car&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

including the hire car the McCanns rented 25 days after Madeleine disappeared.

*******
And the trip to Huelva "when it has been claimed they transferred and disposed of Madeleines rotting body" didn't take place until the 3rd August - 3 months after she went missing.
Even though travelling in the car with them were TWO other people. One of them a cameraman.

And the cameraman was a personal friend:waitasec:

 

[Jayelles]

And the cameraman was a personal friend:waitasec:

Another one to add to the conspiracy?

What's the current total?

 

[Isabella]

Maybe she just can't translate.

She is in fact Portugese and was verified by another Portugese person - so yes im sure she could speak her own language

 

[Isabella]

Excuse me, this is a FACT. He filmed them for a documentry which was shown on TV here in the uk. During this doc. he stated that he was a friend.

And I am not a conspiracy theorist, another fact.

Get back in your cages Trolls
:behindbar:behindbar

LOL

You mean Jon Corner I guess? He seems another interesting character. Some things he said were quite "odd". Then again..everything that lot say is quite odd lol.

 

[Texana]

Maybe she just can't translate.

So find another native Portuguese speaker to translate this.

There's a Portuguese embassy somewhere in Australia, if you don't know anyone personally. Go for it.

I'll print this out in the mean time and take it to the person I know who speaks Brazilian Portuguese. (The ballet community of the Little Texanas is very international.) She translated the last article very nicely for me and it matched perfectly the posted translation.

 

[Isabella]

I have no idea how long this article will keep up - or the comments be opened anyhow...but..Jayelles states I was wrong about how people here feel about the McCanns

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK...edia_Help_Is_Vital_In_Missing_Persons_Inquiry

Read the article..and then the comments...

It will make it VERY clear how people here feel about the McCanns and Clarence Mitchell.

 

[april4sky]

So find another native Portuguese speaker to translate this.

There's a Portuguese embassy somewhere in Australia, if you don't know anyone personally. Go for it.

I'll print this out in the mean time and take it to the person I know who speaks Brazilian Portuguese. (The ballet community of the Little Texanas is very international.) She translated the last article very nicely for me and it matched perfectly the posted translation.

Texana the translation is irrelevant.

Nowhere it the article does it state portuguese Prosecuters Jose de Magalhaes gave an interview for the article.

The false claims are the reporters "spin" on the final report - not the truth.

Check out the final report.

 

[Texana]

I have no idea how long this article will keep up - or the comments be opened anyhow...but..Jayelles states I was wrong about how people here feel about the McCanns

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK...edia_Help_Is_Vital_In_Missing_Persons_Inquiry

Read the article..and then the comments...

It will make it VERY clear how people here feel about the McCanns and Clarence Mitchell.

For someone who held a cabinet level position in journalism and works in PR, Clarence has a positive genius for often hitting the exact wrong note. Who would have said that it was "hugely entertaining" to imagine which Hollywood stars would play the McCanns in some movie or television adaptation of their tragedy? (Hint: Clarence, stay on message.)

I personally believe that being named "Clarence" means one's parents are so insensitive to social issues that they name you "Clarence" regardless of how much horrific teasing you endure as a child.

Or perhaps Clarence is more popular as a name in Britain today, or it's popular or understood within Clarence Mitchell's socioeconomic group, and young Clarence grew up quite happily secure with himself. I freely admit I could be wrong here, and that Clarence comes across as such a jerk because he is, well, you know...despite the best efforts of his parents.

Perhaps all their lives they struggled to teach Clarence some semblance of awareness or social sensitivity to others' feelings and yet, Clarence still is...Clarence.

 

[Isabella]

IMO although the McCanns havent helped themselves...Clarence Mitchell has made them look a thousand times worse. For someone who has held such a high profile job he is remarkably simple imo.

And no Clarence isnt a popular name here. I think ive only ever heard of one other person with that name.

 

[passionflower]

I have not studied this case, I did some lurking when she first became missing.
For research on another thread, what phase was the moon in that night little
maddy went missing??? TIA

 

[Jayelles]

For someone who held a cabinet level position in journalism and works in PR, Clarence has a positive genius for often hitting the exact wrong note. Who would have said that it was "hugely entertaining" to imagine which Hollywood stars would play the McCanns in some movie or television adaptation of their tragedy? (Hint: Clarence, stay on message.)

I personally believe that being named "Clarence" means one's parents are so insensitive to social issues that they name you "Clarence" regardless of how much horrific teasing you endure as a child.

Or perhaps Clarence is more popular as a name in Britain today, or it's popular or understood within Clarence Mitchell's socioeconomic group, and young Clarence grew up quite happily secure with himself. I freely admit I could be wrong here, and that Clarence comes across as such a jerk because he is, well, you know...despite the best efforts of his parents.

