Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect #2

[mrjitty]

I don't know all the backstory to this, but, really, why would the mother necessarily have staged the window? Isn't it entirely plausible that the abductor came in or out that way? Especially if the abductor was an experienced burglar?

For one thing, it's the closest access to the child, so it's the quickest and surest for snatch and get out, it would take only seconds. It doesn't involve crossing any rooms and potentially being seen if someone is unexpectedly in the apartment. It guarantees you won't run into someone coming in one of the doors. It guarantees someone won't realize anything is wrong until they come into the bedroom. If someone comes in the room and notices the window open, they themselves are unlikely to be able to follow you out the window. They have to take the time to go around and out the door, and by then you're long gone.

Well this is where we get into stuff that is impossible to know unless the Tapas group finally resolves all the contradictions in its evidence.

But we do know it was not the point of ingress because the shutters would have to be broken and there was simply no evidence of it. Instead the patio door was unlocked which neatly explains the lack of evidence of forced entry.

And why leave via the window when you can just walk out either door?

Finally if the shutters were up, and windows open, everyone approaching via the front door had to see this

IMO this is why Gerry finally admitted he never came in the front door

 

[mrjitty]

Wasn't that the way the child was being carried in the Tannerman sighting that was explained away? I thought in the Smith sighting the child was being carried upright with head resting on shoulder and the Smiths said something about seeing Gerry carry one of the twins the same way?

Yes.

 

[mrjitty]

Short version, if we find out German guy came in and out the unlocked patio door and abducted Maddie that way, at the later time, Tapas have some 'splaining to do.

 

[Andreee]

I've got a feeling it wasn't dark though in the back of my mind. Street lights good?

Yes, I believe there were streetlights on, but would have to check on that!

 

[Lusitana]

Short version, if we find out German guy came in and out the unlocked patio door and abducted Maddie that way, at the later time, Tapas have some 'splaining to do.

Tapas is inside the resort, right in the middle of it, surrounded by the tennis courts and the pool. Whoever got into the McCann's apartment could do so from a public street, I believe. Where is the patio?

 

[mrjitty]

Tapas is inside the resort, right in the middle of it, surrounded by the tennis courts and the pool. Whoever got into the McCann's apartment could do so from a public street, I believe. Where is the patio?

Gerry now says he left the patio door unlocked and that the street (front) door was locked

So there never was any need to break in, a burglar could just walk in the unlocked patio door on the resort side.

Whether we can believe that door was actually unlocked I don't know, but it would explain why there was no evidence of forced entry

 

[buggiegirl]

It sounds right to me. At least that's the way it looks in the drawing.

I thought that drawing was from the Tanner sighting? The one that ended up being a dad and his kid. Wasn’t the Smith sighting the one where he has the kid on his shoulder/chest?

 

[Mrs Marple]

Now also reports of video footage of a girl 15-20 and a woman 45-50.

Sounds like he is very complicated and not easily profiled

He may have gone in through the door and left through the window. There wasn't much time between the time the friend of the family checked on the kids and Kate McCann checked in and found her missing. Maybe the suspect heard her coming and went out the window. Jmo

Photos show it was quite a drop, unless the was an accomplice

Red flag no 1

When a convicted 30 year old paedophile phone records show he was in the vicinity of the disappearance of a child

Red flag no 2

When same convicted paedophile changes owners on his prized motor the very next day of the disappearance.

Why are we finding out about these 2 major red flags 13 years later.

I wonder if hr was given an alibi

I Wiki'd the case
Murder of Joana Cipriano - Wikipedia

Interesting: Amaral ..... was accused of having covered up for other officers; he was convicted of having falsified police documents in the case and received an eighteen-month suspended sentence.

There was a pittance ably thus case and his conduct was shocking. Indefensible.

So, the guy was in the same town. On the SAME day that McCann disappeared. He picked up a child from the SAME daycare.

He is a *******, that is obvious. And someone said he "said" something disturbing.

I am not actually seeing any smoking gun evidence here. Am I wrong?

Who is the 'he' here?

Charles Lindbergh was taken out through a window and that was on the second floor. Imo

There was more than one perp (allegedly)

I was once burgled on holiday by someone scaling a tall wall like spiderman.

Do you remember the height of the window to the ground? It's been so long I forgot all the details.

High enough thi make it implausible without an accomplice imho

Short version, if we find out German guy came in and out the unlocked patio door and abducted Maddie that way, at the later time, Tapas have some 'splaining to do.

Why?

 

[mrjitty]

Why?

Because their whole timeline and original version doesn't fit with it.

 

[Lusitana]

Gerry now says he left the patio door unlocked and that the street (front) door was locked

So there never was any need to break in, a burglar could just walk in the unlocked patio door on the resort side.

Whether we can believe that door was actually unlocked I don't know, but it would explain why there was no evidence of forced entry

If it's actually true that the group was checking each other's kids, I believe it's very much possible that none of their doors were locked, just it would be easy to get in and out without waking them up. But, if I'm being honest, I'm not sure if they said they were taking turns checking each others kids, or if they were checking their own kids.
Not much work would have to be put into getting through the patio door though, at least from what it looks like from Google Maps, jumping/climbing would be doable to most mildly fit, healthy people.

 

[Satchie]

Well this is where we get into stuff that is impossible to know unless the Tapas group finally resolves all the contradictions in its evidence.

But we do know it was not the point of ingress because the shutters would have to be broken and there was simply no evidence of it. Instead the patio door was unlocked which neatly explains the lack of evidence of forced entry.

