Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #39

[Mex]

My response to @onemoremiletogo was to point out that police activity, the suspect’s letters to media outlets and his profile are not logical reasons to suggest he is guilty. He suggested that these things logically make CB guilty, which is untrue.

It is logical to doubt guilt and be sceptical of a suspects involvement in a crime until proven otherwise. This is not my opinion, it’s the way our legal systems operate.

The legal system under which cases raised against CB will be processed is the German one.

With respect my money is on the German practitioners in that arena. We have witnessed CB's legal teams using their expertise in the field; <modsnip: off topic>

 

[onemoremiletogo]

My response to @onemoremiletogo was to point out that police activity, the suspect’s letters to media outlets and his profile are not logical reasons to suggest he is guilty. He suggested that these things logically make CB guilty, which is untrue.

It is logical to doubt guilt and be sceptical of a suspects involvement in a crime until proven otherwise. This is not my opinion, it’s the way our legal systems operate.

Those are the philosophies and operationality of justice, which doubts until/unless proven otherwise.

CB is the BKA's suspect. I mentioned (IMO), there are other things that may also be relevant to give some clues to that suspiction. And even others that we don't know. And so, he is the one that, logically, seems to me to be involved. It seems the case is still on-going. No others are being investigated at least based on BKA's feedback.
Charges (if any, if they come) will have to then be brought to trial. Very challenging perhaps, after all these years, but hope BKA is able to get the final proof.
Honestly, I'm more interested in opinions (rather than "negations"), based on what is known by now. I really think they have the right man.
For those who think CB has nothing to do with MM and asks for crucial evidence that I suppose they don't actually believe it will come, perhaps it would be also informative to know who they think may have been involved. But, in fact, this topic is still about CB.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Allison McGarrigle - vanished in June 1997 and was formally declared dead eight years later. Paedophiles Charles O'Neill and William Lauchlan were later jailed for her murder.

^Outside the timeframe.

Arlene Fraser - disappeared from the family home in Smith Street, Elgin, Moray, on 28 April, 1998. Her husband Nat was found guilty of her murder after a second trial in 2012

^Okay, technically it meets the requirements
(although 25 years ago) BUT, the accused was the victim’s husband and was already facing a charge of attempted murder against his wife. There were three men originally accused of the crime, one of whom cut a deal and gave very specific information about the murder and disposal of the body. I think this is quite different from the MM case.

Suzanne Pilley - The Edinburgh book keeper went missing in May 2010. Her lover David Gilroy was later convicted of her murder and burying her in a remote part of Argyll.

^ This is an interesting case. First, blood and cadaver dogs were used as evidence. Second, the suspect, the victim’s on-again/off-again boyfriend’s mobile phone showed approximately 50 text messages per day to her prior to her death. After her death, for no apparent reason, this reduced to zero. It meets the requirements but the evidence that the boyfriend committed the murder is quite strong.

Lynda Spence - The businesswoman disappeared in April 2011 Colin Coats and Philip Wade were found guilty of abducting, torturing and murdering the 27-year-old.

^Blood was recovered from the murder scene. Two men witness her being horrifically tortured. The convicted criminals were drug dealers and the victim was a criminal who committed fraud against organised crime gangs.

Margaret Fleming’s murderer’s were her carers who had fraudulently claimed her benefits for 17 years (£182k) leaving physical evidence and a motive.

I think these cases are very different to that of CB and MM. in each of the above circumstances the victims knew the murderers well - in all but the gangland case the perpetrators were romantic partners or lived with the victims. In each case, there is strong physical evidence and a clear motive for the crimes.

With MM and CB, it is allegedly a stranger murder, no digital footprint of the victim or banking records, no forensics and no body.

Let’s see if a charge is coming… I doubt it.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

There has been no indictment in MM's case. Nor is there any necessity for undue haste regarding that fact for the simple reasons

• the suspect is already in custody
• the suspect still has two years of his current sentence to serve
• investigators are still in the field working MM's case most recently as far as we know, at the Arade dam

There is no reason for the prosecutor to publicly reduce his confidence that the suspect will be charged - why would he do that?