Perhaps all their lives they struggled to teach Clarence some semblance of awareness or social sensitivity to others' feelings and yet, Clarence still is...Clarence.

You are right - there are plenty of immature school bullies who would make ignorant snide remarks about someone's name and make assumptions about their parents.

In fact, Clarence is a perfectly respectable name even if it isn't common. Also, some parents like to keep names in the family. Maybe he has a noble ancestor called Clarence? There are loads of Clarences in war records. Maybe his grandfather died in the trenches and his mother thought it would be nice to call her son after her father?

I think it is very ignorant to make snide comments about someone's name. Why not leave it to the school-age bullies?

For the record, there are two other Clarence Mitchells. Both Amercians. One was the "Lion in the Lobby" black civil rights activist and the other was a baseball player who played for the NY Giants and the Detroit Tigers.

Do you think their parents needed a lesson in sensitivity too?

I love to meet people with different names. There's often an interesting story behind it. I once met a woman called Key. She told me it had been in her family for generations.

 

[Texana]

You are right - there are plenty of immature school bullies who would make ignorant snide remarks about someone's name and make assumptions about their parents.

In fact, Clarence is a perfectly respectable name even if it isn't common. Also, some parents like to keep names in the family. Maybe he has a noble ancestor called Clarence? There are loads of Clarences in war records. Maybe his grandfather died in the trenches and his mother thought it would be nice to call her son after her father?

I think it is very ignorant to make snide comments about someone's name. Why not leave it to the school-age bullies?

For the record, there are two other Clarence Mitchells. Both Amercians. One was the "Lion in the Lobby" black civil rights activist and the other was a baseball player who played for the NY Giants and the Detroit Tigers.

Do you think their parents needed a lesson in sensitivity too?

I love to meet people with different names. There's often an interesting story behind it. I once met a woman called Key. She told me it had been in her family for generations.

I think it is also very unfair to castigate a child for his name. You can imagine as a teacher how many times I see this issue.

There are interesting stories behind names and then there are just parents who think more of their own needs than their children.

Mr. Texana was named after his father and grew up in the sixties and early seventies with a "grandfather" first name and a middle name that was a last name, that his parents used for his first name. This was at a time when most boys had names like Steve, Darren, Gary, Joe, or Todd. His siblings got the trendy popular names (Michelle, for example.)

He hated it. To this day, he has to repeat his name several times before people understand it. And explain it, and listen to it said wrong, and mispronounced, and misspelled. (The last name is usually said wrong, as well.)

So while it's understandably a nice experience to hear stories from people whose families instilled pride in their children about their names, you are not being empathetic to people who would just like for once to introduce themselves without talking about themselves. Twenty years ago it was not that usual to have unusual names.

My daughter mentioned yesterday there is a girl at her school whose name is constantly mispronounced by substitutes. They read the name in a perfectly phonetic appropriate way. However, the child's parents put the accent on another syllable. This high school, kid sits there silently not responding, taking an absence, getting marked as "skipping" simply because she hates drawing attention to herself and correcting the way her name is said.

I have a whole lot of sympathy for children, not so much for their parents on this issue.

Clarence was a popular name in the thirties and twenties in the United States. For women, "ene" names were very trendy--Pearlene, Mearlene, Irlene, etc. Mildred or Berniece were other popular names.

I personally believe family names are lovely and traditional and that us why middle names were created.

In certain circles, unusual or family names are de rigeur. That's why I asked if perhaps it was within the realm of normal for Clarence to grow up with that moniker.

I'm just being charitable in ascribing Clarence Mitchell's lack of sensitivity to something outside of himself.

And on a side note, parents who are insensitive to their children often raise children who haven't a clue how badly they come across.

 

[Smokecurtain]

Scandi....Here are the "facts" as confirmed in the Final report.

From the Final report thread
Posted by colomom - Post 8 Page 13 and 14

According to that police force, the disappearance would have occurred at 22H40 (later on it was verified that the detection and the subsequent alarm of the same, in reality happened, between 22H00 and 22H10 of the day 3 of May of 2007, in one of the apartments of the tourist resort ‘Ocean Club’, located at Vila da Luz, Lagos, where a family composed by a couple and 3 children under aged were staying.
******
Posted by me General Discussion 24 Post 400
First phone call to the police....

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:hFcq5_vqAIoJ:www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/apr/11/madeleinemccann+local+police+arrive+before+detecti ve%27s+madeleine&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=au

10.15pm: Oldfield goes down to the 24-hour reception at the bottom of the hill to raise the alarm. Police are called.
10.30pm: Local police are first to arrive on the scene.
11.10pm: Detectives from the Policia Judiciaria (PJ) arrive having been contacted by police constables.
The Detectives from the Policia Judiciaria are the ones who didn’t arrive until 11.10pm.

