Malaysia airlines 370 with 239 people on board, 8 March 2014 #25
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ilovepierre
One day, the lost will be found
ilovepierre
One day, the lost will be found
That idea has now popped into my head now as well!
" Malaysia Airlines said on its Twitter feed that it "has lost contact of MH17 from Amsterdam. The last known position was over Ukrainian airspace." The plane's destination was Kuala Lumpur.
It was the second time that a Malaysia Airlines plane was lost in less than six months. Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 disappeared in March while en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing. It has not been found, but the search has been concentrated in the Indian Ocean far west of Australia.
Malaysian Defence Minister Hishamuddin Hussein said on Twitter there's no confirmation that Thursday's plane was shot down. He said he has instructed the country's military to check and get confirmation."
Read more: http://www.cp24.com/news/malaysian-...hot-down-over-ukraine-1.1918229#ixzz37kKRWYAW
Zwiebel's thread for plane crash in Ukraine..
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-295-aboard-7-17-2014&p=10760187#post10760187
It was the second time that a Malaysia Airlines plane was lost in less than six months. Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 disappeared in March while en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing. It has not been found, but the search has been concentrated in the Indian Ocean far west of Australia.
Malaysian Defence Minister Hishamuddin Hussein said on Twitter there's no confirmation that Thursday's plane was shot down. He said he has instructed the country's military to check and get confirmation."
Read more: http://www.cp24.com/news/malaysian-...hot-down-over-ukraine-1.1918229#ixzz37kKRWYAW
Zwiebel's thread for plane crash in Ukraine..
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-295-aboard-7-17-2014&p=10760187#post10760187
Momoffourboys
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gregjrichards
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I know this new tragedy is devastating R.I.P to everyone on board they and their families are in my prayers. I cannot believe we still don't have any idea where mh370 ended up. Thank you to everyone for keeping the threads going.
P.s as I mentioned in the other thread about the new tragedy I have not been here due to ill health. My 9th operation did not work. I have my 10th operation on Monday hopefully it will be a success. I might need an 11th operation in October and that should be me done. I will keep you posted how I am doing. Thank you to everyone for your kindness, thoughts and prayers they are much appreciated.
Momoffourboys
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Prayers for a successful and final surgery! GJR!
Sending you lots of hugs.
Sending you lots of hugs.
gngr~snap
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kimi_SFC
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Sending only the best thoughts and best wishes your way!
raying:Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mr. Noatak
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My opinions only, no facts here:
I do not believe that there is any conspiratorial link between the downing of MH-17 and the disappearance of MH-370. But the reported downing of MH-17 with a BUK surface-to-air missile does show one way that a plane and all aboard can be suddenly silenced. I want to talk about what can be learned from the downing of MH-17, that could apply to various theories about MH-370.
First, the linear distance of ground debris from MH-17 may be as much as nine miles. Does this mean that all missile strikes cause the targeted plane to disintegrate in mid-air? No. KAL-007 was shot down by the Russians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007). Two air-to-air missiles were fired and the plane was damaged. Yet the plane did not blow up or burst into flame. Interestingly, damage to a cable that controlled the elevators caused KAL-007 to climb for almost two minutes, well above its original cruising altitude of 35,000 feet. All-in-all the plane remained in the air for at least a few minutes before crashing into the ocean, probably nearly whole. Equally interesting, most or all of the 213 pieces of debris initially found at sea or washed up consisted of SHOES. Later on, items that washed up in Japan, included 13 human fragments, dentures, newspapers, seats, books, paper cups, a camera case, a seat-belt sign, oxygen mask, handbag, limited clothing, a couple of identity cards, and of course- more shoes. What bothered me about the initial search in the Gulf of Thailand for MH-370 was that the various searchers found debris but said it was not related to the missing plane. Did they find shoes? Did they know what was relevant? Searches such as this occur infrequently, and memories from the lessons of past searches fade.
