Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #37

[Mex]

As you question the plausibility of an opportunistic abduction, I see it more as it could have been probably planned. Otherwise wouldn't it be more chaotic leaving traces? Would has he been even "luckier"?

I think he did do things on impulse when the opportunity arose but I think the MM kidnap was planned. Possibly planned for later in the small hours.

 

[Okapi]

"this Borders on rape'

Do you think this is the sort of thing a 14 year old is likely to say ?
To me, that's what an older, more experienced women might say

The phrase may be a ‘lost in translation’. That said, it’s not Chaucer in lexicon or concept, and ‘bordering on’ is a fairly common saying.

The cognisance of her situation…I would like to think that she recognised what rape is. Certainly by 14 she knew what ‘no’ means in any social interaction.

Imo it’s not impossible that a 14 year old could say that, in those circumstances. My own thoughts.

 

[RichardKimble]

From the charges posted by @Niner, it seems as if there is a charge of oral rape on the girl, so it's likely that HB is referring to the elderly person.

Germany/Portugal – *Charged (Oct. 11, 2022) - a 14 year old teenager (assaulted/hit the naked girl with a whip. Said to have brutally forced the girl to have oral sex. The accused also videotaped this act). Took place between Dec. 28, 2000 to April 8, 2006 on the Praia da Luz, Algarve coast, Portugal.
Germany/Portugal - *Charged (Oct. 11, 2022) - an elderly woman 70-80 yrs old (tied up & raped the victim in her holiday apt. He then hit the victim several times with a whip. The accused is said to have recorded the entire event with a video camera). Took place around the same time (between Dec. 28, 2000 to April 8, 2006) on the Praia de Luz, Algarve coast,

 

[Mex]

Wouldn't the information have been passed to PJ who were the investigating force at the time? The Met would have had no jurisdiction to act as CB wasn't on UK soil.

Spot on! SY had no locus in MM's case. All incoming information was sent to the PJ.

 

[RichardKimble]

Spot on! SY had no locus in MM's case. All incoming information was sent to the PJ.

You know this for certain?

 

[Davieson]

Spot on! SY had no locus in MM's case. All incoming information was sent to the PJ.

Unless it is recorded in PJ records, we have no way of knowing if this happened

 

[Mex]

KF talking about HB chat they had…

At about 2.55 is mentioned that HB reportedly gave CB name and contact details to MM hotline in 2008.

Wonder if there still exists some sort of record of this report .. and if so perhaps a log of what CB’s phone number was at the time ..

Or perhaps no trace of this supposed call by HB exists anymore .. ?

Quite possibly there is no record of the content remaining, but I think it highly likely there is a record of the actual transfer from SY to PJ.

 

[Mex]

He was providing a name of someone who had confessed?

Why did they take it seriously in 2017?

In 2017 MM's case was theirs to make their own decisions on how to process information received. They chose to be proactive, even to the extent of flying out to interview him in person.

 

[Lyall0814]

Spot on! SY had no locus in MM's case. All incoming information was sent to the PJ.

It wouldn't have interested officials in either UK or Portugal anyway. It appears all HB did in 2008 was report a very trivial piece of pretty meaningless information. And at the time there was no shortage of pretty meaningless information flying about.

 

[mrjitty]

I wouldn't think so.

Jurisdiction has been quite a delaying tactic. I would imagine there are more with the powder being kept dry.

German pre-trial procedure differs from the UK as there is no need to exclude evidence from a jury.

As I understand it, submissions will more focus on the evidence itself rather than trying to 'exclude' anything.

 

[RichardKimble]

My comment had nothing to do with CB being the culprit in MM's disappearance. And all to do with the conversation into what constitutes rape and trying to find ways to say that what has been described by HB and included into the charge sheet as rape might not have been. It is clear if you read the BILD that HB talks about the teenage girl and whether you think age of consent is 14 in Portugal, this has been included in the charge sheet as rape. Finding excuses why this charge should or would be dropped, i.e. age of consent in Portugal, that she said "this Borders on rape' or implying in any way that it might have been consensual when the BKA think otherwise, or that because she hasn't come forward this might mean it was consensual, etc, is like raping this girl again. Please note not all of the above apply to your comments even though I quote your post but these are points that have been put forward in this thread. Jmo

The reason I've raised some of the issues you refer to is and I've stated it's my opinion only, (much like those do that Wolters hasn't denied the existence of a photo of a dead Madeleine then one must exist).HB is coming forward talking of evidence he's seen on tape, if he's a prosecution witness why, imo it's because one of more of the cases has been challenged and is no longer wanted as a witness.The charges were presented to CB and his legal team in October, April wasn't it that they were dropped because of the jurisdiction thing we were told, plenty of time for the defence to pick out any challenges.Once again all opinion.
ETA, what FF said and HCW surprised response.

In a statement to the MailOnline Mr Fulscher said: "In its decision of April 19, 2023, the Regional Court of Braunschweig declared that it had no jurisdiction over the charge against Christian B and revoked the arrest warrant against him.
"The defense already pointed out during the preliminary proceedings that the Braunschweig judiciary should not have local jurisdiction. For reasons that are not understandable here, the public prosecutor's office in Braunschweig clung to its jurisdiction and thus risked being overturned by the Federal Court of Justice if it were opened.

