Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #38

[Denis R Tandib]

I guess you're right but there must be some reason why they waited until they could charge all five offences at the same time. They could have charged at least two of them years ago I think. But they didn't, they waited. There must be a reason (or not. Maybe their work privately is actually as chaotic as it looks from our perspective. Certainly looks chaotic doesn't it)

The two that they could’ve charged are minor by comparison to the other three and MM.

The only crime they can link due to the appeal is the HaB rape.

IMO, they were hoping for a whole lot more in terms of number of offences and quality of evidence. In making a monster, they hoped for Godzilla but ended up with Zippy from Rainbow.

So they had to circle back to what they had: two alleged rapes with little support (not even victims), and two cases of public masturbation. Plus HaB, there is narrative but it’s not a Dostoyevsky!

 

[JB1510]

I think so. IIRC, the web chats with Panikspatz were in 2013. They were retrieved from a PC found at the box factory.

There are multiple sources and a Cgreek provided quite a bit of info on this forum.

The webchat with Panikspatz was unknowingly sent from the computer of somebody CB knew whilst he was staying at their house.

The police subsequently raided it after dismissing the house owner they soon established it was CB .Given it was done on Skype makes you think that Pspatz was possibly more than just a forum associate.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I guess you're right but there must be some reason why they waited until they could charge all five offences at the same time. They could have charged at least two of them years ago I think. But they didn't, they waited. There must be a reason (or not. Maybe their work privately is actually as chaotic as it looks from our perspective. Certainly looks chaotic doesn't it)

The HaB case could offer some support to the two cases with unidentified victims… if there are similarities between HaB’s original statement and information provided by HeB.

I guess I’m saying things that were consistent in the two videos and HaB’s statement but perhaps different to DM’s statement of what happened to her.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

The webchat with Panikspatz was unknowingly sent from the computer of somebody CB knew whilst he was staying at their house.

The police subsequently raided it after dismissing the house owner they soon established it was CB .Given it was done on Skype makes you think that Pspatz was possibly more than just a forum associate.

Yes, you’re right.

Do we know who it was? AB perhaps?

 

[JB1510]

Yes, you’re right.

Do we know who it was? AB perhaps?

Not got access to check atm but I think it was a guy called Mono or something similar.

 

[Mex]

The two that they could’ve charged are minor by comparison to the other three and MM.

The only crime they can link due to the appeal is the HaB rape.

IMO, they were hoping for a whole lot more in terms of number of offences and quality of evidence. In making a monster, they hoped for Godzilla but ended up with Zippy from Rainbow.

So they had to circle back to what they had: two alleged rapes with little support (not even victims), and two cases of public masturbation. Plus HaB, there is narrative but it’s not a Dostoyevsky!

I think the best chance of conviction lies in three of the charges. I've no idea why the two apparently nebulous alleged rapes were included. I'm sure there will be a reason for that, at present known only to the defence and the prosecution.

If there is a trial all may be revealed and we will know it too,

 

[Pixie Child]

The webchat with Panikspatz was unknowingly sent from the computer of somebody CB knew whilst he was staying at their house.

The police subsequently raided it after dismissing the house owner they soon established it was CB .Given it was done on Skype makes you think that Pspatz was possibly more than just a forum associate.

This is the first I’ve heard of this.

So the chat was reported to police by Skype?

 

[JB1510]

This is the first I’ve heard of this.

So the chat was reported to police by Skype?

Not sure if it was reported or picked up solely by the police infiltrating it .The raid was at a flat complex where CB was registered whilst living and working at the kiosk but apparently only stayed there for a while , as did his work associate from the kiosk . CB used the wifi of another occupant Momo to chat with Panikspatz and hence the reason why Momo had to buy a new front door .

 

[Lyall0814]

I think the best chance of conviction lies in three of the charges. I've no idea why the two apparently nebulous alleged rapes were included. I'm sure there will be a reason for that, at present known only to the defence and the prosecution.

If there is a trial all may be revealed and we will know it too,

They're lawyers and if they can get an opportunity to stretch the rules about admissible evidence they'll take it. That's my theory. (and they might need to stretch/bend the rules again to have any chance of charging re: MM)

It'll likely help increase the sentence also (assuming all goes well in the prosecution of the other three cases)

 

[Lyall0814]

The HaB case could offer some support to the two cases with unidentified victims… if there are similarities between HaB’s original statement and information provided by HeB.

I guess I’m saying things that were consistent in the two videos and HaB’s statement but perhaps different to DM’s statement of what happened to her.

Hmmm FF won't be happy about this strategy will he. Defence lawyers all over the world won't be either. It's surely controversial.

 

[Pixie Child]

Not sure if it was reported or picked up solely by the police infiltrating it .The raid was at a flat complex where CB was registered whilst living and working at the kiosk but apparently only stayed there for a while , as did his work associate from the kiosk . CB used the wifi of another occupant Momo to chat with Panikspatz and hence the reason why Momo had to buy a new front door .

I missed that entirely!

It was also reported that police discovered it when raiding his flat following the report re the girlfriend’s child. They could be connected I guess.

