Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #39

[Consider Dudley]

"Although police did find traces of human blood in the refrigerator where Joana’s uncle allegedly stored her body, as well as human remains in the pigpen where she was allegedly finally disposed of, none of this forensic evidence was ever conclusively linked to the 8-year-old's death, and a body was never recovered."

How Is The Disappearance Of Joana Cipriano Connected To Madeleine McCann? | Oxygen Official Site

Joana Cipriano was an 8-year-old girl with a playful smile and a tomboy haircut. One summer afternoon in 2004, she left her home in the small Portuguese village of Figueira to go to the store. She was never seen again.

www.oxygen.com

it’s all well and good finding blood and human remains but then you need to actually match them to the victim. They never were. If you’re really interested in this case I suggest you look up the reddit thread entitled “Where Is Joana Cipriano “ - the court threw out the “fed to pigs“ theory anyway.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

it’s all well and good finding blood and human remains but then you need to actually match them to the victim. They never were. If you’re really interested in this case I suggest you look up the reddit thread entitled “Where Is Joana Cipriano “ - the court threw out the “fed to pigs“ theory anyway.

I have no interest in it. Despite your claim to the contrary, I was stating that the case benefitted from forensic evidence.

 

[Consider Dudley]

I have no interest in it. Despite your claim to the contrary, I was stating that the case benefitted from forensic evidence.

it really didn’t and unless you read up about it you will continue to labour under this misapprehension. There was no forensic evidence of Joana’s death. None. Even the quote you posted confirms this!

 

[mrjitty]

it really didn’t and unless you read up about it you will continue to labour under this misapprehension. There was no forensic evidence of Joana’s death. None.

To me all the cited cases illustrate how important it is that murder accusations are made by way of charge, where evidence can be tested in court. Injustices do happen!

 

[Denis R Tandib]

it really didn’t and unless you read up about it you will continue to labour under this misapprehension. There was no forensic evidence of Joana’s death. None. Even the quote you posted confirms this!

I’ll accept the word of the cited article vs that of an Internet hobbyist.

 

[Mex]

The watch and cash are easily concealed and disposed of. A person stealing them is just a person leaving an apartment. A stranger stealing a sleeping child, negotiating doors and windows with the child, and not being seen by the child's parents and friends is a more difficult proposition and far more likely to leave evidence. This is especially so when the stranger is in the child's room, opening windows and perhaps exiting via a window. All the while, people who know the child regularly check on her and her siblings. It's just not the same proposition.

In 2005 CB journeyed from A to B carrying his rape kit. There are no witnesses to this.

He then uninvited and illegally entered a villa and proceeded to torture and rape the occupant over a prolonged period.

The only witness to this outrage was the raped and tortured survivor.

There were no witnesses to this weirdly dressed man's entry carrying his rape kit. There were no witnesses to his exit carrying his rape kit and his victim's computer.

Had he chosen to take his victim with him there would have been no evidence as to what CB had done in the villa that night short of a window covering. And who would have thought anything odd about a window being covered or attach much significance to it anyway?

CB escaped the consequences of his actions in DM's villa until his name was given to the German police in 2017. Ten years after MM was kidnapped from a scene with no apparent evidence and twelve years after DM was assaulted within her own home with no apparent evidence of an intruder.

But although MM was not around to tell her story there is absolutely no mystery about what was going on in the Algarve at that time.
The only mystery about it is why the Portuguese police didn't choose the home invasions and assaults as an obvious line of inquiry which turned out to be so much worse than initially thought when investigated by SY.

Snip
Police investigating the disappearance of MM n from a Portuguese holiday resort nearly seven years ago say a lone intruder sexually assaulted five girls aged between seven and 10 in the Algarve between 2004 and 2006.

The four incidents – one involving two girls – were among 12 over six years up to 2010 being examined by officers in which a man entered holiday accommodation, mainly villas occupied by British families.

Madeleine McCann police seek intruder who attacked girls at holiday homes

Detectives investigating girl's disappearance look for dark-haired man who sexually abused five girls in Algarve

www.theguardian.com

 

[Consider Dudley]

it really didn’t and unless you read up about it you will continue to labour under this misapprehension. There was no forensic evidence of Joana’s death. None.

I’ll accept the word of the cited article vs that of an Internet hobbyist.

