Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #39

[Denis R Tandib]

Then there is the evidence provided in the form of a verbal admittance of involvement to a third party by the main suspect. Again - evidence. You can choose to disregard it on the basis that you choose to disbelieve the witness, but it is still evidence, like it or not.

Has CB confessed to abducting MM from 5A? I haven’t read that anywhere.

 

[Consider Dudley]

Has CB confessed to abducting MM from 5A? I haven’t read that anywhere.

Did I say he had? I said he had confessed to being involved in her disappearance. If you think that could have been achieved without his involvement in an abduction first then that's your opinion to which you are obviously entitled.

 

[Davieson]

All IMO: the door was possibly left unlocked so that members of the dinner party could check on the children. That's how the abductor entered and left the apartment. MM was lifted up and carried out, and there wouldn't have been anything for the responding officers to "see." It makes the most sense of any scenario.

Its one possibility. Difficult to prove that's what happened though.

 

[Consider Dudley]

All IMO: the door was possibly left unlocked so that members of the dinner party could check on the children. That's how the abductor entered and left the apartment. MM was lifted up and carried out, and there wouldn't have been anything for the responding officers to "see." It makes the most sense of any scenario.

I'm quite certain that if a wad of cash and a Rolex watch had been stolen from Apartment 5A no one on earth would have doubted the possibility of a thief entering the unlocked apartment, stealing the items and exiting unseen. But somehow, because what was taken was a small, likely sleeping child this has apparently become a near impossibility.

 

[Davieson]

I'm quite certain that if a wad of cash and a Rolex watch had been stolen from Apartment 5A no one on earth would have doubted the possibility of a thief entering the unlocked apartment, stealing the items and exiting unseen. But somehow, because what was taken was a small, likely sleeping child this has apparently become a near impossibility.

Without evidence, it is a near impossibility to prove, not that its an near impossible event in itself.

 

[Consider Dudley]

Without evidence, it is a near impossibility to prove, not that its an near impossible event in itself.

I'm glad you agree that it's perfectly possible that someone entered the apartment and took away Madeleine. As with many burglaries especially of an unlocked apartment there is seldom any useful incriminating evidence left at the scene of the crime, however the logical explanation for when valuable goods go missing from an unlocked apartment is that someone did indeed enter illegally and remove them. It may of course not be the right explanation as others are possible, but generally it is the most likely, if not usually very easy to prove beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[Davieson]

I'm glad you agree that it's perfectly possible that someone entered the apartment and took away Madeleine. As with many burglaries especially of an unlocked apartment there is seldom any useful incriminating evidence left at the scene of the crime, however the logical explanation for when valuable goods go missing from an unlocked apartment is that someone did indeed enter illegally and remove them. It may of course not be the right explanation as others are possible, but generally it is the most likely, if not usually very easy to prove beyond reasonable doubt.

There's no evidence of a burglary so maybe that didn't happen either.
In fact the whole thing could have been pre-arranged for all any of us know.

 

[Consider Dudley]

There's no evidence of a burglary so maybe that didn't happen either.
In fact the whole thing could have been pre-arranged for all any of us know.

My point is burglaries often happen without there being any evidence beyond the fact that valuables have gone missing, even more so when the premises has been left unlocked and there is no need to physically break in. In such circumstances often the only evidence of such an occurrence is the fact that items that were once there are now absent. So the absence of items (or in this case a child) can be taken as evidence of an illegal entry and abduction. It doesn't prove one occurred but it supports the theory - that's what evidence does - supports a belief or supposition. As for your second sentence, yes it could have been pre-arranged, though there is literally no evidence to support such a contention.

 

[misty48]

It doesn’t meet the conditions I specified - not nearly.

1. He was not convicted of the 1982 murder of his wife. This would be a no body case (albeit more than 40 years ago) but no conviction was obtained.

2. He was convicted of the 2000 murder of Sandra Bernan but there was a body and forensics in this case.

In the MM case, there is no body and no forensics. How can the prosecution even prove death?

Retrial opens in case of 'fed-to-dogs' farmer whose body was found intact No body, no forensics yet successful prosecution.

Maybe this is why the Germans need to make sure they get the MM case absolutely right.

 

[Consider Dudley]

Retrial opens in case of 'fed-to-dogs' farmer whose body was found intact No body, no forensics yet successful prosecution.

Maybe this is why the Germans need to make sure they get the MM case absolutely right.

That reminds me - you could add Joana Cipriano to the list - no body, no forensics yet successful prosecution.

