Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect #29

[RichardKimble]

Ok, so in effect whats being said is, the BKA must gather all material possible before 3/05/2007 in and from Portugal , what if after this date say CB or any one else for that matter was to confess to where her body was in Portugal, who would try and recover the remains, either the case is closed or its not.

 

[Davieson]

The Portuguese would still have jurisdiction even if they didn't do the retrieval.

 

[RichardKimble]

When the case was opened. As in all cases. That's the point of an investigation, to establish what took place

The case was reopened was it not by the PJ, so from then or from when the initial investigation started ?

 

[Anxala]

For this case though, there is no way a judge would give their okay to go public (bar the name) because CB would be considered a 'bad apple' . We are missing the evidence and the reasoning, which must have been compelling.

I appreciate that but, as MrJ says below -

Permission to make the appeal had judicial oversight, but what is curious to me, is that there is no oversight at all to what comes afterwards, including presumably HCW's comment about "if you knew what I knew"

Which is what I'm asking/wondering about: What consideration if any was given to the likely repercussions that such a public claim in June 2020 would generate if it appeared that no significant progress had been made eg. 21mths down the line?

Was the judge persuaded that the appeal would swiftly produce the missing bits that were, if we're to believe HCW, all that lay between finalising the BKA's investigation and an official charge against CB, and that it would all be done and dusted in a matter of months?

Surely no judge would have given the green light to naming a suspect without also an assurance that business would be conclusively done within a specific timeframe? The optics are not good here in March 2022.

 

[Davieson]

I appreciate that but, as MrJ says below -


What I'm asking/wondering about is what consideration if any was given to the likely repercussions that such a public claim would generate?

Was the judge persuaded that the appeal would swiftly produce the missing bits that were, if we're to believe HCW, all that lay between finalising the BKA's investigation and an official charge against CB, and that it would all be done and dusted in a matter of months?

Surely no judge would have given the green light without also an assurance that business would be done within a specific timeframe?

I seem to recall that Wolters said within 6 months in June 2020. Long past that date now and still nothing.
If he was thinking of waiting until statute of limitations ran , then he wouldn't have given a target date.

 

[frank-cole]

I appreciate that but, as MrJ says below -


Which is what I'm asking/wondering about: What consideration if any was given to the likely repercussions that such a public claim in June 2020 would generate if it appeared that no significant progress had been made 21mths down the line?

Was the judge persuaded that the appeal would swiftly produce the missing bits that were, if we're to believe HCW, all that lay between finalising the BKA's investigation and an official charge against CB, and that it would all be done and dusted in a matter of months?

Surely no judge would have given the green light to naming a suspect without also an assurance that business would be conclusively done within a specific timeframe? The optics are not good here in March 2022.

IMO I think the German’s presumed they’d get the information they needed quickly. It seems like corroborating CB’s presence at the scene is what they expect to be their clearest route to a conviction. A photo/video of CB in the area that afternoon/evening would have been said corroborating evidence & IMO I think they expected that evidence to come quickly.

The pandemic has likely slowed things & they also seem to want to conclude their 5 other investigations first, so perhaps bringing all of that information together has further slowed them down.

One would expect that the 5 other cases would bring charges or be dropped at some point in the near future.

I also think that their MM case has progressed from them not having enough to charge, to now having enough to charge ‘it is now possible we could charge, we have that evidence now’ HCW.

IMO the pressures off them in regards to getting enough for an arrest, they have the benefit of being able to investigate to strengthen their case, knowing that they’ve surpassed the threshold they needed to.

That all said, the tide is starting to turn & impatience is building, as is the frustration that CB has been very publicly accused for 2 years without charge. I doubt it’ll affect the BKA too much because (IMO) they know they have enough to charge

 

[Davieson]

IMO I think the German’s presumed they’d get the information they needed quickly. It seems like corroborating CB’s presence at the scene is what they expect to be their clearest route to a conviction. A photo/video of CB in the area that afternoon/evening would have been said corroborating evidence & IMO I think they expected that evidence to come quickly.