In any event, getting a conviction will be very difficult. You would be well served in reviewing the comments from the prosecutor in the Margaret Fleming case and he had clear evidence that her benefits had been fraudulently claimed by the suspects for 17 years.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Those are the philosophies and operationality of justice, which doubts until/unless proven otherwise.

CB is the BKA's suspect. I mentioned (IMO), there are other things that may also be relevant to give some clues to that suspiction. And even others that we don't know. And so, he is the one that, logically, seems to me to be involved. It seems the case is still on-going. No others are being investigated at least based on BKA's feedback.
Charges (if any, if they come) will have to then be brought to trial. Very challenging perhaps, after all these years, but hope BKA is able to get the final proof.
Honestly, I'm more interested in opinions (rather than "negations"), based on what is known by now. I really think they have the right man.
For those who think CB has nothing to do with MM and asks for crucial evidence that I suppose they don't actually believe it will come, perhaps it would be also informative to know who they think may have been involved. But, in fact, this topic is still about CB.

I am open to CB being guilty but to think he is based on what we know currently is IMO illogical.

 

[Consider Dudley]

I am open to CB being guilty but to think he is based on what we know currently is IMO illogical.

Why? Are HCW and the BKA also being illogical in your view? How are any crimes ever solved if investigators don’t begin with a suspicion that is based on a logical interpretation of known facts and evidence?

 

[Mex]

^Outside the timeframe.


^Okay, technically it meets the requirements
(although 25 years ago) BUT, the accused was the victim’s husband and was already facing a charge of attempted murder against his wife. There were three men originally accused of the crime, one of whom cut a deal and gave very specific information about the murder and disposal of the body. I think this is quite different from the MM case.


^ This is an interesting case. First, blood and cadaver dogs were used as evidence. Second, the suspect, the victim’s on-again/off-again boyfriend’s mobile phone showed approximately 50 text messages per day to her prior to her death. After her death, for no apparent reason, this reduced to zero. It meets the requirements but the evidence that the boyfriend committed the murder is quite strong.


^Blood was recovered from the murder scene. Two men witness her being horrifically tortured. The convicted criminals were drug dealers and the victim was a criminal who committed fraud against organised crime gangs.

Margaret Fleming’s murderer’s were her carers who had fraudulently claimed her benefits for 17 years (£182k) leaving physical evidence and a motive.

I think these cases are very different to that of CB and MM. in each of the above circumstances the victims knew the murderers well - in all but the gangland case the perpetrators were romantic partners or lived with the victims. In each case, there is strong physical evidence and a clear motive for the crimes.

With MM and CB, it is allegedly a stranger murder, no digital footprint of the victim or banking records, no forensics and no body.

Let’s see if a charge is coming… I doubt it.

The requirement was "murder without a body" and no-one on this earth actually knows how many of those there are.

Perhaps of more relevance to missing MM and CB's cases are the horrendous implications for vulnerable people who in present day slavery are known about but whose situations are neglected.

These are the "what about all the other missing children" that no-one is looking for some of whom don't even have a name.

I watched what appears to be an updated Netflix documentary on MM very recently with original footage with added commentary. The most emotive commentary concerned Metodo3 and their entry into the horrible world of internet *advertiser censored* during their search for MM. They managed to interrupt one Spanish abuse ring but that success was drop in the ocean.

Snip
The new Netflix documentary series revisits one of the biggest missing-child cases in history.
By Sophie Gilbert

'The Disappearance of Madeleine McCann' Is an Emotional, Exhaustive Project

The new Netflix documentary series revisits one of the biggest missing-child cases in history.

www.theatlantic.com

(continues behind a paywall - but I recommend visiting the Netflix update)

Snip
The majority of child trafficking victims who vanished from care are from Vietnam, Albania and the UK. Most of the unaccompanied children who went missing are from Afghanistan, Eritrea, Albania and Vietnam.

Despite the high numbers, Ecpat says that the real scale of the UK’s missing child trafficking victims is still not accurately reflected in the data.

