Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #21

[SuperdadV8]

Do you use shot glasses for wine in Germany?

I would like to introduce my shot-glass to you, dear ted!

 

[tedtink]

I would like to introduce my shot-glass to you, dear ted!

View attachment 273231

Is that one of those rare Singapura miniature cats Super?
It's very sweet

 

[SuperdadV8]

Is that one of those rare Singapura miniature cats Super?
It's very sweet

It's a 7 months old turkish angora male cat called Phoenix, because i had to ressurect him at birth. His siamese cat mother had a very bad first birth (not unusal), but i would never take him away from her. By now, he must have about 6-7 kilos. The glass is about 5 litres!

 

[C.greek]

It depends on the size of the bottle and the size of the glasses!

Found a good guide:

• For wine tastings – average serving size is roughly 60ml., i.e around 12 wine tasting-size glasses.
• For dinner parties – one serving = 125ml = 6 glasses of wine per bottle
• For private drinking – it’s normal to serve up to 175ml = just over 4 glasses.
• For drinking at a bar or restaurant – usually offer 125ml, 175ml and 250ml size servings.

There you go!

 

[SuperdadV8]

Found a good guide:

• For wine tastings – average serving size is roughly 60ml., i.e around 12 wine tasting-size glasses.
• For dinner parties – one serving = 125ml = 6 glasses of wine per bottle
• For private drinking – it’s normal to serve up to 175ml = just over 4 glasses.
• For drinking at a bar or restaurant – usually offer 125ml, 175ml and 250ml size servings.

There you go!

So you would like to approve, that consuming alcohol could have altered the impression?

 

[Dlk79]

KM checked and confirmed she had not left the patio door open. Source: book p71 (ETA Here snipped by me, please see book for full text)

".... (I) gently began to pull it to .... suddenly it slammed shut .... I turned to see if I'd left the patio doors open .... retracing my steps I confirmed that I hadn't"

Hmm, interesting. I haven't read her book but this account sounds quite odd. First of all, why did she try to pull the door closed? She was going to check on the kids, so wouldn't you look into the room first to do that before pulling the door back (i.e. the same as GM did)? Even more so if you felt it strange that the door was open when it shouldn't have been. If I recall correctly, her noticing MM was gone was after the door slamming, and therefore before her trying to pull it closed.

Can you clarify, did the bit about her checking whether the patio door had been left open (and tracing her steps) also happen before she then checked in MM's room?

 

[tedtink]

Hmm, interesting. I haven't read her book but this account sounds quite odd. First of all, why did she try to pull the door closed? She was going to check on the kids, so wouldn't you look into the room first to do that before pulling the door back (i.e. the same as GM did)? Even more so if you felt it strange that the door was open when it shouldn't have been. If I recall correctly, her noticing MM was gone was after the door slamming, and therefore before her trying to pull it closed.

Can you clarify, did the bit about her checking whether the patio door had been left open (and tracing her steps) also happen before she then checked in MM's room?

Yes, that's correct and formed part of the 'sloppy' point I was tying to make earlier regarding the possibility of the door 'moving' when the checks were done without another door or window being open at the time

 

[tedtink]

PG 71 'Madeleine'
"At 10pm I went back to the apartment myself. I entered the sitting room via the patio doors, as Gerry and Matt had done, and stood there, listening, for a few seconds.
All was silent. Then I noticed that the door to the children's bedroom was open quite wide, not how we had left it. At first I assumed that Matt must have moved it. I walked over and gently began to pull it. Suddenly it slammed shut, as if caught by a draught.
A little surprised I turned to see if I'd left the patio doors open and let in the breeze. Retracing my steps. I confirmed that I hadn't. Returning to the children's room I opened the door a little, and as I did so I glanced over at Madeleine's bed"...............