The pandemic has likely slowed things & they also seem to want to conclude their 5 other investigations first, so perhaps bringing all of that information together has further slowed them down.

One would expect that the 5 other cases would bring charges or be dropped at some point in the near future.

I also think that their MM case has progressed from them not having enough to charge, to now having enough to charge ‘it is now possible we could charge, we have that evidence now’ HCW.

IMO the pressures off them in regards to getting enough for an arrest, they have the benefit of being able to investigate to strengthen their case, knowing that they’ve surpassed the threshold they needed to.

That all said, the tide is starting to turn & impatience is building, as is the frustration that CB has been very publicly accused for 2 years without charge. I doubt it’ll affect the BKA too much because (IMO) they know they have enough to charge

Have BKA said they have 5 other charges, or is it media speculation ?

 

[Dlk79]

The below article from April 2021 talks about whether incriminating data uncovered from the Encrochat bust at the beginning of 2020 is admissible as Prosecution evidence in the Germans courts. Certain lawyers were appealing to the higher regional courts that the way the data was uncovered and passed to police is not constitutional with German privacy laws. On the whole, it appears the regional courts have not agreed with that assessment.

In amongst the article though, it mentions CB lawyer and says the following:

The Kiel lawyer Friedrich Fülscher criticizes the "government's eagerness to prosecute" as he describes it. In the opinion of the top judges in Hamburg, the purpose should apparently justify any means. Fülscher, 36, sits in his office in an old town house in the elegant district of Düsternbrook, the walls are adorned with caricatures of lawyers by the French artist Honoré Daumier. The lawyer is considered a specialist for tough cases, defending, among other things, members of organized crime or the alleged murderer of Madeleine McCann , who disappeared in Portugal in 2007.

Fülscher has just sent a complaint against his arrest, in which he attacks the previous case law. "The Higher Regional Court of Rostock demands that the accused provide proof of innocence. But German criminal law doesn't allow that.” If a complaint is successful, it could be painful for the criminal prosecutor. Dozens of criminals should be released despite the overwhelming evidence. But Flüscher has no illusions: "They defend their prey with all means."

EncroChat: Zweifel an Rechtmäßigkeit von Auswertung - WELT

I'm not sure if the above English translation is 100% accurate, can any German speakers clarify what is meant by the bolded sentence in the article or if anyone knows what specific 'complaint' is being referenced here?

 

[SuperdadV8]

The below article from April 2021 talks about whether incriminating data uncovered from the Encrochat bust at the beginning of 2020 is admissible as Prosecution evidence in the Germans courts. Certain lawyers were appealing to the higher regional courts that the way the data was uncovered and passed to police is not constitutional with German privacy laws. On the whole, it appears the regional courts have not agreed with that assessment.

In amongst the article though, it mentions CB lawyer and says the following:

The Kiel lawyer Friedrich Fülscher criticizes the "government's eagerness to prosecute" as he describes it. In the opinion of the top judges in Hamburg, the purpose should apparently justify any means. Fülscher, 36, sits in his office in an old town house in the elegant district of Düsternbrook, the walls are adorned with caricatures of lawyers by the French artist Honoré Daumier. The lawyer is considered a specialist for tough cases, defending, among other things, members of organized crime or the alleged murderer of Madeleine McCann , who disappeared in Portugal in 2007.

Fülscher has just sent a complaint against his arrest, in which he attacks the previous case law. "The Higher Regional Court of Rostock demands that the accused provide proof of innocence. But German criminal law doesn't allow that.” If a complaint is successful, it could be painful for the criminal prosecutor. Dozens of criminals should be released despite the overwhelming evidence. But Flüscher has no illusions: "They defend their prey with all means."

