Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #37

[Okapi]

Hey, I think we need to slow down a little.

1. She is not saying it’s rape.
2. The fact that she’s saying ‘it’s borderline rape’ could imply she was willing.
3. There is no current charge for this offence.
4. So far as we know, there is only HB’s word that this happened.
5. There is no conviction.

Saying this was rape and a criminal act cannot be ascertained from this information. Further, the recent info shared by HB points to it possibly not being.

It may have been but IMO, it’s far from certain - let’s not forget the lack of victim identity and statement.

I guess the crux of that one is that yes, it only exists as HB’s disclosure. As far as we the public are aware at least. And beyond his bald statements, we don’t have any context. However, as the old and new media reports have indicated that the woman was distressed, then in my mind it can only be regarded as non-consensual. That’s my personal perception. Opinions may vary, as they say.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I guess the crux of that one is that yes, it only exists as HB’s disclosure. As far as we the public are aware at least. And beyond his bald statements, we don’t have any context. However, as the old and new media reports have indicated that the woman was distressed, then in my mind it can only be regarded as non-consensual. That’s my personal perception. Opinions may vary, as they say.

It’s very difficult to understand what her mental condition was - a recording, a viewing and a statement. A lot can get lost of added the further away you get from the actual experience.

 

[RichardKimble]

I guess the crux of that one is that yes, it only exists as HB’s disclosure. As far as we the public are aware at least. And beyond his bald statements, we don’t have any context. However, as the old and new media reports have indicated that the woman was distressed, then in my mind it can only be regarded as non-consensual. That’s my personal perception. Opinions may vary, as they say.

Because of the divergence of opinions it allows sensible debate, now transfer the difficulties of understanding the context of statements from HB to the MM case in truth little is known save she was reported missing on the night of 3/05/2007.True there is a prime suspect who the BKA are certain killed the girl but as yet there is no end in sight.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

It’s a while ago but I read an article about HB that stated he had a grudge against CB over a drug deal where CB had ripped either him or MS off. Does anyone recall anything similar?

 

[mrjitty]

Millions read about the case all over Europe in 2007/8, and/or watched TV documentaries, and most of them will have thought 'if she was abducted she mustn't have screamed'. If that's all CB's supposed to have said to HB it's meaningless. It's not evidence.

This is one of the problems in this area in general. These scumbags brag about stuff. The online chats may mean something or may not, It all depends on the corroboration.

The Delphi case shows the extreme difficulties for law enforcement in untangling it, and especially the dangers of coincidence/randomness. You'd think a sex offender who was catfishing one of the victims would be the killer right? But it turns out they were likely killed at random by someone else.

This is why HCW need hard evidence to link CB to a murder and not "profiling" or "MO"

 

[C.greek]

This is new and from The Express:

He said: “[The victim] said: ‘This borders on rape!’ And he just said: ‘Shut up.’

It’s a direct quote. Note the ‘victim’ did not say it was rape. Does this imply that she was a willing participant in the act?

Madeleine McCann bombshell as key witness speaks out for first time

Key witness Helge Busching has explained how he learned of prime suspect Christian Brueckner's shady past.

www.express.co.uk

Are you implying that if a person willingly participates in a sexual act that turns violent without them wanting this, that it is not rape?

 

[Anxala]

This is new and from The Express:

He said: “[The victim] said: ‘This borders on rape!’ And he just said: ‘Shut up.’

It’s a direct quote. Note the ‘victim’ did not say it was rape. Does this imply that she was a willing participant in the act?

Madeleine McCann bombshell as key witness speaks out for first time

Key witness Helge Busching has explained how he learned of prime suspect Christian Brueckner's shady past.

www.express.co.uk

Honestly, if this is a true account of what HB witnessed (and that's certainly up for debate since I don't regard HB as particularly credible), the fact that CB's response was 'shut up' should really tell you everything you need to know as to the degree of consent at play here. ie. none. Let's not quibble over that, please.

Additionally, the context (from your link) implies it was the young girl, not the older 40s Italian woman:

Mr Busching recounted his recollection of witnessing the highly disturbing footage, which allegedly depicted Brueckner sexually abusing an elderly woman and a teenage girl in Portugal. He said: “[The victim] said: ‘This borders on rape!’ And he just said: ‘Shut up.’

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Are you implying that if a person willingly participates in a sexual act that turns violent without them wanting this, that it is not rape?

No, rather that there is a fine line between pleasure and pain for some people… at least according to The Divyinyls anyway.

Not that it’s my jam but whipping seems to be a common sexual activity, which some people would find a normal part of their sex life.

All we have to go on is that the woman was older, she was swearing at CB, he was whipping her and, importantly, she said, “This is borderline rape”.

To me these things could be rape but equally, they might not be, hence asking the question.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Honestly, if this is a true account of what HB witnessed (and that's certainly up for debate since I don't regard HB as particularly credible), the fact that CB's response was 'shut up' should really tell you everything you need to know as to the degree of consent at play here. ie. none. Let's not quibble over that, please.

Additionally, the context (from your link) implies it was the young girl, not the older 40s Italian woman:

The only challenge, I have, is that neither have come forward.

