Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #20

[redplanet]

The police don't control the Press. Sky News might have picked up on the information and reported it without knowing it was meant to be kept secret.

But which bag? Is there a photo? (before its disappearance obviously). BTW one of the papers drew a bag being carried that was far too small.

 

[MENDEL]

But which bag? Is there a photo? (before its disappearance obviously). BTW one of the papers drew a bag being carried that was far too small.

This is the source pic of the so-called blue bag. From PJ files, vol. Xa.

 

[Newthoughts]

Yes. But to test detectability by dog of a body at only 10 minutes PM, requires acquiring a body at only 10 minutes PM and obtaining scent pad samples at that moment. The absence of proof of detectability at 10 minutes is IMO because of this logistic difficulty.

The cadaver dog was trained with decomposing pigs (human remains are unacceptable for this purpose in UK). According to operator, cadaver dogs from US trained with human corpses couldn't make a distinction between human and porcine decomposing scent. Operator also claimed his dog was challenged with artificial cadaver scent and it showed no interest.

The last time we know MM was alive was when her parents left at 8.30. The maximum time therefore, that a scent could be building up is 90 minutes. Assuming the killer struck straight away

GM however sees MM sleeping at sometime around 9ish. In her own bed. This doesn't prove she is alive but the cadaver dog does not react in the children's bedroom and especially not at her bed.

So what are the possibilities? MM was alive at 9 and the cadaver dog picked up a scent incredibly early? She wasn't alive at 9 but that the scent had not yet built up to a detectable level and she was moved afterwards for some reason? Some other reason eg her parents jobs as doctors bringing them into contact with the deceased.

They also reacted to the McCanns hotel car.

 

[redplanet]

Two problems with the hypothetical bag at the start of that sky news video posted above. First it is too small IMO. Also (estimated from gait/speed/balance) its total weight is insufficient IMO.

 

[tedtink]

Two problems with the hypothetical bag at the start of that sky news video posted above. First it is too small IMO. Also (estimated from gait/speed/balance) its total weight is insufficient IMO.

I don't think the clip is meant to be a reconstruction or indication of what the bag would have looked like, so could serve to mislead.
The bag in the clip is black and a random clip.

 

[redplanet]

This is the source pic of the so-called blue bag. From PJ files, vol. Xa.

TY. This photo is taken in the hours after 01:00. Therefore this bag was not taken by an intruder during the 20:25-22:00 meal.

 

[tedtink]

TY. This photo is taken in the hours after 01:00. Therefore this bag was not taken by an intruder during the 20:25-22:00 meal.

GM says in his statement, when shown the pic, that it is a suitcase.
Link is upthread.

 

[tedtink]

This is the source pic of the so-called blue bag. From PJ files, vol. Xa.

I think this is where things have got muddled.
The item above is a suitcase.
According to DP, GM had a blue sports bag.
Sky News reported early on in the case about a missing blue sports/bag.
Then it all went quiet, MC's denied there ever was one.
When the PJ files were released I would imagine Sleuths online thought they had found the 'missing' bag.
So, the item in the pic isn't the missing bag but a suitcase (just like GM said), which still leaves the whereabouts/existence of the sports bag unknown.

JMO

 

[redplanet]

The last time we know MM was alive was when her parents left at 8.30. The maximum time therefore, that a scent could be building up is 90 minutes. Assuming the killer struck straight away

GM however sees MM sleeping at sometime around 9ish. In her own bed. This doesn't prove she is alive but the cadaver dog does not react in the children's bedroom and especially not at her bed.

So what are the possibilities? MM was alive at 9 and the cadaver dog picked up a scent incredibly early? She wasn't alive at 9 but that the scent had not yet built up to a detectable level and she was moved afterwards for some reason? Some other reason eg her parents jobs as doctors bringing them into contact with the deceased.

They also reacted to the McCanns hotel car.

IMO probably: is alive at 9 and the dog picks up scent incredibly early.
Admittedly this means that at time of removal by the intruder the PM time must be less than about 40 minutes, probably far less, which some might say is far too brief to allow later detection by dog.

 

[redplanet]

I don't think the clip is meant to be a reconstruction or indication of what the bag would have looked like, so could serve to mislead.
The bag in the clip is black and a random clip.

I think it is probably not a stock clip IMO but one they filmed specially although with little thought about size weight and balance.

 

[MENDEL]

This is the source pic of the so-called blue bag. From PJ files, vol. Xa.

To me, that looks more like a rucksack. If we assume doors are about 2m high, then the shelf is about 1m wide. That bag occupies some 70% at most (it clearly finishes a little inside where open door covers it). So it can't hardly be larger than 70cm.