Chloe Setter, Ecpat UK’s head of advocacy and policy, said there was “huge concern” that only 45 of the 217 local authorities asked for information were able or willing to provide data on the numbers of children whose whereabouts were still unknown.

“I think what is most alarming about this survey isn’t the data we’ve received, it is the data that we haven’t,” said Setter.
_________________________________________
It is unacceptable that we can’t get a clear picture on how many exploited children are simply falling off the radar and, in the case of trafficked children, presumed to be back in the hands of their exploiters. These are hundreds of children who have simply vanished from places where they should have been protected.”

Child trafficking victims disappearing from UK care at 'alarming' rate

Report says true scale of trafficked children who have gone missing is unclear as many local authorities lack data on how many are in their care

www.theguardian.com

Part of the evidence we know about concerning CB is his involvement in exploitation, from personal data collections and his internet presence.

 

[Davieson]

The requirement was "murder without a body" and no-one on this earth actually knows how many of those there are.

Perhaps of more relevance to missing MM and CB's cases are the horrendous implications for vulnerable people who in present day slavery are known about but whose situations are neglected.

These are the "what about all the other missing children" that no-one is looking for some of whom don't even have a name.

I watched what appears to be an updated Netflix documentary on MM very recently with original footage with added commentary. The most emotive commentary concerned Metodo3 and their entry into the horrible world of internet *advertiser censored* during their search for MM. They managed to interrupt one Spanish abuse ring but that success was drop in the ocean.

Snip
The new Netflix documentary series revisits one of the biggest missing-child cases in history.
By Sophie Gilbert

'The Disappearance of Madeleine McCann' Is an Emotional, Exhaustive Project

The new Netflix documentary series revisits one of the biggest missing-child cases in history.

www.theatlantic.com

(continues behind a paywall - but I recommend visiting the Netflix update)

Snip
The majority of child trafficking victims who vanished from care are from Vietnam, Albania and the UK. Most of the unaccompanied children who went missing are from Afghanistan, Eritrea, Albania and Vietnam.

Despite the high numbers, Ecpat says that the real scale of the UK’s missing child trafficking victims is still not accurately reflected in the data.

Chloe Setter, Ecpat UK’s head of advocacy and policy, said there was “huge concern” that only 45 of the 217 local authorities asked for information were able or willing to provide data on the numbers of children whose whereabouts were still unknown.

“I think what is most alarming about this survey isn’t the data we’ve received, it is the data that we haven’t,” said Setter.
_________________________________________
It is unacceptable that we can’t get a clear picture on how many exploited children are simply falling off the radar and, in the case of trafficked children, presumed to be back in the hands of their exploiters. These are hundreds of children who have simply vanished from places where they should have been protected.”

Child trafficking victims disappearing from UK care at 'alarming' rate

Report says true scale of trafficked children who have gone missing is unclear as many local authorities lack data on how many are in their care

www.theguardian.com

Part of the evidence we know about concerning CB is his involvement in exploitation, from personal data collections and his internet presence.

I'm not aware of any evidence that shows MM to be the victim of trafficking or paedophilia. Is there any ?

 

[Denis R Tandib]

The requirement was "murder without a body" and no-one on this earth actually knows how many of those there are.

Perhaps of more relevance to missing MM and CB's cases are the horrendous implications for vulnerable people who in present day slavery are known about but whose situations are neglected.

These are the "what about all the other missing children" that no-one is looking for some of whom don't even have a name.

I watched what appears to be an updated Netflix documentary on MM very recently with original footage with added commentary. The most emotive commentary concerned Metodo3 and their entry into the horrible world of internet *advertiser censored* during their search for MM. They managed to interrupt one Spanish abuse ring but that success was drop in the ocean.

Snip
The new Netflix documentary series revisits one of the biggest missing-child cases in history.
By Sophie Gilbert

'The Disappearance of Madeleine McCann' Is an Emotional, Exhaustive Project

The new Netflix documentary series revisits one of the biggest missing-child cases in history.

www.theatlantic.com

(continues behind a paywall - but I recommend visiting the Netflix update)

Snip
The majority of child trafficking victims who vanished from care are from Vietnam, Albania and the UK. Most of the unaccompanied children who went missing are from Afghanistan, Eritrea, Albania and Vietnam.