 

[tedtink]

PG 71 'Madeleine'
"At 10pm I went back to the apartment myself. I entered the sitting room via the patio doors, as Gerry and Matt had done, and stood there, listening, for a few seconds.
All was silent. Then I noticed that the door to the children's bedroom was open quite wide, not how we had left it. At first I assumed that Matt must have moved it. I walked over and gently began to pull it. Suddenly it slammed shut, as if caught by a draught.
A little surprised I turned to see if I'd left the patio doors open and let in the breeze. Retracing my steps. I confirmed that I hadn't. Returning to the children's room I opened the door a little, and as I did so I glanced over at Madeleine's bed"...............

cont.........p 71-72

"I couldn't quite make her out in the dark. I remember looking at it and looking at it for what was probably only a few seconds, though it felt like much longer. It seems so daft now, but I didn't switch on the light straight away.
Force of habit, I suppose, taking care not to wake the children at all costs.
When I realised Madeleine wasn't there I went through to our room to see if she'd got into our bed. That would explain the open door. On the discovery of another empty bed, the first wave of panic hit me. As I ran back into the children's bedroom the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind . My heart lurched as I saw now, that, behind them. the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up"...........

 

[Zuleika]

Thing is no one according to their statements noticed an open window when the group went back to the apt. with KM . Why not ? Who closed it ?Did she say she closed it herself before she went running off to the restaurant?Was it ever open ?

 

[Dlk79]

PG 71 'Madeleine'
"At 10pm I went back to the apartment myself. I entered the sitting room via the patio doors, as Gerry and Matt had done, and stood there, listening, for a few seconds.
All was silent. Then I noticed that the door to the children's bedroom was open quite wide, not how we had left it. At first I assumed that Matt must have moved it. I walked over and gently began to pull it. Suddenly it slammed shut, as if caught by a draught.
A little surprised I turned to see if I'd left the patio doors open and let in the breeze. Retracing my steps. I confirmed that I hadn't. Returning to the children's room I opened the door a little, and as I did so I glanced over at Madeleine's bed"...............

Am I the only one who finds that odd? So, rather than walk to the room, she just stands there for a few seconds (where exactly? Hovering at the patio door while it's open, or just stood motionless in the sitting room after entering, having now closed the patio door). After a few seconds of standing and listening, she now notices the bedroom door is open (why didn't she see it straight away? Why pause to listen?) . So, she goes over and tries to close the door, without even looking into the room at the kids. The door slams. Her next thought isn't to check in the room, but to retrace her steps back to the patio door to see if she left it open. I just find this a very strange sequence.

 

[tedtink]

Am I the only one who finds that odd? So, rather than walk to the room, she just stands there for a few seconds (where exactly? Hovering at the patio door while it's open, or just stood motionless in the sitting room after entering, having now closing the patio door). After a few seconds of standing and listening, she now notices the bedroom door is open (why didn't she see it straight away? Why pause to listen?) . So, she goes over and tries to close the door, without even looking into the room at the kids. The door slams. Her next thought isn't to check in the room, but to retrace her steps back to the patio door to see if she left it open. I just find this a very strange sequence.

Yes I agree it's a very strange sequence indeed and quite different to the first statements. There was also a video in 2008 of KM explaining the 'whoosh' in the apartment, although i have the transcript of the video which is different to what KM says in the book - the video can no longer be found online.
Not that I think they are lying, but I do think they really convinced themselves that someone had been in 5a during GM's check. Then, as time went on, they started to 'unconsciously' weave a narrative around the 'door angles'.

 

[Dlk79]

Thing is no one according to their statements noticed an open window when the group went back to the apt. with KM . Why not ? Who closed it ?Did she say she closed it herself before she went running off to the restaurant?

Aside from her book, written on her own terms at a much later date, there's very little detail in the files about what KM did during her 10pm check.

This is all the detail in her first statement on the 4th May:

At around 10pm, the interviewee went to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before. She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.

Faced with this situation,she verified that the twins were in their respective beds, unlike Madeleine, who had disappeared. The cover was pulled back and the toys were on the pillow as usual. After searching the whole apartment thoroughly, the interviewee went back, scared and shocked, to the restaurant, to alert her husband and the others to the disappearance.

For some reason, there is no statement in the files from her from the 10th/11th of May yet GM and nearly all of the other members of the Tapas group did a second statement at this time. Does anyone know why there is not a second statement from KM?

Then, there is her statement from September after her and GM were made Arguido. She answers all the questions about what happened up to the point of her 10pm check but then refuses to answer anythinge else. The first of the 48 questions she refused to answer was:
Asked, on May 03, 2007, at 22:00, when she entered the apartment what she saw and did, where she looked, and what she touched [handled], she did not respond.

