Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #20

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Dlk79 said:
"Knowledge of the crime only the suspect could know."

Had a thought on this. I think most of us have assumed this knowledge involves some detail that is not currently in the public domain, but that's not necessarily the case.

If we assume this "knowledge" comes from something CB confessed to HB, that would have been in 2008. It was supposedly at a festival which I believe was in the July of that year. The PJ files which we are so familiar with now hadn't been made public at that point, most were realeased in August 2008 I believe. So if CB mentioned something that wasn't common knowledge at that point in time, that could I suppose be reasonably described as something only the perpetrator could know. Ok, technically the police would have also known about it too, but I could understand why HCW might make that assertion given the likelihood CB could have obtained such information from them.

Taking the example of CB possibly describing something that happened during GM or MO's checks, much of the details behind those checks had not been reported in the Press. Things like GM using the toilet or MO stopping to look at the books on the shelf that are mentioned in their statements were probably not common knowledge back then.

Not that it makes a lot of difference. Just pointing out that this "knowledge of the crime" might be something we do now know about, but that wasn't known back when CB recounted it.
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Could be something as simple as a birthmark she had in a certain place maybe, or something to do with her body, that only parents know about?
 
Lilly b said:
Could be something as simple as a birthmark she had in a certain place maybe, or something to do with her body, that only parents know about?
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It's possible but technically, that is not knowledge of the crime (in theory he could have seen a birthmark in a video he obtained). I also find it difficult to imagine a conversation where CB would talk about a birthmark. JMO.
 
Dlk79 said:
The dog alerts have always been a somewhat confusing aspect of the evidence. It is possible they were simply wrong. I didn't think my theory of a death in the apartment would explain the dog alerts either since it was my understanding that corpse odour doesn't kick in for about 2 hours. However, I have just come across this article where it indicates that the scent could start from as little as 15 minutes. On that basis, the theory of CB killing MM in 5A might be compatible with the dog alerts.

"Physiologic changes begin immediately, and within the first two hours after death onset of lividity, chemical changes in the blood, relaxation of muscle tissue, and other changes have been documented. In fact, in some cases, lividity can be seen as soon as 15 minutes post-mortem."
cadaver_odour [Just five hours in May].

It says in this test scenario, the earliest they were able to get a dog to detect a cadaver scent was 1 hour 25 minutes after death. However, the shortest length test sample they used was 70 minutes after death. Given they did not trial anything under this, and the test scenario only used 5 dogs, it's possible I suppose that a good dog might be able to alert to an even shorter post-mortem interval.

Not totally convinced by this, but it does allow for the possibility. The other thing to note, is that the cadaver dog was also trained to alert to blood. So it is no indicator necessarily that the dog was picking up the scent of death. People bleed all the time, so it could just be that he and the blood dog were just picking up something completely unrelated to MM.
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Good points. And I wonder if in small child it would be quicker?
 
Dlk79 said:
The dog alerts have always been a somewhat confusing aspect of the evidence. It is possible they were simply wrong. I didn't think my theory of a death in the apartment would explain the dog alerts either since it was my understanding that corpse odour doesn't kick in for about 2 hours. However, I have just come across this article where it indicates that the scent could start from as little as 15 minutes. On that basis, the theory of CB killing MM in 5A might be compatible with the dog alerts.

"Physiologic changes begin immediately, and within the first two hours after death onset of lividity, chemical changes in the blood, relaxation of muscle tissue, and other changes have been documented. In fact, in some cases, lividity can be seen as soon as 15 minutes post-mortem."
cadaver_odour [Just five hours in May].

It says in this test scenario, the earliest they were able to get a dog to detect a cadaver scent was 1 hour 25 minutes after death. However, the shortest length test sample they used was 70 minutes after death. Given they did not trial anything under this, and the test scenario only used 5 dogs, it's possible I suppose that a good dog might be able to alert to an even shorter post-mortem interval.

Not totally convinced by this, but it does allow for the possibility. The other thing to note, is that the cadaver dog was also trained to alert to blood. So it is no indicator necessarily that the dog was picking up the scent of death. People bleed all the time, so it could just be that he and the blood dog were just picking up something completely unrelated to MM.
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I thought there were 2 dogs

One blood, one cadaver
 
mrjitty said:
I thought there were 2 dogs

One blood, one cadaver
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If you are talking about the ones used in 5A, yes there were 2, Eddie and Keela. If you are referencing where I've talked about 5 dogs, that's in relation to the seperate article I linked. It's about a test they carried out with cadaver dogs to work out how soon after death they could pick up a scent.

If you are meaning that the dogs had distinct seperate skills, that isn't the case. Eddie, the "cadaver" dog was also trained to alert to blood and body fluids. So his alerts to a possible cadaver only become relevant when those alerts are not picked up by the blood dog, Keela.
 