"This is very questionable, in particular given the fact that a large number of witnesses would have had to appear in court again (on very incriminating issues) in the event of an annulment.

Brunswick prosecutor Hans Christian Wolters hit back at the lawyer's statement, and told the publication: "We have not yet been made aware of the court's ruling. We don't understand why Mr Fulscher has it ahead of us as these rulings should be given simultaneously to both parties.

"We are still trying to find out exactly what has happened and if it has gone against us we will appeal or have the case moved to another city of jurisdiction in Germany."

 

[Davieson]

Quite possibly there is no record of the content remaining, but I think it highly likely there is a record of the actual transfer from SY to PJ.

In which case its only supposition and we shall never know

 

[Consider Dudley]

It wouldn't have interested officials in either UK or Portugal anyway. It appears all HB did in 2008 was report a very trivial piece of pretty meaningless information. And at the time there was no shortage of pretty meaningless information flying about.

It's exactly this sort of information (seemingly trivial and meaningless) that often provides the much needed breakthrough that the police are looking for which is why they shouldn't be filed in the bin without some serious consideration first. IMO.

 

[Mex]

Millions read about the case all over Europe in 2007/8, and/or watched TV documentaries, and most of them will have thought 'if she was abducted she mustn't have screamed'. If that's all CB's supposed to have said to HB it's meaningless. It's not evidence.

It corresponds with the situation described by the only eye witness to a child being carried away from the immediate direction of apartment 5a around the time in question.

 

[RichardKimble]

It corresponds with the situation described by the only eye witness to a child being carried away from the immediate direction of apartment 5a around the time in question.

There were two.We know that the Tanner sighting is dismissed for two reasons, the most important being the holiday maker who was in the area at that time never saw anything suspicious, how is this known, DCI Redwood moving the timeline on.

 

[mrjitty]

The reason I've raised some of the issues you refer to is and I've stated it's my opinion only, (much like those do that Wolters hasn't denied the existence of a photo of a dead Madeleine then one must exist).HB is coming forward talking of evidence he's seen on tape, if he's a prosecution witness why, imo it's because one of more of the cases has been challenged and is no longer wanted as a witness.The charges were presented to CB and his legal team in October, April wasn't it that they were dropped because of the jurisdiction thing we were told, plenty of time for the defence to pick out any challenges.Once again all opinion.
ETA, what FF said and HCW surprised response.

In a statement to the MailOnline Mr Fulscher said: "In its decision of April 19, 2023, the Regional Court of Braunschweig declared that it had no jurisdiction over the charge against Christian B and revoked the arrest warrant against him.
"The defense already pointed out during the preliminary proceedings that the Braunschweig judiciary should not have local jurisdiction. For reasons that are not understandable here, the public prosecutor's office in Braunschweig clung to its jurisdiction and thus risked being overturned by the Federal Court of Justice if it were opened.

"This is very questionable, in particular given the fact that a large number of witnesses would have had to appear in court again (on very incriminating issues) in the event of an annulment.

Brunswick prosecutor Hans Christian Wolters hit back at the lawyer's statement, and told the publication: "We have not yet been made aware of the court's ruling. We don't understand why Mr Fulscher has it ahead of us as these rulings should be given simultaneously to both parties.

"We are still trying to find out exactly what has happened and if it has gone against us we will appeal or have the case moved to another city of jurisdiction in Germany."

I don't think so.

He probably just sold his story, or couldn't resist the limelight.

He is one of the two critical witness in the videotape rape trials - he will definitely be testifying. Remember the Judge controls the witnesses.

 

[Lyall0814]

It's exactly this sort of information (seemingly trivial and meaningless) that often provides the much needed breakthrough that the police are looking for which is why they shouldn't be filed in the bin without some serious consideration first. IMO.

You're right of course but I think it's difficult to imagine just how much information was being sent to authorities in 2007 and 2008. Public interest was massive, and so inevitably was the volume of information being generated by those who were genuinely just trying to help but who were actually more than likely inadvertently burying the important in an ocean of triviality. HB's message wouldn't have stood out. (imo)

 

[RichardKimble]

I don't think so.

He probably just sold his story, or couldn't resist the limelight.

He is one of the two critical witness in the videotape rape trials - he will definitely be testifying. Remember the Judge controls the witnesses.

Who ever represents CB in court would have a field day then questioning why he's selling a story before a court heard it, not sure it would be seen favourably by the judges.If he's the chief prosecution witness in two of the cases, doesn't say much, once again imo.

 

[Mex]

Hey, I think we need to slow down a little.

1. She is not saying it’s rape.
2. The fact that she’s saying ‘it’s borderline rape’ could imply she was willing.
3. There is no current charge for this offence.
4. So far as we know, there is only HB’s word that this happened.
5. There is no conviction.

Saying this was rape and a criminal act cannot be ascertained from this information. Further, the recent info shared by HB points to it possibly not being.

It may have been but IMO, it’s far from certain - let’s not forget the lack of victim identity and statement.

I think what a great pity it is that procedural issues have prevented all these arguments from being appraised in a court of law instead of in the tabloids.

 

[Lyall0814]

It corresponds with the situation described by the only eye witness to a child being carried away from the immediate direction of apartment 5a around the time in question.

Not really. Everyone who read about the case knew if MM was abducted nobody heard any screams.