Malaysia airlines plane may have crashed 239 people on board #1

[MsFacetious]

I would love to know when the last REAL contact was with ATC.
Obviously it wasn't 11 minutes after it dropped off of radar.
If it WAS, they would not be searching the area where it dropped off of radar.

The evidence and their actions go together while their words make no sense with evidence/actions. :waitasec:

Less than an hour ago:

UPDATE [11.30am]: After more than 30 hours, MAS says it is "fearing the worst" for MH370, and will be working with an American disaster recovery company to locate the missing aircraft.

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Azharuddin added that it had not received any report from the Vietnamese authorities on the 20km oil slick between Malaysia and Vietnam.

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The timeline seemed to suggest that the plane stayed in the air for two hours – long enough to fly not only across the Gulf of Thailand but also far north across Vietnam.

But Fredrik Lindahl, the chief executive of Flightradar24, an online aircraft tracking service, had said that the last radar contact had been at 1.19am, less than 40 minutes after the flight began.

The authorities said yesterday that the last conversation between the flight crew and air traffic control in Malaysia had been about 1.30am.

http://my.news.yahoo.com/mas-says-fearing-worst-mh370-working-us-disaster-022559325.html

 

[Leilei]

I wonder if the Ukraine passport had been reported stolen as well.

Not sure, but this is interesting, they were all purchased through the same place:

The tickets to the holders of the stolen Austrian and Italian passports were sold by China Southern Airlines, which has a code share agreement with Malaysia Airlines, according to China Southern’s account on Sina Weibo, the Chinese microblog platform. China Southern said it sold five other tickets to the flight: to the Dutch passenger, the Ukrainians, and one Malaysian and one Chinese passenger.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-flight.html

 

[mrsu]

With technology I just do not believe they have no idea where this plane is. Makes absolutely no sense to me. Obviously they should stay and search in the area of the oil slicks that were seen. Seems like it shouldn't take this long especially with sonar devices, etc.

 

[HMSHood]

Many questions.

Does Thailand get along with China? Does Thailand get along with Malaysia? Who 's responsible for the stabbings last week in China? Could it be related?
What's up with Russia and China and Ukraine? Is China just patting Russia on the back or are they supporting them via force or supplies?

Malaysia is a predominantly muslum as prev said by another poster, so I don't believe it's Al Queda (sp?) either.

The China stabbing was committed by Uyghurs.

China: Mass stabbing attack in Kunming shows depth of Uighur conflict
http://www.latimes.com/world/worldn...uighur-20140302,0,6191236.story#axzz2vJg3zIQB

Elizabeth Van Wie Davis, a professor at the Colorado School of Mines who has studied Uighur separatism, said the timing — just ahead of two high-profile political gatherings in Beijing this week — was not coincidental.

“Doing it right before the Beijing meetings brings their cause and concerns to the attention of the country, and the international community,” she said.

Rohan Gunaratna, a terrorism expert at Nanyang Technological University in Singapore, noted that there have been more than 200 incidents of violence in Xinjiang in the past 12 months, but most of those were on a small scale.

The attack happened the week Beijing had two major events. Uyghurs living in Western China in Xinjiang region.

China has had a tense relationship with Southeast Asia. Thailand generally has had good relations with Malaysia, but has soured recently.

Thailand 'Losing Control' of South as Malaysia Relations Sour
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/thailand-losing-control-south-malaysia-relations-sour

 

[MsFacetious]

This is where the "last contact at 1:30" is coming from it was NOT with ATC but with another pilot:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/09/malaysia-airlines-missing-plane-fears-worst

The Boeing 777 disappeared from radar screens just 40 minutes into its flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing in the early hours of Saturday morning. It was last detected over the seas between Malaysia and Vietnam.

------------------------------


The pilot of another flight told a Malaysian newspaper he had made brief contact with the plane via his emergency frequency, at the request of Vietnamese aviation authorities who had been unable to reach it as expected. Vietnam has said it believes the flight never entered its airspace.

The unnamed man said his Japan-bound plane was deep into Vietnamese airspace when officials asked him to relay to MH370 to establish its position, and that he succeeded at about 1.30am local time.

“The voice on the other side could have been either Captain Zaharie [Ahmad Shah, 53,] or Fariq [Abdul Hamid, 27], but I was sure it was the co-pilot.

“There were a lot of interference ... static ... but I heard mumbling from the other end.

“That was the last time we heard from them, as we lost the connection,” he told the New Straits Times.

He said he did not think any more of it at the time, as losing connections was common.

 

[HMSHood]

Not sure, but this is interesting, they were all purchased through the same place:

The tickets to the holders of the stolen Austrian and Italian passports were sold by China Southern Airlines, which has a code share agreement with Malaysia Airlines, according to China Southern’s account on Sina Weibo, the Chinese microblog platform. China Southern said it sold five other tickets to the flight: to the Dutch passenger, the Ukrainians, and one Malaysian and one Chinese passenger.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-flight.html

I posted an article about that, which was in Chinese. I wonder what kind of credit card they used and if they were stolen as well.

