Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #21

[tedtink]

I recommend reading her own words, much better than me paraphrasing it therefore I will try to do a screenshot later. This book IMO is an excellent and indispensable source.

Yes I agree.
For me, reading the book, enables the reader to gain the 'bigger picture' especially where the Press Involvement was concerned and the reasons for involving the press at such an early stage.
It also allows one to make more sense of the dynamics between MC's, PJ, press and also understand the foundations of why certain conspiracy theories began.
Well worth a read, with an open mind, yes.

 

[redplanet]

She did leave the window open when she went back to the Tapas Restaurant but said before going back ............." I dashed over to the second bed, on the other side of the travel cots,where the twins slept on oblivious, and looked through the
window"............
This is when she could have left prints on the window, do we know which pane?

It was GM who closed the window from inside the bedroom I believe.

"In the childrens room Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window. Rushing outside he made the sickening discovery that it could be raised from this side too, not just the inside too, as we'd thought."....

Yes that is correct and you have explained it well IMO. And I'll answer your "which pane" question soon.

 

[redplanet]

She did leave the window open when she went back to the Tapas Restaurant but said before going back ............." I dashed over to the second bed, on the other side of the travel cots,where the twins slept on oblivious, and looked through the
window"............
This is when she could have left prints on the window, do we know which pane?

It was GM who closed the window from inside the bedroom I believe.

"In the childrens room Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window. Rushing outside he made the sickening discovery that it could be raised from this side too, not just the inside too, as we'd thought."....

Those 5 prints were on the room-side surface of the glass. It does not say which pane. However if you study how this sliding window works (only one pane moves) these prints would IMO be on the sliding pane, which is on the R (viewed from inside) when closed, but on the L (viewed from inside) when slid open. IMO the prints are 100% consistent with the witness's account (looking out).

 

[Loobyloo]

Taking a chance once but certainly not twice imo .
GM “ looked down” at Madeleine ? He would have noticed had her position changed more than a little from when she was put to bed.

I'm not sure he would have noticed, or attached any significance to a change in position. Children that age can be very restless sleepers, so it would be perfectly 'normal' to find them in a different position each time they were checked. Besides, do we even know which parent had put her to bed?

 

[Loobyloo]

<snip>
The timings of JT are also a little hazy. The first estimate by her husband ROB in his timeline has her leaving 9.20 - 9.25. In the second one it is 9.20. Then in her first statement she says it was 9.15, basing it on being about 5 mins after GM had left which they determined at that time was 9.10. Then in her 2008 rogotary statement she claims to have left between 9.05 and 9.10.

Yes, this is the kind of thing I meant a few days ago when I referred to the timings in witness statements being a 'best guess' rather than factually precise recollections.

 

[uburoi1]

By the time the dial moves back where it should be -- Oh, snap! The Tapas 7! -- we'll all have been identified as suspects.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I'm not sure he would have noticed, or attached any significance to a change in position. Children that age can be very restless sleepers, so it would be perfectly 'normal' to find them in a different position each time they were checked. Besides, do we even know which parent had put her to bed?

I think both KM and GM independently checked the kids before leaving for dinner.

 

[Newthoughts]

I’m sure I read somewhere that she was wearing flip flops that made a noise when she walked. Will try to find.
ETA - here you go, in here she takes about cropped trousers and flip flops
P.J. POLICE FILES: JANE TANNER ROGATORY INTERVIEW<br>WITH DC FERGUSON

There are several things in that very long statement that are interesting IMO.

Firstly she seems to be suggesting they were later home sometimes after going to the bar. Wed night particularly. Maybe Tuesday. That lends weight to PFs statement about the time she heard a child crying on the first.

The second is KM chats to her about MMs questions about why she didn't come when her and Sean were crying. She seemed to suggest it had concerned KM enough for her to wonder had they woken up

To me it seems like she's suggesting the checks were more frequent on the third because of both of the above. IMO only but I'd welcome other interpretations.

She also mentions how dark and quiet it was on her trip to check her daughter. It sounds to me like she felt s little bit unnerved - as most women would feel alone in the dark - but again it'd be interesting to see what others think.