As both this internet hobbyist and the article are saying the same thing ie: there was no forensic evidence that linked to Joana's death I'm quite happy to leave it there.

 

[Consider Dudley]

To me all the cited cases illustrate how important it is that murder accusations are made by way of charge, where evidence can be tested in court. Injustices do happen!

Couldn't agree more! That said, miscarriages of justice usually only happen AFTER evidence has been tested in court.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

In 2005 CB journeyed from A to B carrying his rape kit. There are no witnesses to this.

He then uninvited and illegally entered a villa and proceeded to torture and rape the occupant over a prolonged period.

The only witness to this outrage was the raped and tortured survivor.

There were no witnesses to this weirdly dressed man's entry carrying his rape kit. There were no witnesses to his exit carrying his rape kit and his victim's computer.

Had he chosen to take his victim with him there would have been no evidence as to what CB had done in the villa that night short of a window covering. And who would have thought anything odd about a window being covered or attach much significance to it anyway?

CB escaped the consequences of his actions in DM's villa until his name was given to the German police in 2017. Ten years after MM was kidnapped from a scene with no apparent evidence and twelve years after DM was assaulted within her own home with no apparent evidence of an intruder.

But although MM was not around to tell her story there is absolutely no mystery about what was going on in the Algarve at that time.
The only mystery about it is why the Portuguese police didn't choose the home invasions and assaults as an obvious line of inquiry which turned out to be so much worse than initially thought when investigated by SY.

Snip
Police investigating the disappearance of MM n from a Portuguese holiday resort nearly seven years ago say a lone intruder sexually assaulted five girls aged between seven and 10 in the Algarve between 2004 and 2006.

The four incidents – one involving two girls – were among 12 over six years up to 2010 being examined by officers in which a man entered holiday accommodation, mainly villas occupied by British families.

Madeleine McCann police seek intruder who attacked girls at holiday homes

Detectives investigating girl's disappearance look for dark-haired man who sexually abused five girls in Algarve

www.theguardian.com

There was physical evidence in the DM case - proof that a crime had been committed. The perpetrator identified, charged and convicted.

 

[Mex]

There was physical evidence in the DM case - proof that a crime had been committed. The perpetrator identified, charged and convicted.

Absolutely correct; there is photographic evidence of DM's bruised and battered body and there is her witness account of how she came by her injuries and exactly the manner in which they were inflicted.

DM endured a brutal attack. But at least she was spared to be a witness against her attacker and tell her own story.

The police had to drop DM's case because there was no evidence pointing towards a perpetrator.

That evidence chain wasn't joined up until CB became a person of interest to the BKA who were investigating another case entirely - that of MM.

DM was present and was able to tell her story but even that was not sufficient for the whole story to be told. Not even forensic evidence proved anything until it was able to be matched.

One wonders if the hairs collected by Portuguese investigators from apartment 5 are still in existence.

Snip
09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2385
- Various hairs were collected from on top of the bed in the bedroom, they were placed in a paper envelope, according to the instructions of the Scientific Police Laboratory's Biology Area and were referenced as vestige no. 4.
__________________________________
09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2422
FIRST INML REPORT 9 JULY 2007

P.J. POLICE FILES: PORTUGUESE FORENSIC INSTITUTE TESTS

 

[Davieson]

Absolutely correct; there is photographic evidence of DM's bruised and battered body and there is her witness account of how she came by her injuries and exactly the manner in which they were inflicted.

DM endured a brutal attack. But at least she was spared to be a witness against her attacker and tell her own story.

The police had to drop DM's case because there was no evidence pointing towards a perpetrator.

That evidence chain wasn't joined up until CB became a person of interest to the BKA who were investigating another case entirely - that of MM.

DM was present and was able to tell her story but even that was not sufficient for the whole story to be told. Not even forensic evidence proved anything until it was able to be matched.

One wonders if the hairs collected by Portuguese investigators from apartment 5 are still in existence.

Snip
09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2385
- Various hairs were collected from on top of the bed in the bedroom, they were placed in a paper envelope, according to the instructions of the Scientific Police Laboratory's Biology Area and were referenced as vestige no. 4.
__________________________________
09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2422
FIRST INML REPORT 9 JULY 2007

P.J. POLICE FILES: PORTUGUESE FORENSIC INSTITUTE TESTS

Were they among the material that went off to UK forensic lab for analysis ?
I think some of that was later destroyed.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Absolutely correct; there is photographic evidence of DM's bruised and battered body and there is her witness account of how she came by her injuries and exactly the manner in which they were inflicted.