Secondly, it is claimed that MH-17 was not burning after it was hit by the missile. Yes, of course. It was hit at cruising altitude. There is not enough pressurized oxygen at 35,000 feet to even light a match outside the plane. Frankly, you will find that open-air fires do very poorly at 35,000 feet. Counter-intuitively, this is not because of a lower percentage of oxygen in the atmosphere, but because of a lower partial-pressure of oxygen. This is what has always bugged me about the TWA-800 disaster. The vapors in the empty center fuel tank of TWA-800 supposedly exploded violently and instantly at 13,760 feet (from a single spark). Let me tell you about a spark. In the 1980's we were attempting to refuel a nearly-empty fuel tank on an aircraft (with Jet-B) at less than 1000 feet of ground elevation. The electric fuel pump shorted out immediately and shot a spray of sparks into the empty fuel tank. So we were all blown up, right? Wrong. What happened, is the ignited vapors in the fuel tank did NOT HAVE ENOUGH oxygen (even below 1000 feet of elevation) to blow up. The ignited vapors created a rhythmic "woofing" sound, with each "woof" louder and more alarming than the previous one, as the empty tank sucked in more outside oxygen. Finally, the mechanic shoved a rag into the open fuel tank outlet and- problem solved! But with TWA-800, we have to accept that at more than 13 times that altitude (far lower outside partial pressure of oxygen) AND with the fuel cap on (not taken off as in our 1980's refueling situation to allow free atmospheric ingress), the TWA-800 tank blew up like a box of Trimtex dynamite on Looney Tunes. But this is not to say that a missile will not carry the oxygen with it to create the explosive reaction, only that the resulting fire around and about the plane may be pretty pitiful at 35,000 feet. So, if the oil rig worker in the Gulf of Thailand actually saw a 'fire' from a plane at cruising altitude, it would likely be from the missile itself, and not a burning plane. And I am not saying that this is what he saw!
Lastly, as some of you may have learned from today's press releases, modern ground-to-air missiles travel FAST. Way over 2000 miles per hour. If you blink, you could miss the event.
This post is not intended to promote theories that MH-370 was downed by an errant missile. This post is for informational purposes only.
Sleuth On!
I do not believe that there is any conspiratorial link between the downing of MH-17 and the disappearance of MH-370. But the reported downing of MH-17 with a BUK surface-to-air missile does show one way that a plane and all aboard can be suddenly silenced. I want to talk about what can be learned from the downing of MH-17, that could apply to various theories about MH-370.
First, the linear distance of ground debris from MH-17 may be as much as nine miles. Does this mean that all missile strikes cause the targeted plane to disintegrate in mid-air? No. KAL-007 was shot down by the Russians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007). Two air-to-air missiles were fired and the plane was damaged. Yet the plane did not blow up or burst into flame. Interestingly, damage to a cable that controlled the elevators caused KAL-007 to climb for almost two minutes, well above its original cruising altitude of 35,000 feet. All-in-all the plane remained in the air for at least a few minutes before crashing into the ocean, probably nearly whole. Equally interesting, most or all of the 213 pieces of debris initially found at sea or washed up consisted of SHOES. Later on, items that washed up in Japan, included 13 human fragments, dentures, newspapers, seats, books, paper cups, a camera case, a seat-belt sign, oxygen mask, handbag, limited clothing, a couple of identity cards, and of course- more shoes. What bothered me about the initial search in the Gulf of Thailand for MH-370 was that the various searchers found debris but said it was not related to the missing plane. Did they find shoes? Did they know what was relevant? Searches such as this occur infrequently, and memories from the lessons of past searches fade.