EncroChat: Zweifel an Rechtmäßigkeit von Auswertung - WELT

I'm not sure if the above English translation is 100% accurate, can any German speakers clarify what is meant by the bolded sentence in the article or if anyone knows what specific 'complaint' is being referenced here?

I mentioned just that many pages earlier, according to "Elysium", the australian darkweb-paedo raid in 2016. The investigation has been reported as criticized, because the australian prosecutors achieved access to the platform by using real child *advertiser censored*. Something, that legally isn't allowed in europe, as far as i know.

Just imagine having photos or a video, that makes you sure to be on the right track, but that isn't usable.

HCW asked for footage in one of his interviews. Maybe he just asked for a different source of things already known.

CB wrote to Jutta R. things like: "Are there photos of the crime???"

IMO CB knows very good what they have and what is maybe very difficult to utilize against him.

But just assumption. The BKA appeal is still online, so the reports of closing down OG do not seem to play a role yet.

 

[SuperdadV8]

I mentioned just that many pages earlier, according to "Elysium", the australian darkweb-paedo raid in 2016. The investigation has been reported as critized, because the australian prosecutors achieved access to the platform by using real child *advertiser censored*. Something, that legally isn't allowed in europe, as far as i know.

Just imagine having photos or a video, that makes you sure to be on the right track, but that isn't usable.

HCW asked for footage in one of his interviews. Maybe he just asked for a different source of things already known.

CB wrote to Jutta R. things like: "Are there photos of the crime???"

IMO CB knows very good what they have and what is maybe very difficult to utilize against him.

But just assumption. The BKA appeal is still online, so the reports of closing down OG do not seem to play a role yet.

And imagine paraguayan prosecutors claiming in the CMK case, linked to CB, to have possible clues in the MM case but won't give further info, unless the german prosecutors will allow them to do so.

I would like to see a pattern that could lead to an evidence-issue. Not it's absence, but it's usability maybe....

 

[mrjitty]

IMO BKA are running down the clock until 3/5/22 when the Statute of Limitations for murder expires in Portugal. I think that if CB is charged before then he could appeal to have his case tried in Portugal where he would receive a lesser sentence (8-16yrs) than in Germany (15yrs+ before parole considered). Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
IMO BKA want to allow absolutely no opportunities for any legal or political interference from Portugal before they move forward to the next phase of their investigation.

I am not sure you can appeal for your trial to be moved to a different country that isn't charging you. There is no way to make Portugal commence a substitute murder trial against you.

And germany does have jurisdiction to charge and try him.

 

[mrjitty]

An alternative is that they don't have the goods on him at all , other than some circumstantial evidence that persuaded them that he was their man. Perhaps this evidence is simply not strong enough to proceed to prosecution but they are reluctant to admit such at present.

It's possible, but then I really wonder why the german court would have allowed this

My personal theory that I have mentioned before is they believe they have a strong case, but think they can't get the conviction without the body, so it is the body they need.

IMO, without the body, FF will simply point to the PJ investigation and call the Lisbon witnesses, and that will be reasonable doubt. So a big risk for the prosecution.

 

[SuperdadV8]

It's possible, but then I really wonder why the german court would have allowed this

My personal theory that I have mentioned before is they believe they have a strong case, but think they can't get the conviction without the body, so it is the body they need.

IMO, without the body, FF will simply point to the PJ investigation and call the Lisbon witnesses, and that will be reasonable doubt. So a big risk for the prosecution.

Helge B. could be the key IMO. IF (!) there is a kind of evidence ban in relation to existing footage, Helge B. is a witness not related to that "strain", who possibly claimed that CB confessed to him and maybe a possible way to avoid the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine.

If there is some kind of evidence ban related to footage, the public appeal would never have been achieved the permission of a judge. But Helge B's confession, together with some other strong clues, could have been sufficent IMO.

Just a thought!