And all this fits in with Mrs Fenn who after the first call offered to phone the police and was told they had already been called.
********
And from my post... General Discussion thread 24 Post No. 230

The first call the McCann made was to the police!! Confirmed by Portuguese prosecutors!!

http://www.the-news.net/cgi-bin/google.pl?id=971-2

"Prosecutors also confirm that the first call made by the couple after their daughter went missing was to the police, and not to a British television station as had been widely claimed in some sections of the Portuguese media quoting police sources."

Contacting the Media…Posted by colomom - From the Final report thread Websleuths post No 9.
Quote:
“It should be pointed out, in terms of the media knowledge and divulgation, that witness RACHEL MAMPILLY, at around 2 a.m. on the morning of the 4th, assumes to have contacted the official British television BBC, through someone that she knew, reporting the disappearance and asking for it to be broadcast.”

April4Sky
what I learned from the DVD files:
22:00 alarm risen by Kate McCann From Kate McCanns own statement she did an initial search about 3 times before raising the alarm.
(note that this is the version of McCann and friends, the time of the alarm is not corroborated by any witness outside the group. In fact, when you read the statements from other witnesses the time the alarm was risen could have been more towards 22:30
For instance the Fenn statement:
"During that day nothing unusual happened until around 22:30 when, she was alone by then, she heard a woman screaming hysterically "we've let her down", which was repeated several times very upset. She went to her veranda and realized that it was the mother who screamed furiously. She asked the father, Gerry, what was happening, and he said that a child had been abducted. Asked she said she hadn't left her home and talked to Gerry from her veranda, which lets see the terrace of the ground floor. From the start it seemed strange to her that he had concluded a child had been abducted, because he didn't mention it was his daughter nor contemplated other scenarios. She had offered her help to Gerry, telling him to use her phone in order to contact the authorities, to which he replied it had already be done. This would have happened slightly after 22:30"
The statement of, Jeronimo Salcedas, a Fitness Instructor, illustrates that there was a lot of confusion about te time some events occured:
"I saw Dianne Webster sat on her own in the Tapas bar and asked where the other members of the group were, to be told by Mrs Webster that one of the group’s children was missing. In his statement to the police, he noted: “I saw a man who I knew later to be Madeleine’s father running to the pool and to the children’s play area in the ‘Tapas zone’, as if looking for something”.
He goes on: “It immediately occurred to me, after having had that conversation with the older lady [Dianne Webster], that the child had not been found. I offered to alert the Millennium Restaurant employees and the man agreed. He then ran out again to keep searching. I think this was between 9.30pm and 10.00pm, I can’t recall exactly”.
(In fact, it seems he is mistaken a whole hour.)
22:40 Registered call to GNR (local police)
This is strange, why wait 40 minutes to call the police, when you immediately know for sure that an abduction took place?
I still think this gap is crucial, because when the alarm was rised later than 22:00, more towards 22:30 it is possible that mr. Smith saw Gerry with Madeleine at approx. 21:50 near the church.
After rising the alarm, instead of frantically searching for a possibly wandered off Madeleine, the whole bunch of tapas (expt M. Oldfield, his wife and Dianne Webster) stayed in the appartment, opening cupboards, closets etc, contaminating possible forensic evidence the "abductor" could have left (while the were sure that an abduction took place).
During that time they also ripped of the cover of a stickerbook of Madeleine to produce a timeline that was ready even before the local police arrived, complete with the sighting of bundleman by Jane Tanner.
When the PJ arrived (somewhere between midnight and 00.30, because they had to come from Portimao) they already phoned relatives, a priest and the media.
All these events are fact, corroborated with witness statements as f.i. Emma Knight, the hotel manager who was with them in the appartment while waiting for the police.

 

[Isabella]