Despite the high numbers, Ecpat says that the real scale of the UK’s missing child trafficking victims is still not accurately reflected in the data.

Chloe Setter, Ecpat UK’s head of advocacy and policy, said there was “huge concern” that only 45 of the 217 local authorities asked for information were able or willing to provide data on the numbers of children whose whereabouts were still unknown.

“I think what is most alarming about this survey isn’t the data we’ve received, it is the data that we haven’t,” said Setter.
_________________________________________
It is unacceptable that we can’t get a clear picture on how many exploited children are simply falling off the radar and, in the case of trafficked children, presumed to be back in the hands of their exploiters. These are hundreds of children who have simply vanished from places where they should have been protected.”

Child trafficking victims disappearing from UK care at 'alarming' rate

Report says true scale of trafficked children who have gone missing is unclear as many local authorities lack data on how many are in their care

www.theguardian.com

Part of the evidence we know about concerning CB is his involvement in exploitation, from personal data collections and his internet presence.

It’s not necessary to repeat the problems with CB’s character or his criminal past. No one is arguing that he is a paragon of virtue. He’s disputable criminal.

However, his involvement in exploitation does not mean he is responsible for any crime against MM and that’s what we are discussing.

 

[Mex]

A suspect is what he certainly, but at this stage, nothing more.
There have been many suspects in this long running saga. There may yet be more.

Off the top of my head I'm not sure of the exact number of suspects Scotland Yard started off with. Certainly over 100 among whom were the three burglars interviewed in 2014.

All were investigated and dropped from the inquiry.

CB has been investigated and has not been eliminated from the inquiry. In fact, far from being dropped from the case CB is still under significant active police investigation. And until evidence to the contrary arises he will remain a suspect in MM's case.

 

[Consider Dudley]

It’s not necessary to repeat the problems with CB’s character or his criminal past. No one is arguing that he is a paragon of virtue. He’s disputable criminal.

However, his involvement in exploitation does not mean he is responsible for any crime against MM and that’s what we are discussing.

It certainly doesn’t rule him out, in fact what does? If it’s illogical to think he is involved then does it follow that it is logical to think he is not involved? On what basis?

 

[Anxala]

For those who think CB has nothing to do with MM and asks for crucial evidence that I suppose they don't actually believe it will come, perhaps it would be also informative to know who they think may have been involved. But, in fact, this topic is still about CB.

It's a difficult - if not actually impossible - one to discuss because we're limited by the T&Cs of this thread. Which we have to respect.

FWIW, my stance is based entirely on the fact that I don't believe an abduction took place. There's not a single shred of credible evidence to this day that points to an abduction. That's my informed position and I can't change it just because HCW claims otherwise. Could CB be involved at some level? I guess at a stretch it's possible, but any level I can come up has to involve other people, but HCW says he acted on his own. So... ?

It's why it's so important for CB to be charged and this case goes to trial. Apart from anything else, it will open up the gates for proper and meaningful discussion that only a charge and trial can give the green light to.

 

[Consider Dudley]

It's a difficult - if not actually impossible - one to discuss because we're limited by the T&Cs of this thread. Which we have to respect.

FWIW, my stance is based entirely on the fact that I don't believe an abduction took place. There's not a single shred of credible evidence to this day that points to an abduction. That's my informed position and I can't change it just because HCW claims otherwise. Could CB be involved at some level? I guess at a stretch it's possible, but any level I can come up has to involve other people, but HCW says he acted on his own. So... ?

It's why it's so important for CB to be charged and this case goes to trial. Apart from anything else, it will open up the gates for proper and meaningful discussion that only a charge and trial can give the green light to.

Why do you think so many professionals and experts disagree with your assessment and are convinced that it was an abduction?

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Why do you think so many professionals and experts disagree with your assessment and are convinced that it was an abduction?

It’s their opinion. I cannot be based on evidence that there was an abduction because there isn’t any.

Besides, the opposite outcome is also true. Some professionals and experts (whatever that means) are convinced no abduction took place. Based on the evidence, or lack thereof, this is a better informed opinion but that’s what it is.