And why leave via the window when you can just walk out either door?

Finally if the shutters were up, and windows open, everyone approaching via the front door had to see this

IMO this is why Gerry finally admitted he never came in the front door

IDK. IMO most police forces these days understand the human mind is extremely unreliable and don't place so much emphasis on witnesses, they rely on forensics, all the way.

 

[Owlpellet]

High enough thi make it implausible without an accomplice imho

In the pictures available on the web the window's not that high ...maybe 3ft?

 

[Satchie]

Gerry now says he left the patio door unlocked and that the street (front) door was locked

So there never was any need to break in, a burglar could just walk in the unlocked patio door on the resort side.

Whether we can believe that door was actually unlocked I don't know, but it would explain why there was no evidence of forced entry

I don't want to keep thrashing at this, but I'm working on a couple of basic assumptions:

1. There is no reason for a mother to stage an open window after her child has been abducted.

2. If there is an open window, that is a fact that has to be explained. Especially because it is literally the only clue in the crime scene. A detective doesn't just dismiss it, and say, well the abductor could have used a door. If the abductor used a door, then the window wouldn't be open!

ETA if I had to swear whether or not I'd locked a door a few hours earlier, I'd be in big trouble.

 

[Lusitana]

In the pictures available on the web the window's not that high ...maybe 3ft?

It's not a high window, going in and out of the apartment through the window would be easy if it was open. The thing is, for anyone to be able to go into the apartment through the window, the blinds would have to be open, you can force them up from the outside but it would be pretty loud, and then, the actual window would have to be open too. Exiting the apartment through the window doesn't fit with the scene, the blinds weren't completely shut, but there's no way an adult was able to go through the window holding a child and somehow forcing the blinds up at the same time.

 

[katydid23]

I don't want to keep thrashing at this, but I'm working on a couple of basic assumptions:

1. There is no reason for a mother to stage an open window after her child has been abducted.

2. If there is an open window, that is a fact that has to been explained. Especially because it is literally the only clue in the crime scene. A detective doesn't just dismiss it, and say, well the abductor could have used a door. If the abductor used a door, then the window wouldn't be open!

There is a reason, although a stupid and unethical one, that a mother might stage an open window, imo.

If she was worried about losing her other children to Children's Services, for neglect, because she left them alone at night, with an unlocked patio door, she might try to cover that up.

 

[Satchie]

There is a reason, although a stupid and unethical one, that a mother might stage an open window, imo.

If she was worried about losing her other children to Children's Services, for neglect, because she left them alone at night, with an unlocked patio door, she might try to cover that up.

You think that is a mother's first thought, the moment she realizes her 3 year old child is missing from her bed? IMO the first thought is desperation to know where her child is, terror about what happened to her child.

 

[Satchie]

It's not a high window, going in and out of the apartment through the window would be easy if it was open. The thing is, for anyone to be able to go into the apartment through the window, the blinds would have to be open, you can force them up from the outside but it would be pretty loud, and then, the actual window would have to be open too. Exiting the apartment through the window doesn't fit with the scene, the blinds weren't completely shut, but there's no way an adult was able to go through the window holding a child and somehow forcing the blinds up at the same time.

Okay, but the window was open. Why was it open?

 

[katydid23]

You think that is a mother's first thought, the moment she realizes her 3 year old child is missing from her bed? IMO the first thought is desperation to know where her child is, terror about what happened to her child.

It shouldn't be her first thought. But I can't think of any other reason it was left open like that. I highly doubt the perp did that.

And we do know the parents eventually admitted the patio was unlocked. If so, then it seems likely that's how the suspect entered.

And it doesn't negate that her first thoughts were desperation and terror for her missing child. But her next thoughts were in desperation for her 2 remaining children, imo.

 

[Wowno17]

I Wiki'd the case
Murder of Joana Cipriano -

I find this case very interesting....for so many reasons!

Wikipedia

Interesting: Amaral ..... was accused of having covered up for other officers; he was convicted of having falsified police documents in the case and received an eighteen-month suspended sentence.

Interesting I remember this at the time of Maddie's disappearance, also remember the mothers face after she apparently threw herself down the stairs to commit suicide. Didn't know stairs could cause 2 distinct black eyes.

MOO

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_02/Cipriano2MOS1509_468x648.jpg

 

[Lusitana]

Okay, but the window was open. Why was it open?

I just saw the pictures and it looks like the window was closed. There's a lot from this case that I don't remember anymore, did Kate claim that the window was open and she closed it, or was it open when LE got there and it was closed eventually? Because, from the pictures, and I could be seeing it wrong, it looks like the window is closed. The evidence shows that the window wasn't open from the outside, so...
During the Summer I sleep with my window open and the blinds closed up to the middle of the window. Portuguese homes can get reallyyyyyyy hot during Summer. I spent a few nights in a hostel in Algarve and while the room had AC, I couldn't bring myself to leave it on the whole night so I just caved in and slept with the window open. The blinds were not like the ones on the Ocean Club apartments though, it was those blinds that are connected to the window itself so, there was no way to just leave the blind closed. I was not on the street level though so, the chances of anyone getting into the room would be veryyyyyyyy slim, unless it was Spiderman or something lol. Bottom line is, Summer nights (and days!) in Algarve and terribly hot. Early May wasn't probably as hot, but it would still be pretty hot so, a window open with the blinds shut wouldn't shock me. But yes, the fact that it was a kid's room and the window was not high up does make it unsafe. But, to be honest, the whole situation was crazy unsafe.