DM endured a brutal attack. But at least she was spared to be a witness against her attacker and tell her own story.

The police had to drop DM's case because there was no evidence pointing towards a perpetrator.

That evidence chain wasn't joined up until CB became a person of interest to the BKA who were investigating another case entirely - that of MM.

DM was present and was able to tell her story but even that was not sufficient for the whole story to be told. Not even forensic evidence proved anything until it was able to be matched.

One wonders if the hairs collected by Portuguese investigators from apartment 5 are still in existence.

Snip
09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2385
- Various hairs were collected from on top of the bed in the bedroom, they were placed in a paper envelope, according to the instructions of the Scientific Police Laboratory's Biology Area and were referenced as vestige no. 4.
__________________________________
09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2422
FIRST INML REPORT 9 JULY 2007

P.J. POLICE FILES: PORTUGUESE FORENSIC INSTITUTE TESTS

IMO, we should put the hairs in the same category as the dogs and not discuss them again. Everyone who has followed the thread knows that the only DNA extracted from hairs in 5A belonged Gerry McCann.

 

[Mex]

Were they among the material that went off to UK forensic lab for analysis ?
I think some of that was later destroyed.

Absolutely correct. There is a requirement for some samples to be destroyed after testing. I don't know if the purpose is storage or hygiene. There is a list from FSS giving details.

But the National Institute in Portugal under Corte Real carried out the initial work on samples collected on 4th May from apartment 5.
However even if CB's hair had been found at the time I doubt if it would signify proof he had been on the premises 3rd May.
He worked on occasion for the Ocean Cub.

All things considered the German investigators really do have their work cut out for them when it comes to putting evidence together strong enough to indict in the MM case.

 

[Mex]

IMO, we should put the hairs in the same category as the dogs and not discuss them again. Everyone who has followed the thread knows that the only DNA extracted from hairs in 5A belonged Gerry McCann.

Not accurate.
But irrelevant anyway, he had been living there.

 

[Anxala]

Retrial opens in case of 'fed-to-dogs' farmer whose body was found intact No body, no forensics yet successful prosecution.

Maybe this is why the Germans need to make sure they get the MM case absolutely right.

Maybe so. But announcing to the world at large that CB abducted and murdered MM doesn't exactly reek of caution or consideration of an outcome that might fail to deliver on the critical evidence front. As seems to be the case here.

Not sure which is worse, a false accusation that results in a conviction of innocent people, as in the above case, or a very public accusation of guilt based on evidence that may never be tested in a court but will still cast a long and ambiguous shadow over the accused.

 

[Consider Dudley]

Maybe so. But announcing to the world at large that CB abducted and murdered MM doesn't exactly reek of caution or consideration of an outcome that might fail to deliver on the critical evidence front. As seems to be the case.

They didn’t actually do that though. HCW expressed the belief based on years of investigation, he did not state guilt as an incontrovertible fact, and indeed affirmed the need for more evidence before CB could be brought to trial.

 

[Anxala]

There's no evidence of a burglary so maybe that didn't happen either.
In fact the whole thing could have been pre-arranged for all any of us know.

^ Not something I've ever considered but, thinking about it, and in the absence of any clear facts about that day, it would certainly open up new avenues...

 

[Mex]

Maybe so. But announcing to the world at large that CB abducted and murdered MM doesn't exactly reek of caution or consideration of an outcome that might fail to deliver on the critical evidence front. As seems to be the case here.

Not sure which is worse, a false accusation that results in a conviction of innocent people, as in the above case, or a very public accusation of guilt based on evidence that may never be tested in a court but will still cast a long and ambiguous shadow over the accused.

I'm not sure how one would word information that the German state has a suspect in custody who is suspected of abducting a child and murdering her, short of imposing a complete news embargo.

 

[Davieson]

I'm not sure how one would word information that the German state has a suspect in custody who is suspected of abducting a child and murdering her, short of imposing a complete news embargo.

Depends what message you want to impart, but it would have been quite easy to simply say that they have a suspect in custody in connection with the disappearance of MM.

IMO

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Not accurate.
But irrelevant anyway, he had been living there.

Who else’s hair was identified by DNA?