Would you answer why, in the face of zero evidence and the assessment of experts and professionals that no abduction took place, that you think one did? If indeed that is your opinion.

The questions are pretty pointless IMO.

 

[Consider Dudley]

It’s their opinion. I cannot be based on evidence that there was an abduction because there isn’t any.

Besides, the opposite outcome is also true. Some professionals and experts (whatever that means) are convinced no abduction took place. Based on the evidence, or lack thereof, this is a better informed opinion but that’s what it is.

Would you answer why, in the face of zero evidence and the assessment of experts and professionals that no abduction took place, that you think one did? If indeed that is your opinion.

The questions are pretty pointless IMO.

IMO this whole discussion is pretty pointless but still people keep on contributing their opinions so while they do I will occasionally volunteer mine. Obviously there is massive disagreement about what constitutes evidence of abduction and it’s impossible to answer your question without going off on a tangent that would be deemed both off topic and touch on areas which this forum considers out of bounds. Clearly however such evidence exists otherwise I doubt two long running and on going police investigations would have wasted all that time and money without it. To say there is zero evidence of abduction is merely a hobbyist’s (not completely informed) opinion, and should not be stated as fact (which it sometimes is on this thread) - in my opinion.

 

[RichardKimble]

It’s their opinion. I cannot be based on evidence that there was an abduction because there isn’t any.

Besides, the opposite outcome is also true. Some professionals and experts (whatever that means) are convinced no abduction took place. Based on the evidence, or lack thereof, this is a better informed opinion but that’s what it is.

Would you answer why, in the face of zero evidence and the assessment of experts and professionals that no abduction took place, that you think one did? If indeed that is your opinion.

The questions are pretty pointless IMO.

MM is missing, as yet there are unexplained events surrounding that and including the manner of exit from 5a. Reports of an open window are not supported by crime scene photos, imo there is nothing that indicates or supports any theory of manner of exit.
CB either entered 5a or he didnt, there's little or even non existent evidence that he did, imo again.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

MM is missing, as yet there are unexplained events surrounding that and including the manner of exit from 5a. Reports of an open window are not supported by crime scene photos, imo there is nothing that indicates or supports any theory of manner of exit.
CB either entered 5a or he didnt, there's little or even non existent evidence that he did, imo again.

I agree. I’ve read reports and the case files from the original investigation and there is nothing to suggest anyone entered 5A and abducted MM.

The very first GNR officers who arrived at the scene couldn’t comprehend what they were being told. They didn’t see anything in 5A to suggest anything untoward had occurred.

Despite years of investigation nothing has changed, still nothing to prove CB or anyone else entered 5A.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

All IMO: the door was possibly left unlocked so that members of the dinner party could check on the children. That's how the abductor entered and left the apartment. MM was lifted up and carried out, and there wouldn't have been anything for the responding officers to "see." It makes the most sense of any scenario.

 

[Consider Dudley]

Then there is the evidence provided in the form of a verbal admittance of involvement to a third party by the main suspect. Again - evidence. You can choose to disregard it on the basis that you choose to disbelieve the witness, but it is still evidence, like it or not.

 

[Mex]

MM is missing, as yet there are unexplained events surrounding that and including the manner of exit from 5a. Reports of an open window are not supported by crime scene photos, imo there is nothing that indicates or supports any theory of manner of exit.
CB either entered 5a or he didnt, there's little or even non existent evidence that he did, imo again.

I was surprised to see the old “absence of evidence” conundrum being used earlier in the debate. And never really in connection with CB who has been an unknown quantity for so long and certainly not in 2007.

But when one thinks about it if it is applicable to anything it certainly is more so in concern to CB than it is to anything concerning the closed mindset which allowed him to be overlooked for ten years while the investigation into MM’s case was in progress.

<modsnip: off topic>

But just as the DM evidence was handled with the utmost discretion throughout to the extend that no-one really knew about her let alone CB, the evidence in MM's case also exists.
Although in the full glare of publicity and frustration that seems obligatory for the followers of the circus.

My opinion