Secondly, it is claimed that MH-17 was not burning after it was hit by the missile. Yes, of course. It was hit at cruising altitude. There is not enough pressurized oxygen at 35,000 feet to even light a match outside the plane. Frankly, you will find that open-air fires do very poorly at 35,000 feet. Counter-intuitively, this is not because of a lower percentage of oxygen in the atmosphere, but because of a lower partial-pressure of oxygen. This is what has always bugged me about the TWA-800 disaster. The vapors in the empty center fuel tank of TWA-800 supposedly exploded violently and instantly at 13,760 feet (from a single spark). Let me tell you about a spark. In the 1980's we were attempting to refuel a nearly-empty fuel tank on an aircraft (with Jet-B) at less than 1000 feet of ground elevation. The electric fuel pump shorted out immediately and shot a spray of sparks into the empty fuel tank. So we were all blown up, right? Wrong. What happened, is the ignited vapors in the fuel tank did NOT HAVE ENOUGH oxygen (even below 1000 feet of elevation) to blow up. The ignited vapors created a rhythmic "woofing" sound, with each "woof" louder and more alarming than the previous one, as the empty tank sucked in more outside oxygen. Finally, the mechanic shoved a rag into the open fuel tank outlet and- problem solved! But with TWA-800, we have to accept that at more than 13 times that altitude (far lower outside partial pressure of oxygen) AND with the fuel cap on (not taken off as in our 1980's refueling situation to allow free atmospheric ingress), the TWA-800 tank blew up like a box of Trimtex dynamite on Looney Tunes. But this is not to say that a missile will not carry the oxygen with it to create the explosive reaction, only that the resulting fire around and about the plane may be pretty pitiful at 35,000 feet. So, if the oil rig worker in the Gulf of Thailand actually saw a 'fire' from a plane at cruising altitude, it would likely be from the missile itself, and not a burning plane. And I am not saying that this is what he saw!
Lastly, as some of you may have learned from today's press releases, modern ground-to-air missiles travel FAST. Way over 2000 miles per hour. If you blink, you could miss the event.
This post is not intended to promote theories that MH-370 was downed by an errant missile. This post is for informational purposes only.
Sleuth On!
Hope this will help avoid confusion in the MH370 timeline ...
The male oil rigger saw a short fire in the South China Sea
near Vietnam (which is on the EAST side of Malaysia) ...
MH370 would have arrived at that location around 2am MYT.
The female sailor saw an orange glow near Thailand
(which is on the WEST side of Malaysia) ...
& (per radar) would have had to be AFTER 2:30am MYT.
ETA: I am guessing that the oil rig worker was about 400 miles away from Thailand.
LambChop
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Debris from space is falling all the time. So a fire in the sky that was viewed at two different locations hundreds of miles apart very well could and more than likely was space junk reentering the earth's atmosphere.
http://time.com/2976883/space-debris-falling/
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sc...ebris-from-russian-rocket-20140711-zt3pu.html
http://time.com/2976883/space-debris-falling/
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sc...ebris-from-russian-rocket-20140711-zt3pu.html
Roselvr
Ask me how to get your loved one in NamUs
plus, where is the wreckage? it was reported that if a jet was shot down, it would leave a long (and wide) debris field.
(not sure if you mean shot down intentionally or not, but a poster --sorry, recall who-- researched all military activities in the area the plane was flying. there was nothing scheduled at the time or location/flight path iirc. if i can locate the post, i'll link it later)
edit to add link to mr. noatak's very informative post: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...39-people-on-board-24&p=10570070#post10570070
btw, i too am from SWO... somewhat displaced at the moment, but cannot wait to get back home
Very eerie how you posted this; then the plane was shot down. </3
redheadedgal
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i know, eh? when i heard the news, i thought "didn't i just mention this on WS?"
so so sad.
SouthAussie
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"Malaysia Airlines released MH17’s cargo manifest within hours of the plane going down, unlike MH370's manifest, which took weeks.
The company also released details of MH17’s maintenance record ........ "
http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-tr...at-mistakes-20140719-zuqu1.html#ixzz37sHxZO4k
The company also released details of MH17’s maintenance record ........ "
http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-tr...at-mistakes-20140719-zuqu1.html#ixzz37sHxZO4k
newone
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no kidding!!! amazing how much more information we had ''almost instantly''
Mr. Noatak
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My opinions only, no facts here:
Regarding the downing of MH-17, I gather that what the U.S. and other affected countries want to see is a coordinated investigation with central authority. These countries will want all debris to be mapped and cataloged and taken to a central storage location. ALL crash-area items will need to be collected and stored for future study. Even paper cups and shoes.
Right after MH-370 disappeared, 40 ships from Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand, Australia, Singapore, Indonesia, China, and the United States were deployed to the area (South China Sea/Gulf of Thailand). See http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...ver-south-china-sea-with-239-people-on-board/, for example. At least two "oil" slicks were spotted (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...ying-239-people-from-kuala-lumpur-to-beijing/).