 

[SuperdadV8]

The below article from April 2021 talks about whether incriminating data uncovered from the Encrochat bust at the beginning of 2020 is admissible as Prosecution evidence in the Germans courts. Certain lawyers were appealing to the higher regional courts that the way the data was uncovered and passed to police is not constitutional with German privacy laws. On the whole, it appears the regional courts have not agreed with that assessment.

In amongst the article though, it mentions CB lawyer and says the following:

The Kiel lawyer Friedrich Fülscher criticizes the "government's eagerness to prosecute" as he describes it. In the opinion of the top judges in Hamburg, the purpose should apparently justify any means. Fülscher, 36, sits in his office in an old town house in the elegant district of Düsternbrook, the walls are adorned with caricatures of lawyers by the French artist Honoré Daumier. The lawyer is considered a specialist for tough cases, defending, among other things, members of organized crime or the alleged murderer of Madeleine McCann , who disappeared in Portugal in 2007.

Fülscher has just sent a complaint against his arrest, in which he attacks the previous case law. "The Higher Regional Court of Rostock demands that the accused provide proof of innocence. But German criminal law doesn't allow that.” If a complaint is successful, it could be painful for the criminal prosecutor. Dozens of criminals should be released despite the overwhelming evidence. But Flüscher has no illusions: "They defend their prey with all means."

EncroChat: Zweifel an Rechtmäßigkeit von Auswertung - WELT

I'm not sure if the above English translation is 100% accurate, can any German speakers clarify what is meant by the bolded sentence in the article or if anyone knows what specific 'complaint' is being referenced here?

AFAIK, there isn't a sentence made by the german supreme court yet.

Berlin court reverses ban on use of EncroChat evidence in criminal trials

Same with "Elysium". The prosecutors took over a profile and posted real footage, as far as i know. Same issue in some way.

Jagd auf 'Elysium': Das Ende der größten deutschen Kinderporno-Plattform

 

[SuperdadV8]

If somebody took the time to translate the second link i posted before......who wants to take some time talking about a darkweb-obsessed guy like CB and how many actions against him since 2020 don't seem to be "justified".....?

Just wake up guys....!

 

[mrjitty]

The below article from April 2021 talks about whether incriminating data uncovered from the Encrochat bust at the beginning of 2020 is admissible as Prosecution evidence in the Germans courts. Certain lawyers were appealing to the higher regional courts that the way the data was uncovered and passed to police is not constitutional with German privacy laws. On the whole, it appears the regional courts have not agreed with that assessment.

In amongst the article though, it mentions CB lawyer and says the following:

The Kiel lawyer Friedrich Fülscher criticizes the "government's eagerness to prosecute" as he describes it. In the opinion of the top judges in Hamburg, the purpose should apparently justify any means. Fülscher, 36, sits in his office in an old town house in the elegant district of Düsternbrook, the walls are adorned with caricatures of lawyers by the French artist Honoré Daumier. The lawyer is considered a specialist for tough cases, defending, among other things, members of organized crime or the alleged murderer of Madeleine McCann , who disappeared in Portugal in 2007.

Fülscher has just sent a complaint against his arrest, in which he attacks the previous case law. "The Higher Regional Court of Rostock demands that the accused provide proof of innocence. But German criminal law doesn't allow that.” If a complaint is successful, it could be painful for the criminal prosecutor. Dozens of criminals should be released despite the overwhelming evidence. But Flüscher has no illusions: "They defend their prey with all means."

EncroChat: Zweifel an Rechtmäßigkeit von Auswertung - WELT

I'm not sure if the above English translation is 100% accurate, can any German speakers clarify what is meant by the bolded sentence in the article or if anyone knows what specific 'complaint' is being referenced here?

I think the complaint is a legal submission against the detention of his client, along the lines that the state must prove guilt rather than his client having to prove innocence - presumably in the context of claiming the states evidence is illegally obtained.

 

[SuperdadV8]

If somebody took the time to translate the second link i posted before......who wants to take some time talking about a darkweb-obsessed guy like CB and how many actions against him since 2020 don't seem to be "justified".....?