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If an intruder goes inside a property and somehow causes a resident to pass away and if the intruder decides to remove the evidence maybe he does that immediately, or he maybe goes away for a some minutes then comes back and removes? Is that possible?
 
redplanet said:
If an intruder goes inside a property and somehow causes a resident to pass away and if the intruder decides to remove the evidence maybe he does that immediately, or he maybe goes away for a some minutes then comes back and removes? Is that possible?
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I've wondered the same. While people were out searching for MM, or in the panic immediately upon discovery of a missing child, could someone have gone in and removed a hidden body, or even been inside at the time. As mentioned on these pages recently - things that sound far-fetched may be possible.
 
redplanet said:
If an intruder goes inside a property and somehow causes a resident to pass away and if the intruder decides to remove the evidence maybe he does that immediately, or he maybe goes away for a some minutes then comes back and removes? Is that possible?
Click to expand...
That would be quite risky but not impossible. Whoever the perp was, he must have come back within minutes. But that wouldn't change much only add more risk to being discovered sneaking in a second time.
 
For very short post mortem intervals such as 5 minutes or maybe 10 minutes there is IMO simply no research available on detectability by dog. It is IMO outside the capability of existing studies because they have no logistic ability to acquire subjects so swiftly.
 
About the ping at the OC: triangulation brings up the location of a mobile phone. The reporter of the podcast asked for the range of the mast, and he also asked whether it could have been possible for CB to have made a phone call from his house. HCW answered he didn't know the range of the mast.
The range of one single mast is not that very relevant. I assume that LE has found the location through triangulation and perhaps, besides that, CB was logged on into the wifi of the OC. Note that the latter is speculation on my side, because wifi has never been mentioned.
vhoxS0t.jpg

source: 60 minutes Australia
 
Quietey said:
I've wondered the same. While people were out searching for MM, or in the panic immediately upon discovery of a missing child, could someone have gone in and removed a hidden body, or even been inside at the time. As mentioned on these pages recently - things that sound far-fetched may be possible.
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That is indeed thinking outside the box Quietey (sorry I wrote wrong name before by mistake), and it's a good skill to have. I was thinking much more mundanely maybe the intruder leaves then returns straight away within maybe 5 minutes to remove the evidence, this all being completed prior to the victim being discovered missing.
 
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redplanet said:
If an intruder goes inside a property and somehow causes a resident to pass away and if the intruder decides to remove the evidence maybe he does that immediately, or he maybe goes away for a some minutes then comes back and removes? Is that possible?
Click to expand...
At this stage of what we know, that remains a plausible option.

Just delving further into the dog alerts, the ones that might be signifcant are where Eddie (who detects cadaver and blood) alerted but Keela (only detects blood) did not.

Reading the reports, those instances occured at the wardrobe in the parents room and in the garden outside 5A. Just postulating, but in line with the theory of MM dying in 5A, there is a plausible scenario to explain that.
P.J. POLICE FILES: EDDIE & KEELA REPORT

Going back to the theory of the missing tennis bag (linked underneath), what "might" (and I use in the loosest term possible) have happened involved MM's body being taken into the parents' room to transfer her into the bag. From there, the bag might have been left in the garden while CB checked the coast was clear to take off with her.
The McCanns' Abuse of Power: What happened to Gerry McCann's blue tennis bag?
A very tentative suggestion, that might make sense of the dog alerts. As I said before though, they may be totally innacurate too.
 
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Chiatos said:
About the ping at the OC: triangulation brings up the location of a mobile phone. The reporter of the podcast asked for the range of the mast, and he also asked whether it could have been possible for CB to have made a phone call from his house. HCW answered he didn't know the range of the mast.
The range of one single mast is not that very relevant. I assume that LE has found the location through triangulation and perhaps, besides that, CB was logged on into the wifi of the OC. Note that the latter is speculation on my side, because wifi has never been mentioned.
vhoxS0t.jpg

source: 60 minutes Australia
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According to the podcast, HCW referred to evidence, that places the suspect IN the ocean club and he doesn't know, what range the mast had or has!

So they do not really seem to need the mobile data to place him near OC. Even if it was two hours before the vanishing. They seem to need the second caller for other reasons IMO.

And i think they do not expect the other caller to come forward, but a witness who can link the number to somebody.

I still think more and more, that their verdict bases on multiple paedochat confessions including exclusive perp knowledge. So they know, that they will likely do not find forensics like the body or the repeatedly mentioned parts of it.

And maybe they ask for a video or other footage he in person had shared online and the witness to that. But that will only happen, if someone else will incriminate himself.

But thinking about the actual strikes against child *advertiser censored*, maybe someone comes out, before L.E. catches them, even if his cooperation could lead to a lower sentence.
 
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Lilly b said:
Could be something as simple as a birthmark she had in a certain place maybe, or something to do with her body, that only parents know about?
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I'm sure HCW at one point said they knew how she died. I can't find it now but if they do I think you could make a very strong case that that would be the thing that only the killer would know. IMO that that could be what convinced them that whoever had confessed to it had to have been there. Only they would know that

I'm struggling to think of anything else only the killer would know. Anything else could be picked up somehow
 
Chiatos said:
That would be quite risky but not impossible. Whoever the perp was, he must have come back within minutes. But that wouldn't change much only add more risk to being discovered sneaking in a second time.
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Example what if he has a vehicle parked several blocks away but in the apartment something goes wrong and he leaves the apartment for a few minutes to move the vehicle closer???
 
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