 

[mrjitty]

Retrial opens in case of 'fed-to-dogs' farmer whose body was found intact No body, no forensics yet successful prosecution.

Maybe this is why the Germans need to make sure they get the MM case absolutely right.

Ouch!

That is really not a good look.

 

[Davieson]

Retrial opens in case of 'fed-to-dogs' farmer whose body was found intact No body, no forensics yet successful prosecution.

Maybe this is why the Germans need to make sure they get the MM case absolutely right.

Interesting last line of the quoted article -"Whatever details didn't fit were accordingly bent into shape."

I wonder how often that happens by law enforcement agencies convinced that they 'know' what happened.

 

[onemoremiletogo]

That reminds me - you could add Joana Cipriano to the list - no body, no forensics yet successful prosecution.

Successfully?! Well, there was a trial, a sentence...Don't want to circling on this again, and not for this thread, but IMO (and many others) so dubious that was, with common denominators...

 

[Consider Dudley]

Successfully?! Well, there was a trial, a sentence...Don't want to circling on this again, and not for this thread, but IMO (and many others) so dubious that was, with common denominators...

Successful as in the police secured the conviction they set out to get from day one.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I'm quite certain that if a wad of cash and a Rolex watch had been stolen from Apartment 5A no one on earth would have doubted the possibility of a thief entering the unlocked apartment, stealing the items and exiting unseen. But somehow, because what was taken was a small, likely sleeping child this has apparently become a near impossibility.

The watch and cash are easily concealed and disposed of. A person stealing them is just a person leaving an apartment. A stranger stealing a sleeping child, negotiating doors and windows with the child, and not being seen by the child's parents and friends is a more difficult proposition and far more likely to leave evidence. This is especially so when the stranger is in the child's room, opening windows and perhaps exiting via a window. All the while, people who know the child regularly check on her and her siblings. It's just not the same proposition.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Retrial opens in case of 'fed-to-dogs' farmer whose body was found intact No body, no forensics yet successful prosecution.

Maybe this is why the Germans need to make sure they get the MM case absolutely right.

What a great example of poor German investigative work and the potential for injustice when crimes are taken to trial without a body or forensics. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

That reminds me - you could add Joana Cipriano to the list - no body, no forensics yet successful prosecution.

You don't consider human blood in the freezer she was allegedly stored or human remains in the pig pen forensic evidence.

I don't know if this may have been a poorly conducted false investigation, but the conviction was partly obtained due to forensic evidence.

 

[Consider Dudley]

The watch and cash are easily concealed and disposed of. A person stealing them is just a person leaving an apartment. A stranger stealing a sleeping child, negotiating doors and windows with the child, and not being seen by the child's parents and friends is a more difficult proposition and far more likely to leave evidence. This is especially so when the stranger is in the child's room, opening windows and perhaps exiting via a window. All the while, people who know the child regularly check on her and her siblings. It's just not the same proposition.

It’s not identical no, but the principle is the same. A burglar still has to enter rooms, search for valuables, leave without being caught. For all we know evidence was left by the intruder but was either destroyed or missed. A child can be removed in a couple of minutes or less, taken away by vehicle and buried or hidden in open countryside never to be seen again. It really isn’t as dissimilar as you are painting it imo.

 

[Consider Dudley]

You don't consider human blood in the freezer she was allegedly stored or human remains in the pig pen forensic evidence.

I don't know if this may have been a poorly conducted false investigation, but the conviction was partly obtained due to forensic evidence.

There was no forensic evidence of the death of Joana found in the fridge or the pig pen, the police didn’t even bother testing the blood as I understand it! What human remains were found in the pig pen?

 

[Denis R Tandib]

There was no forensic evidence of the death of Joana found in the fridge or the pig pen, the police didn’t even bother testing the blood as I understand it! What human remains were found in the pig pen?

"Although police did find traces of human blood in the refrigerator where Joana’s uncle allegedly stored her body, as well as human remains in the pigpen where she was allegedly finally disposed of, none of this forensic evidence was ever conclusively linked to the 8-year-old's death, and a body was never recovered."

How Is The Disappearance Of Joana Cipriano Connected To Madeleine McCann? | Oxygen Official Site

Joana Cipriano was an 8-year-old girl with a playful smile and a tomboy haircut. One summer afternoon in 2004, she left her home in the small Portuguese village of Figueira to go to the store. She was never seen again.

www.oxygen.com