 

[C.greek]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-suspect-never-quizzed-22900129.amp

 

[Victoria Chambers]

Of course cadaver dogs are trained with deceased animals. Mainly pigs. And almost certainly transported immediately after death. A bit like when a person dies and their next of kin is immediately asked about organ donating. There are probably programmes in place that farmers and vets etc can be part of in relation.- You would never advertise your dog as a specialist in that field without effective training been given. Also, in human beings, decomposition does begin instantaneously at death. The lips are blue in under 60 seconds. Lividity starts to take effect immediately when the blood stops circulating. Gravity instantly begins the process of drawing the blood to the lowest part of the body at ground point, this adds up to 'dead-weight'. I'm not sure what the correct term is, but it has to do with the breaking down of things internally results in gas being emitted. Sounds vile! And of course, the elements will increase or decrease the speed of he decomposition. A well trained dog could pick up on death even in the earliest stages. Of course, people, and certainly numbers of people, who spend time in and out of a 'death room will no doubt add to contamination of the area, which may confuse or hamper the dogs ability. Especially if the body was removed immediately X

 

[snowpea666]

I am starting to think that much can be read from the subtext of Mr Wolters’ words. I.e. he would confirm certain questions and questions that may hold some truth, he says he cannot comment on. In one of his interviews he said that they don’t have any physical evidence such as Madeleine’s pajamas. I have also wondered why he would bring that up. This makes me think they may have some sort of photographic evidence where her pajamas feature. Therefore his insistence that it is Madeleine. Only my opinion.

Yes, and I hate even typing this, also the Ref to no body or body parts !!!

 

[redplanet]

This is the source pic of the so-called blue bag. From PJ files, vol. Xa.

And the bottom right photo here shows the same wardrobe
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2311.jpg

 

[snowpea666]

I think we are on an interesting subject with this

Madeleine McCann prosecutors in Germany 'know how she was killed'

 

[C.greek]

Of course cadaver dogs are trained with deceased animals. Mainly pigs. And almost certainly transported immediately after death. A bit like when a person dies and their next of kin is immediately asked about organ donating. There are probably programmes in place that farmers and vets etc can be part of in relation.- You would never advertise your dog as a specialist in that field without effective training been given. Also, in human beings, decomposition does begin instantaneously at death. The lips are blue in under 60 seconds. Lividity starts to take effect immediately when the blood stops circulating. Gravity instantly begins the process of drawing the blood to the lowest part of the body at ground point, this adds up to 'dead-weight'. I'm not sure what the correct term is, but it has to do with the breaking down of things internally results in gas being emitted. Sounds vile! And of course, the elements will increase or decrease the speed of he decomposition. A well trained dog could pick up on death even in the earliest stages. Of course, people, and certainly numbers of people, who spend time in and out of a 'death room will no doubt add to contamination of the area, which may confuse or hamper the dogs ability. Especially if the body was removed immediately X

Would this scent remain on washed clothes?

 

[Okapi]

The fact that the cadaver dog alerted to MBM's teddy, Cuddle Cat, suggests to me the possibility that the child died in the bed alongside it. I can't think of a likelier scenario for how the toy was contaminated.

"The dog handler said Eddie didn't alert in any other situation except when he scented that which he was seeking: the scent of a human cadaver...Eddie also alerted to Cuddle Cat."

Most jaw-dropping moments from Disappearance of Madeleine McCann Netflix series

A police source told the Sunday Mirror: "When Kate tucked Madeleine up in bed earlier in the evening she had the toy tightly in her arms as she did every night.

"So Kate was terrified when she spotted it had been left in a place too high for her to reach."

What was Madeleine McCann's Cuddle Cat and how long did Kate carry it for?

 

[Okapi]

Would this scent remain on washed clothes?

"The human decomposition is very persistent, very pungent to the point where we’ve been able to locate, in blind searches, graves 40 years after the body has been removed and the body was only there for a short period of time."


How sniffer dogs signalled ‘scent of blood and corpse’ in Madeleine McCann apartment – The Cadaver Dog Network

 

[Dlk79]

The fact that the cadaver dog alerted to MBM's teddy, Cuddle Cat, suggests to me the possibility that the child died in the bed alongside it. I can't think of a likelier scenario for how the toy was contaminated.

"The dog handler said Eddie didn't alert in any other situation except when he scented that which he was seeking: the scent of a human cadaver...Eddie also alerted to Cuddle Cat."

Most jaw-dropping moments from Disappearance of Madeleine McCann Netflix series

A police source told the Sunday Mirror: "When Kate tucked Madeleine up in bed earlier in the evening she had the toy tightly in her arms as she did every night.

"So Kate was terrified when she spotted it had been left in a place too high for her to reach."

What was Madeleine McCann's Cuddle Cat and how long did Kate carry it for?

The problem with that scenario is that the cadaver dog did not alert to MM's bed. If the alerts are accurate, I think it is more likely the scent on cuddle cat was from cross contamination.

The dogs also alerted to several other things after the event, mostly Kate's clothes. Given Kate was holding the teddy constantly in the days afterwards, it is plausible that the scent transferred to it from her clothes, which in turn might have been contaminated from something she cames into contact with. Once one piece of clothing has been contaminated with the scent, once put in a wardrobe etc, the rest follows. It could be that CB moved MM to somewhere in the apartment before the body started to give off a cadaver odour and that location is where Kate (or her clothes) came into contact with it.

ETA in line with @redplanet post, it should be noted that there is some debate over the accuracy of the alert to cuddle cat. Initially the dog dismisses it, even picking it up with his teeth and tossing it. Later, the handler places it in a cupboard and this time the dog does alert. However, the dog had also alerted to the cupboard itself previously. So yes, not entirely conclusive.