It is worth noting that prior to this, she did make this comment in her Arguido interview:

The window in Madeleine's room remained closed, but she doesn't know if it was locked, blinds and curtains drawn. The window remained like this since the first day, night and day. She never opened it. If somebody saw the window blinds in Madeleine's room open, it was not Kate who opened them, she never saw them open.

Yet we know from the forensic work on the apartment, KM's palm print was found on the inside window pane as if she had moved the window at some point. If it's true she never opened it, then I suppose it's possible she pulled it closed, possibly before going to alert the others and so as to not leave the twins exposed with the window open.

 

[Dlk79]

cont.........p 71-72

"I couldn't quite make her out in the dark. I remember looking at it and looking at it for what was probably only a few seconds, though it felt like much longer. It seems so daft now, but I didn't switch on the light straight away.
Force of habit, I suppose, taking care not to wake the children at all costs.
When I realised Madeleine wasn't there I went through to our room to see if she'd got into our bed. That would explain the open door. On the discovery of another empty bed, the first wave of panic hit me. As I ran back into the children's bedroom the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind . My heart lurched as I saw now, that, behind them. the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up"...........

Again, contradicts her first statement. Here she says the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind, yet originally she says when she entered MM's room the curtains had been pulled open.

I don't understand how, especially after the door slamming and her thorough investigation that it wasn't an open patio door to blame, that she fails to take immediate note of the window/shutters/curtains when she looked in and saw MM was gone. She says she checks her bedroom for her first and then comes back to MM's room and then notices it.

 

[tedtink]

Aside from her book, written on her own terms at a much later date, there's very little detail in the files about what KM did during her 10pm check.

This is all the detail in her first statement on the 4th May:

At around 10pm, the interviewee went to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before. She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.

Faced with this situation,she verified that the twins were in their respective beds, unlike Madeleine, who had disappeared. The cover was pulled back and the toys were on the pillow as usual. After searching the whole apartment thoroughly, the interviewee went back, scared and shocked, to the restaurant, to alert her husband and the others to the disappearance.

For some reason, there is no statement in the files from her from the 10th/11th of May yet GM and nearly all of the other members of the Tapas group did a second statement at this time. Does anyone know why there is not a second statement from KM?

Then, there is her statement from September after her and GM were made Arguido. She answers all the questions about what happened up to the point of her 10pm check but then refuses to answer anythinge else. The first of the 48 questions she refused to answer was:
Asked, on May 03, 2007, at 22:00, when she entered the apartment what she saw and did, where she looked, and what she touched [handled], she did not respond.

It is worth noting that prior to this, she did make this comment in her Arguido interview:

The window in Madeleine's room remained closed, but she doesn't know if it was locked, blinds and curtains drawn. The window remained like this since the first day, night and day. She never opened it. If somebody saw the window blinds in Madeleine's room open, it was not Kate who opened them, she never saw them open.

Yet we know from the forensic work on the apartment, KM's palm print was found on the inside window pane as if she had moved the window at some point. If it's true she never opened it, then I suppose it's possible she pulled it closed, possibly before going to alert the others and so as to not leave the twins exposed with the window open.

She did leave the window open when she went back to the Tapas Restaurant but said before going back ............." I dashed over to the second bed, on the other side of the travel cots,where the twins slept on oblivious, and looked through the
window"............
This is when she could have left prints on the window, do we know which pane?

It was GM who closed the window from inside the bedroom I believe.

"In the childrens room Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window. Rushing outside he made the sickening discovery that it could be raised from this side too, not just the inside too, as we'd thought."....

 

[Zuleika]

There are a lot of strange things said !
I think possibly she stood there listening ,didn’t MO do the same?
From what I gathered that was the checking method ,not to actually go into the room .

 

[redplanet]

Hmm, interesting. I haven't read her book but this account sounds quite odd. First of all, why did she try to pull the door closed? She was going to check on the kids, so wouldn't you look into the room first to do that before pulling the door back (i.e. the same as GM did)? Even more so if you felt it strange that the door was open when it shouldn't have been. If I recall correctly, her noticing MM was gone was after the door slamming, and therefore before her trying to pull it closed.

Can you clarify, did the bit about her checking whether the patio door had been left open (and tracing her steps) also happen before she then checked in MM's room?