Just wake up guys....!

Last statement from me for today. IF my theory may turn out as true some day? Wanna talk about a prosecutor trying to do as much as he can to solve that problem by acting "unusual"?

CB isn't the victim and everybody knows! He's playing with the system and it's rules. Like FF does. It's legal. Not more, not less.

PS: Lack of coffee-creamer can be a real pain in the ..... for a "victim"!

 

[Dlk79]

Another thing to bear in mind is the claim that police sent an undercover operative into prison to befriend CB. HCW gave a "no comment" when asked about the claim.

German police sent an undercover investigator into prison in an attempt to get Madeleine McCann suspect Christian Brueckner to confess to abducting her.

Officers arranged for a man to pose as a prisoner to befriend Brueckner behind bars.

They wanted to see if they could get him to lower his guard and admit his role in the abduction. But the trap failed.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/police-sent-undercover-investigator-prison-25749105

The report says the attempt was to "get a confession" but I doubt that was really the end goal. Evidence that CB confessed to an undercover agent would be indmissable in court and so no real use to prosecutors in this case. It is more likely (if it's true) that they were hoping to obtain some specific information, which they could then seek to corroborate through other means.

As much as I dislike quoting him, Amaral mentions the sting in his book and provides additional details that perhaps (if true) shed a light on what the real goal was. He claims that the undercover agent was sharing a cell with CB and was pretending to be incarcerated for crimes against children. It was said that the agent attempted to have conversations with CB about how he'd dispose of a corpse. GA says they shared a cell for a few days before the agent was supposedly taken to hospital for treatment and never returned. (Which does sound like an 'exit' strategy intended to not arouse suspicion about why this "prisoner" suddenly disappeared).

So it could be the main aim was to find out where CB might have hidden MM's body, but that this aspect was ultimately unsuccessful. However, asking how they'd dispose of a body is not something you casually drop into conversation with someone you have no rapport with. It's possible therefore that the agent did manage to build a relationship with CB and did get other sensitive information out of him. CB was quite the bragger after all, and confiding to a fellow "paedophile" about crimes he committed seems feasible if he did not immediately suspect a 'sting'. So it might be that the information they obtained further convinced the German authorities of CB's guilt in this case. But ultimately, it is evidence that cannot be used in a trial against him.

Also, the undercover agent story seems to have first appeared in the UK press in The Mirror last December but it cites no source for the claim. So it's quite probable that it actually originates directly from Amaral's book which came out two months earlier. Which begs the question, how did he find out about it? How did he know what conversations took place between them? Might it be directly through CB/FF, who retrospectively suspect this other 'prisoner' was actually a cop because of the questions he asked, and the things the BKA appear to know about?

 

[Dlk79]

I think the complaint is a legal submission against the detention of his client, along the lines that the state must prove guilt rather than his client having to prove innocence - presumably in the context of claiming the states evidence is illegally obtained.

But that doesn't seem to exactly fit with the context of what the article is all about. They are talking about the admissibility of the Encrochat data and the fact it was obtained without an initial criminal suspicion against the people it is now incriminating. I'm just not sure why FF and CB are brought into this article conversation given what it is about. Unless there is something specific in that Rostock ruling they feel is a problem for them?

 

[misty48]

I am not sure you can appeal for your trial to be moved to a different country that isn't charging you. There is no way to make Portugal commence a substitute murder trial against you.

And germany does have jurisdiction to charge and try him.

The right to a fair trial? CB could argue that he's been condemned in the German media but not so much so in Portugal where the alleged crime occurred. I'm just mooting a potential obstacle.
Currently Portugal still has primacy in the MM investigation itself and perhaps have certain evidence gathered at the outset which the BKA may require. Are there any circumstances under which Portugal could request CB's extradition at the 11th hour & ask BKA to send their evidence to Portugal if CB expressed a desire to be heard in Portugal?