Taking her statement alone, whatever theory you favour from burglary thru abuse in situ thru to abduction - it would sound like CB might have felt he had a good period of time to carry out his plans.

One other thing - she says MM was confident and outgoing. Would she necessarily have screamed if she saw CB? Or would she have gone with him quite happily if he was pleasant to her? Nearly 4 - too young to understand adults might lie. Happy loved child - never any reason to distrust adults or dream they were anything other than nice.

 

[tedtink]

By the time the dial moves back where it should be -- Oh, snap! The Tapas 7! -- we'll all have been identified as suspects.

Thanks for your random comment but the T9, or Tapas 7 as you put it, are not suspects, certainly not on this forum.

 

[mrjitty]

That' always been my thought, that Kate left the patio door open in her check. Internal doors don't slam shut like that unless there is a passage for the air to go from point A to point B. Which could mean that the window was open during the other checks too in theory except that they didn't leave the patio door open long enough for the door to slam. Just a possibility.

I agree with this - we have it in our own place. We can leave the windows in the bedroom open at night even in strong prevailing wind, so long as no windows are open on the opposite side of the apartment. The most you get is curtain movement. Interestingly if the front door of the apartment block is opened, then a small draft will flow on the floor. But for doors to slam, a window on the other side has to be open, otherwise the air pressure prevents anything but minor movement.

 

[mrjitty]

Normally a bottle of wine should fit about 7, maybe 8 glasses. In germany, a glass of wine is about 0.1 litres.

A standard 750ml bottle of wine is usually said to hold 5 glasses, based on a 150ml pour (champagne/sekt is normally 100ml). This is pretty typical in north Germany, UK etc IMO.

Actually pours vary of course, with many places having introduced a "large glass" which is 200ml vs small glass (100ml) or other opportunities that make them money. My local offers a large measure which is actually 250ml - but comes in a carafe

 

[mrjitty]

I doubt it too.

I can understand why the Tapas 9 collectively refused to participate in a reconstruction as it couldn't but draw further and unwanted and unhelpful attention, again, upon their 'child-care' arrangements. They wanted, imo, a line drawn under what turned out to be their holiday from hell.

I am sure their lawyers encouraged them not to take part.

 

[mrjitty]

Am I the only one who finds that odd? So, rather than walk to the room, she just stands there for a few seconds (where exactly? Hovering at the patio door while it's open, or just stood motionless in the sitting room after entering, having now closed the patio door). After a few seconds of standing and listening, she now notices the bedroom door is open (why didn't she see it straight away? Why pause to listen?) . So, she goes over and tries to close the door, without even looking into the room at the kids. The door slams. Her next thought isn't to check in the room, but to retrace her steps back to the patio door to see if she left it open. I just find this a very strange sequence.

Going back to yesterday's posts, this is why I dismiss much of the tapas statements beyond the broad strokes.

They faced potential liability and scrutiny. They contaminated their statements. Too often things feel dramatised or embellished in a defensive way, to fit with the others.

It's why I say, if you read between the lines, the Met did not "find" creche man, so much as give JT an offramp to finally consign Tannerman to history where he rather obviously belongs.

 

[Dlk79]

I believe KM leaned out of the open window to look out. Therefore IMO it is fully consistent that her documented and photographed fingerprints were on the glass. However I cannot locate any palm-print being identified as of KM, which page of the PJ files please?

No, you're right. It only mentions 5 prints from 2 of her fingers in the file. In the Netflix doc, it mentions an "open palm" as if she had slid the window across. But perhaps they just mean the fingerprints were positioned as if in the form of an open palm as opposed to an actual palm print.

 

[axelcruze]

Going back to yesterday's posts, this is why I dismiss much of the tapas statements beyond the broad strokes.

They faced potential liability and scrutiny. They contaminated their statements. Too often things feel dramatised or embellished in a defensive way, to fit with the others.

It's why I say, if you read between the lines, the Met did not "find" creche man, so much as give JT an offramp to finally consign Tannerman to history where he rather obviously belongs.