April4Sky
what I learned from the DVD files:
22:00 alarm risen by Kate McCann From Kate McCanns own statement she did an initial search about 3 times before raising the alarm.
(note that this is the version of McCann and friends, the time of the alarm is not corroborated by any witness outside the group. In fact, when you read the statements from other witnesses the time the alarm was risen could have been more towards 22:30
For instance the Fenn statement:
"During that day nothing unusual happened until around 22:30 when, she was alone by then, she heard a woman screaming hysterically "we've let her down", which was repeated several times very upset. She went to her veranda and realized that it was the mother who screamed furiously. She asked the father, Gerry, what was happening, and he said that a child had been abducted. Asked she said she hadn't left her home and talked to Gerry from her veranda, which lets see the terrace of the ground floor. From the start it seemed strange to her that he had concluded a child had been abducted, because he didn't mention it was his daughter nor contemplated other scenarios. She had offered her help to Gerry, telling him to use her phone in order to contact the authorities, to which he replied it had already be done. This would have happened slightly after 22:30"
The statement of, Jeronimo Salcedas, a Fitness Instructor, illustrates that there was a lot of confusion about te time some events occured:
"I saw Dianne Webster sat on her own in the Tapas bar and asked where the other members of the group were, to be told by Mrs Webster that one of the group’s children was missing. In his statement to the police, he noted: “I saw a man who I knew later to be Madeleine’s father running to the pool and to the children’s play area in the ‘Tapas zone’, as if looking for something”.
He goes on: “It immediately occurred to me, after having had that conversation with the older lady [Dianne Webster], that the child had not been found. I offered to alert the Millennium Restaurant employees and the man agreed. He then ran out again to keep searching. I think this was between 9.30pm and 10.00pm, I can’t recall exactly”.
(In fact, it seems he is mistaken a whole hour.)
22:40 Registered call to GNR (local police)
This is strange, why wait 40 minutes to call the police, when you immediately know for sure that an abduction took place?
I still think this gap is crucial, because when the alarm was rised later than 22:00, more towards 22:30 it is possible that mr. Smith saw Gerry with Madeleine at approx. 21:50 near the church.
After rising the alarm, instead of frantically searching for a possibly wandered off Madeleine, the whole bunch of tapas (expt M. Oldfield, his wife and Dianne Webster) stayed in the appartment, opening cupboards, closets etc, contaminating possible forensic evidence the "abductor" could have left (while the were sure that an abduction took place).
During that time they also ripped of the cover of a stickerbook of Madeleine to produce a timeline that was ready even before the local police arrived, complete with the sighting of bundleman by Jane Tanner.
When the PJ arrived (somewhere between midnight and 00.30, because they had to come from Portimao) they already phoned relatives, a priest and the media.
All these events are fact, corroborated with witness statements as f.i. Emma Knight, the hotel manager who was with them in the appartment while waiting for the police.

Good post

When Gerry phoned relatives that night...he allegedly immediately told them it was important that they believed that Madeleine had been kidnapped. Like it said in your post why was it so important that everyone immediately believed it was a kidnap? From other statements we know that Madeleine was a sleepwalker...and also that she was prone to not coming in when called..so..given that Kate would never really answer as to whether Madeleine was sleeping when she went out..IF she was alive at that point..how did they know she hadnt followed them out and gone somewhere? How could they disregard that possibility?

And yes...I believe Martin Smiths version also.

 

[april4sky]

Respectfully snipped....

April4Sky
what I learned from the DVD files:
22:00 alarm risen by Kate McCann From Kate McCanns own statement she did an initial search about 3 times before raising the alarm.
(note that this is the version of McCann and friends, the time of the alarm is not corroborated by any witness outside the group.

Smokecurtain this is in the link you posted.
From the PJ's Final report.....

"According to that police force, the disappearance would have occurred at 22H40 (later on it was verified that the detection and the subsequent alarm of the same, in reality happened, between 22H00 and 22H10"

So the PJ were able to verify the first call to the police.

 

[Smokecurtain]

Respectfully snipped....
Smokecurtain this is in the link you posted.
From the PJ's Final report.....

"According to that police force, the disappearance would have occurred at 22H40 (later on it was verified that the detection and the subsequent alarm of the same, in reality happened, between 22H00 and 22H10"

So the PJ were able to verify the first call to the police.

Sorry April4Sky,
but I think you are misreading wat is ment here: There is a registered call at GNR at 22:40. No discussion about that. Thus the police initially thought that was the time of the disappearance.
But police forces later on verified that the detection (of the disappearance) and the subsequent alarm (rised by Kate McCann) occurred between 22:00 and 22:10 (based on McCann produced timeline).
That is how I read this. Note that the initial thought of the PJ - that the disappearance happened at 22:40 (the time of the registered call) is not that strange. Why wait 40 minutes to call the police why you immediately are sure that an abduction took place?

 

[Isabella]

Sorry April4Sky,
but I think you are misreading wat is ment here: There is a registered call at GNR at 22:40. No discussion about that. Thus the police initially thought that was the time of the disappearance.
But police forces later on verified that the detection (of the disappearance) and the subsequent alarm (rised by Kate McCann) occurred between 22:00 and 22:10 (based on McCann produced timeline).
That is how I read this. Note that the initial thought of the PJ - that the disappearance happened at 22:40 (the time of the registered call) is not that strange. Why wait 40 minutes to call the police why you immediately are sure that an abduction took place?

I think the main question for me would be..where was Gerry between 10 and 10.40...and who was there to verify his whereabouts? And Plzzzzzzzz dont say Charlotte Pennington.