I recommend reading her own words, much better than me paraphrasing it therefore I will try to do a screenshot later. This book IMO is an excellent and indispensable source.

 

[redplanet]

dbm

 

[tedtink]

Aside from her book, written on her own terms at a much later date, there's very little detail in the files about what KM did during her 10pm check.

This is all the detail in her first statement on the 4th May:

At around 10pm, the interviewee went to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before. She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.

Faced with this situation,she verified that the twins were in their respective beds, unlike Madeleine, who had disappeared. The cover was pulled back and the toys were on the pillow as usual. After searching the whole apartment thoroughly, the interviewee went back, scared and shocked, to the restaurant, to alert her husband and the others to the disappearance.

For some reason, there is no statement in the files from her from the 10th/11th of May yet GM and nearly all of the other members of the Tapas group did a second statement at this time. Does anyone know why there is not a second statement from KM?

Then, there is her statement from September after her and GM were made Arguido. She answers all the questions about what happened up to the point of her 10pm check but then refuses to answer anythinge else. The first of the 48 questions she refused to answer was:
Asked, on May 03, 2007, at 22:00, when she entered the apartment what she saw and did, where she looked, and what she touched [handled], she did not respond.

It is worth noting that prior to this, she did make this comment in her Arguido interview:

The window in Madeleine's room remained closed, but she doesn't know if it was locked, blinds and curtains drawn. The window remained like this since the first day, night and day. She never opened it. If somebody saw the window blinds in Madeleine's room open, it was not Kate who opened them, she never saw them open.

Yet we know from the forensic work on the apartment, KM's palm print was found on the inside window pane as if she had moved the window at some point. If it's true she never opened it, then I suppose it's possible she pulled it closed, possibly before going to alert the others and so as to not leave the twins exposed with the window open.

She says in her book that she went to Portimao on May 10 with GM and a couple of her friends. She sat in the waiting room for 8 hours and was then told it was too late for interview and was told to go home and come back the next day.
Alan Pike, was concerned for KM's well being, asked for the interview to be re-scheduled in a few days, she says that the PJ couldn't have considered it all that important as she wasn't interviewed again until September 6.

GM had been interviewed for 13 hours that day........." when he finally returned to the apartment he related how Matt had been almost hysterical during his interview. Gerry had heard him shouting and crying. Apparently it had been put to Matt that he'd handed Madeleine out through the window to a third party. It was like something out of Life On Mars........."
Madeleine by KM page 123

 

[redplanet]

Aside from her book, written on her own terms at a much later date, there's very little detail in the files about what KM did during her 10pm check.

This is all the detail in her first statement on the 4th May:

At around 10pm, the interviewee went to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before. She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.

Faced with this situation,she verified that the twins were in their respective beds, unlike Madeleine, who had disappeared. The cover was pulled back and the toys were on the pillow as usual. After searching the whole apartment thoroughly, the interviewee went back, scared and shocked, to the restaurant, to alert her husband and the others to the disappearance.

For some reason, there is no statement in the files from her from the 10th/11th of May yet GM and nearly all of the other members of the Tapas group did a second statement at this time. Does anyone know why there is not a second statement from KM?

Then, there is her statement from September after her and GM were made Arguido. She answers all the questions about what happened up to the point of her 10pm check but then refuses to answer anythinge else. The first of the 48 questions she refused to answer was:
Asked, on May 03, 2007, at 22:00, when she entered the apartment what she saw and did, where she looked, and what she touched [handled], she did not respond.

It is worth noting that prior to this, she did make this comment in her Arguido interview:

The window in Madeleine's room remained closed, but she doesn't know if it was locked, blinds and curtains drawn. The window remained like this since the first day, night and day. She never opened it. If somebody saw the window blinds in Madeleine's room open, it was not Kate who opened them, she never saw them open.

Yet we know from the forensic work on the apartment, KM's palm print was found on the inside window pane as if she had moved the window at some point. If it's true she never opened it, then I suppose it's possible she pulled it closed, possibly before going to alert the others and so as to not leave the twins exposed with the window open.

I believe KM leaned out of the open window to look out. Therefore IMO it is fully consistent that her documented and photographed fingerprints were on the glass. However I cannot locate any palm-print being identified as of KM, which page of the PJ files please?