I think the quote from the article is ambiguous but I admit I thought it was the older woman.

We may find out the full extent of the evidence but based on what we know today, a guilty verdict is unlikely IMO.

 

[Anxala]

The only challenge, I have, is that neither have come forward.

I think the quote from the article is ambiguous but I admit I thought it was the older woman.

We may find out the full extent of the evidence but based on what we know today, a guilty verdict is unlikely IMO.

Well that's the thing, the reporting is vague so it's impossible to conclude anything of much substance from it.

I agree re the potential for a conviction here if all they have is HB's word, which appears to be all they have for the two unknowns, based on the charge sheet.

 

[C.greek]

The only challenge, I have, is that neither have come forward.

I think the quote from the article is ambiguous but I admit I thought it was the older woman.

We may find out the full extent of the evidence but based on what we know today, a guilty verdict is unlikely IMO.

I wouldn't want to enter this discussion but I just want to say that MANY victims of sexual violence do not come forward. This says nothing imo

 

[Consider Dudley]

No, rather that there is a fine line between pleasure and pain for some people… at least according to The Divyinyls anyway.

Not that it’s my jam but whipping seems to be a common sexual activity, which some people would find a normal part of their sex life.

All we have to go on is that the woman was older, she was swearing at CB, he was whipping her and, importantly, she said, “This is borderline rape”.

To me these things could be rape but equally, they might not be, hence asking the question.

And if it ever comes to court that will no doubt be the defence, it’s a common one used by men accused of rape.

 

[Okapi]

The only challenge, I have, is that neither have come forward.

I think the quote from the article is ambiguous but I admit I thought it was the older woman.

We may find out the full extent of the evidence but based on what we know today, a guilty verdict is unlikely IMO.

I actually assumed it was the older woman too. Either way, the distress comments leave the biggest impression on me.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I wouldn't want to enter this discussion but I just want to say that MANY victims of sexual violence do not come forward. This says nothing imo

A point I’ve been very clear about previously.

Rape and child murder are difficult subjects but they are inherent topics of this forum because of the suspect/offender - an abhorrent human.

I don’t sympathise with him but I have doubts he is guilty of anything related to MM.

 

[C.greek]

A point I’ve been very clear about previously.

Rape and child murder are difficult subjects but they are inherent topics of this forum because of the suspect/offender - an abhorrent human.

I don’t sympathise with him but I have doubts he is guilty of anything related to MM.

My comment had nothing to do with CB being the culprit in MM's disappearance. And all to do with the conversation into what constitutes rape and trying to find ways to say that what has been described by HB and included into the charge sheet as rape might not have been. It is clear if you read the BILD that HB talks about the teenage girl and whether you think age of consent is 14 in Portugal, this has been included in the charge sheet as rape. Finding excuses why this charge should or would be dropped, i.e. age of consent in Portugal, that she said "this Borders on rape' or implying in any way that it might have been consensual when the BKA think otherwise, or that because she hasn't come forward this might mean it was consensual, etc, is like raping this girl again. Please note not all of the above apply to your comments even though I quote your post but these are points that have been put forward in this thread. Jmo

 

[Davieson]

My comment had nothing to do with CB being the culprit in MM's disappearance. And all to do with the conversation into what constitutes rape and trying to find ways to say that what has been described by HB and included into the charge sheet as rape might not have been. It is clear if you read the BILD that HB talks about the teenage girl and whether you think age of consent is 14 in Portugal, this has been included in the charge sheet as rape. Finding excuses why this charge should or would be dropped, i.e. age of consent in Portugal, that she said "this Borders on rape' or implying in any way that it might have been consensual when the BKA think otherwise, or that because she hasn't come forward this might mean it was consensual, etc, is like raping this girl again. Please note not all of the above apply to your comments even though I quote your post but these are points that have been put forward in this thread. Jmo

"this Borders on rape'

Do you think this is the sort of thing a 14 year old is likely to say ?
To me, that's what an older, more experienced women might say

 

[Consider Dudley]

A point I’ve been very clear about previously.

Rape and child murder are difficult subjects but they are inherent topics of this forum because of the suspect/offender - an abhorrent human.

I don’t sympathise with him but I have doubts he is guilty of anything related to MM.

You also appear to have doubts that he is a rapist.

 

[Anxala]

"this Borders on rape'

Do you think this is the sort of thing a 14 year old is likely to say ?
To me, that's what an older, more experienced women might say

Yes, absolutely agree on that, not something a 14yr old would say.

Which takes us back to questioning the slapdash reporting and the reliability of both it and the witness account.

Neither has much merit imo.

 

[Consider Dudley]

"this Borders on rape'

Do you think this is the sort of thing a 14 year old is likely to say ?
To me, that's what an older, more experienced women might say

Let's not forget - this is something the witness claims he saw on a video how many years ago now? He has now recounted this information to a journalist (in his own language, or not we don't know) who has then written it up for a tabloid newspaper. What are the actual chances that this is a verbatim quote from the alleged victim?

 

[Mex]

Would defence have challenged parts of the evidence before jurisdiction had been decided?

I wouldn't think so.

Jurisdiction has been quite a delaying tactic. I would imagine there are more with the powder being kept dry.