I found these comments in an earlier thread around 2013 : "Just talking to my friend in Germany and she watched the programme, and from what she has said its different to ours in the UK. It actually shows Gerry and Jez on the other side of the road, and Jane Tanner walking on the opposite side on her own...."

Did the Met/Grange/Redwood etc come up with a version that made Tannerman possible to please Tanner, to ensure that the funds kept coming into their slush fund? I just think the statements and eye witness accounts are not reliable and play into FF. It is however important to think that there was no eyeball of CB on that day or that time anywhere in PDL, unless possibly a tourist photo with CB as background.

 

[mrjitty]

I found these comments in an earlier thread around 2013 : "Just talking to my friend in Germany and she watched the programme, and from what she has said its different to ours in the UK. It actually shows Gerry and Jez on the other side of the road, and Jane Tanner walking on the opposite side on her own...."

Did the Met/Grange/Redwood etc come up with a version that made Tannerman possible to please Tanner, to ensure that the funds kept coming into their slush fund? I just think the statements and eye witness accounts are not reliable and play into FF. It is however important to think that there was no eyeball of CB on that day or that time anywhere in PDL, unless possibly a tourist photo with CB as background.

Honestly I think it is inconceivable that Redwood would go on Crimewatch to announce the resolution of the most critical sighting in the case without having sat down with JT herself - likely informally. IMO, in a come to jesus type way, she ultimately agreed she saw crecheman, who also cannot be reconciled with her statements, or her ID of RM.

You have to read between the lines of what Redwood is really saying.

 

[Lilly b]

Honestly I think it is inconceivable that Redwood would go on Crimewatch to announce the resolution of the most critical sighting in the case without having sat down with JT herself - likely informally. IMO, in a come to jesus type way, she ultimately agreed she saw crecheman, who also cannot be reconciled with her statements, or her ID of RM.

You have to read between the lines of what Redwood is really saying.

Watch the old panorama program, JT speaks about it, and they show where she walks, and where GM and the other guy was

 

[mrjitty]

Watch the old panorama program, JT speaks about it, and they show where she walks, and where GM and the other guy was

I did. But none of it aligns with the various statements.

JT clearly states she does not remember where they were. Her rogatory was quite firm on that, but one was in the street, and one on the pavement. JW states clearly he was on the restaurant side. I find it hard to believe, that JW, heading uphill with his pram, was also somehow oriented to neither be looking up hill or towards the restaurant, so as not to see her - unless somehow they were both in the middle of the road and he was somehow looking mostly downhill at the critical moment. But if GM was looking away from the restaurant, it kind of suggests JW much have been looking towards the restaurant, and most likely in his direction of travel. In which case JT has to walk away from him, in his direct line of sight.

Then moments later she is seeing crecheman as well - who we know was going in the opposite direction to what she says....

I agree with Redwood - she is not relevant to the case, or to CB

 

[snowpea666]

This pic is from the pjfiles re 2 vehicles from the McCluskey sighting. At a glance, it looks resolved. But is it?
The McCluskeys saw a man exit a white pick up truck and stagger up the street carrying a child. They approach the vehicle and jot down the reg. A dark vehicle then pulls up with the occupants, 2 men- speaking English- saying they had turned their car around after seeing the man in the pick up truck seemingly hit the child. The McCluskey also jot down their registration.
A Ukranian couple were identified as owning the 2nd darker vehicle. At the address, the father nor the child could be identified since they had left for the Ukraine. But the Mum acknowledged the McCluskeys man was her husband and the child her daughter - coming home from crèche at 2am!
But the dark car and occupants were not the people in question here. It was a man whose initials are CALN, he is named with the vehicle. I cannot find anything in the files about him! Unless he is amongst the sex offenders? X

This imo is very very interesting

 

[snowpea666]

My opinion also is that that is what they might mean. I can't help thinking that the subsequent publicity would have pushed up the price of that content.

Oh for sure! hate to even say this or use this comparasson, but collectors of all sorts would want something so exclusive and prominent, It would feed their perversions and ego that they had obtained such material, and I think this would be very expensive, so so sad x