 

[Pixie Child]

I think the best chance of conviction lies in three of the charges. I've no idea why the two apparently nebulous alleged rapes were included. I'm sure there will be a reason for that, at present known only to the defence and the prosecution.

If there is a trial all may be revealed and we will know it too,

The Defence would apply to have those 2 charges thrown out. If no victims have come forward after the extensive publicity, then the Judge would likely agree to strike them.

But if CB confessed to the other charges, then he could agree to have those lesser charges taken into account in sentencing - so he couldn’t be charged in future.

 

[Davieson]

The Defence would apply to have those 2 charges thrown out. If no victims have come forward after the extensive publicity, then the Judge would likely agree to strike them.

But if CB confessed to the other charges, then he could agree to have those lesser charges taken into account in sentencing - so he couldn’t be charged in future.T

That might be so in UK. Does the same apply in Germany ?

 

[Mex]

They're lawyers and if they can get an opportunity to stretch the rules about admissible evidence they'll take it. That's my theory. (and they might need to stretch/bend the rules again to have any chance of charging re: MM)

It'll likely help increase the sentence also (assuming all goes well in the prosecution of the other three cases)

I honestly do not think that there will be any question of any irregularities on the part of either party. As you say, they are lawyers and they will be watching each other like hawks ensuring that everything is above board and most important is done legally.

For example the situation arising from the jurisdiction issue is just procedure which is binding on everyone concerned.

There will be no need to bend or stretch any rules to enable CB to be indicted for murder.
The prosecutors will either have the evidence to do so or they won't.
There will be no ambiguity or room for movement on any of that. If charges are brought they will be kosher. They need to be to withstand the rigours of being tested in court.
My opinion

 

[Lyall0814]

I honestly do not think that there will be any question of any irregularities on the part of either party. As you say, they are lawyers and they will be watching each other like hawks ensuring that everything is above board and most important is done legally.

For example the situation arising from the jurisdiction issue is just procedure which is binding on everyone concerned.

There will be no need to bend or stretch any rules to enable CB to be indicted for murder.
The prosecutors will either have the evidence to do so or they won't.
There will be no ambiguity or room for movement on any of that. If charges are brought they will be kosher. They need to be to withstand the rigours of being tested in court.
My opinion

I didn't say irregularities. If the judge approves the admissibility of the evidence then it's not irregular. The evidence of those saying they saw a video that no longer exists was approved in the previous trial. But it's not evidence that would be approved in every trial. Has such evidence ever been used in a UK trial? I don't know of any.

 

[mrjitty]

The HaB case could offer some support to the two cases with unidentified victims… if there are similarities between HaB’s original statement and information provided by HeB.

I guess I’m saying things that were consistent in the two videos and HaB’s statement but perhaps different to DM’s statement of what happened to her.

I think it's mostly when they charged the original rape they didn't have the identities of the victims seen in the videos. So now they are charging those after spending years post appeal unsuccessfully to find the victims - on the basis of the holdings in the original rape case that Helge B and associate must have been truthful.

 

[mrjitty]

The webchat with Panikspatz was unknowingly sent from the computer of somebody CB knew whilst he was staying at their house.

The police subsequently raided it after dismissing the house owner they soon established it was CB .Given it was done on Skype makes you think that Pspatz was possibly more than just a forum associate.

What was the sourcing for this can I ask?

I remember the discussions but I don’t recall where this info came from

 

[frank-cole]

Who says there was a single serial offender?

Most likely a single serial offender IMO. MO is the same. The lack of PJ competence doesn’t grow or diminish relative to whether it was 1 or 50 offenders. But IMO just 1.

 

[frank-cole]

IMO you "want" statistics that rely on what is really reported.
IMO in Algarve, during that period, the real issue was what happened and was not reported, documented, recorded.
And looking to the context and scenario of resorts, dimension, "small" area, and massive tourism.

Well said. Your point is substantiated with number of sex crimes that were identified by other LEA’s. Which were either not reported, not documented & not recorded . 28 incidences of a male accessing little girls bedrooms, 2 rapes, 2 counts of child assault - picked up by foreign LEA’s. I think it would be incredibly stupid to assume that all of the sexual crimes from the CB era have been identified.

 

[Mex]

I didn't say irregularities. If the judge approves the admissibility of the evidence then it's not irregular. The evidence of those saying they saw a video that no longer exists was approved in the previous trial. But it's not evidence that would be approved in every trial. Has such evidence ever been used in a UK trial? I don't know of any.

If the precedent has been set in Germany for what is admissible in court it could be an uphill struggle to argue against that.

But the conviction of rape CB received did not by any means rely solely on testimony from an unseen video. Which was more of a pointer to real evidence in which the hearsay of the informants was corroborated by the sequence of events from the sworn testimony of the survivor of the actual aggravated rape and torture as described in the video.

The provenance of the video was thus established.

The clincher was of course the forensic evidence.

If anyone tries to overturn the verdict achieved in the vile rape of AM they are going to have their work cut out and will fail miserably. The verdict did not rely on a non existent video. The verdict was arrived at as a direct result of witness evidence from the survivor, the police files recording the rape and forensic evidence harvested at the time.
My opinion