OK, we had at least eight countries spotting and checking out flotsam in the region where MH-370 initially disappeared. What were the uniform guiding protcols for this search effort? Where is the central location where any observed and collected debris was taken for storage and future examination? At least one of the "oil" slicks was sampled and sent to a lab. The "slick" was determined not to be jet fuel. In case this "slick" turns out to be hydraulic oil, grease, residue from burning lithium batteries or mangosteen pigments, where are duplicate samples of this "oil" slick material being stored for future analysis?
Look, we all know that a crash site in the Gulf of Thailand/South China Sea is low on the authorities' possibility list. And maybe it should be. But will we ever know now if this boat found a shoe, and that ship found a water bottle, and this watercraft found a travel magazine, etc.? These are items that by themselves are meaningless, but collectively could tell a story. Without advance protocols to all involved parties, how does this sailor or that fisherman or that boatswain's mate know what the heck they are looking for? Without detailed protocols in advance of the search, I suspect that many searchers were looking only for the vertical stabilizer, large fuselage fragments, life rafts, and similarly-obvious evidence.
Sleuth On!
Regarding the downing of MH-17, I gather that what the U.S. and other affected countries want to see is a coordinated investigation with central authority. These countries will want all debris to be mapped and cataloged and taken to a central storage location. ALL crash-area items will need to be collected and stored for future study. Even paper cups and shoes.
Right after MH-370 disappeared, 40 ships from Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand, Australia, Singapore, Indonesia, China, and the United States were deployed to the area (South China Sea/Gulf of Thailand). See http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...ver-south-china-sea-with-239-people-on-board/, for example. At least two "oil" slicks were spotted (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...ying-239-people-from-kuala-lumpur-to-beijing/).
OK, we had at least eight countries spotting and checking out flotsam in the region where MH-370 initially disappeared. What were the uniform guiding protcols for this search effort? Where is the central location where any observed and collected debris was taken for storage and future examination? At least one of the "oil" slicks was sampled and sent to a lab. The "slick" was determined not to be jet fuel. In case this "slick" turns out to be hydraulic oil, grease, residue from burning lithium batteries or mangosteen pigments, where are duplicate samples of this "oil" slick material being stored for future analysis?
Look, we all know that a crash site in the Gulf of Thailand/South China Sea is low on the authorities' possibility list. And maybe it should be. But will we ever know now if this boat found a shoe, and that ship found a water bottle, and this watercraft found a travel magazine, etc.? These are items that by themselves are meaningless, but collectively could tell a story. Without advance protocols to all involved parties, how does this sailor or that fisherman or that boatswain's mate know what the heck they are looking for? Without detailed protocols in advance of the search, I suspect that many searchers were looking only for the vertical stabilizer, large fuselage fragments, life rafts, and similarly-obvious evidence.
Sleuth On!
Mr. Noatak
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My opinions only, no facts here:
The oil rig worker was probably too far east to have witnessed MH-370 at the location of transponder radar failure. IF he did see MH-370, there would have to be a LOT of misinformation in this case! But I still believe that this man saw something. We should keep his observation in the back of our minds.
It has been suggested that the oil rig worker saw a meteor. This is possible, I suppose. As an amateur astronomer, I have of course seen lots of meteors. If a meteor was traveling generally towards your earth-bound position, it might explain the "fixed" position of the reported burning object. There are problems. Most trains (the streak of visible light) from a meteor are only visible for a few seconds, BUT occasionally, trains are visible for minutes (http://www.amsmeteors.org/fireballs/faqf/). If the oil rig worker saw the burning object for as long as 10 to 15 seconds AND the burning object appeared "fixed" and not traveling in an arc, it represents a rare event in my judgment. A carbon-rich meteor falling towards his earth-bound position might be an explanation for the extended duration AND the seemingly fixed position of the light.
Since there could have been international war games in the region (I have a previous post about this), the oil rig worker could also have seen the far-away exhaust trail/plume of a missile during the brief period when the rear of a (turning) missile was pointed directly at his position.
Sleuth On!
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