 

[Steely Dan]

As Donne said, "No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. "

I believe it was Socrates who called himself a citizen of the world. Too bad many don't see things that way.

 

[Leilei]

Derryn, thank you for all of that info, very interesting! I want to ask you if you ever flew out of the KL airport? How was security? I've seen comments on a pilot forum about them allowing passengers to bring bottled water through security, any idea on whether or not this is valid?

 

[popsicle]

"We managed to establish contact with MH370 just after 1.30am and asked them if they have transferred into Vietnamese airspace.
"The voice on the other side could have been either Captain Zaharie (Ahmad Shah, 53) or Fariq (Abdul Hamid, 27), but I was sure it was the co-pilot.
"There were a lot of interference... static... but I heard mumbling from the other end.
"That was the last time we heard from them, as we lost the connection," he was quoted as saying by the New Sunday Times.

http://my.news.yahoo.com/b777-pilot-contacted-mh370-vanished-says-radio-interference-041445964.html

 

[HMSHood]

This is where the "last contact at 1:30" is coming from it was NOT with ATC but with another pilot:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/09/malaysia-airlines-missing-plane-fears-worst

The Boeing 777 disappeared from radar screens just 40 minutes into its flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing in the early hours of Saturday morning. It was last detected over the seas between Malaysia and Vietnam.

------------------------------


The pilot of another flight told a Malaysian newspaper he had made brief contact with the plane via his emergency frequency, at the request of Vietnamese aviation authorities who had been unable to reach it as expected. Vietnam has said it believes the flight never entered its airspace.

The unnamed man said his Japan-bound plane was deep into Vietnamese airspace when officials asked him to relay to MH370 to establish its position, and that he succeeded at about 1.30am local time.

“The voice on the other side could have been either Captain Zaharie [Ahmad Shah, 53,] or Fariq [Abdul Hamid, 27], but I was sure it was the co-pilot.

“There were a lot of interference ... static ... but I heard mumbling from the other end.

“That was the last time we heard from them, as we lost the connection,” he told the New Straits Times.

He said he did not think any more of it at the time, as losing connections was common.

Interesting that another airplane had contact with Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 prior to the crash.

Here is a video of Malaysia Airline Flight 370 on radar.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnfXwyh-8KY"]Malaysian Airlines Flight MH 370 on Flight Radar Playback. - YouTube[/ame]

Around the end of the video, there are two airplanes west and east of Flight 370. I wonder if those pilots picked up any radio signals and possibly saw something.

 

[Trino]

I don't think this has been posted here yet; if so, I missed it.

The Austrian and Italian passport purchasers had consecutive numbers for this flight. (They were stolen passports.) The travel schedules of the Italian and Australian passengers have been posted on a Chinese forum.

According to Google Translate, the ticket numbers are:

Ticket number: 784 - 099 *******
Ticket number: 784 - 100 *******

Could be they were illegals trying to get out of the country, of course.

 

[kimi_SFC]

Ahhh websleuths... I knew there would be some discussion to be had here hahaha!

I haven't read through the entire thread... so I have no idea what kind of speculation, theory's and conspiracy's have been put forward as yet

I'm sure there are other pilots on here who can (or already have) added some of the technical scope and detail to fill others in - I would like to add my own thoughts on this - in the one forum where "armchair detective" is acceptable

My background:

I'm a former pilot in the Royal Australian Air Force. Aircraft types flown include everything from bug CT-4 trainers (Bug smashers) through to fast jet types such as the Hawk 127 and F-111G/C.

I recently (Jan/Feb) spent a month flying "Jumpseat" with Malaysian Airlines aboard their 737-800 and 777-200 aircraft - So this incident had a strange feeling of personal attachment.

_______________________________________

My first point of contention is the claim that they have not located the aircraft.
I'm 100% sure they know exactly where it is and they likely knew within minutes of it being confirmed down.

There are MULTIPLE independent and redundant systems that are operating aboard this aircraft type and configuration that are not related in task and essentially perform completely separate tasks, yet for one reason or another, utilize accurate real time location reporting as part of what they do.

Things such as real time maint. reports (that continuously send flight performance data to the aircraft maint. teams throughout the flight) would have included a GPS lat. Long. co-ordinate current to the last event log. If there was a major structural or mechanical failure, this would likely have been reported (even as system after system failed within seconds before complete disintegration in mid air). (Read more about the Air France Airbus A-330-200 crash and the way this system works with google search if you want to know more). This is a Boeing aircraft, and the system on the 777-200 is not as modern and comprehensive as the newer 330-200 airbus system, but its still well within capability of this.

Secondly - Civil Aviation Laws dictate that all civilian flights over open water must carry a emergency locating beacon device ... basically an EPIRB. On a small private aircraft, this would normally have to be activated by a person at the time of emergency, however the ones fitted to *most* large commercial airliners these days are automatically activated when they are triggered by a G-Load sensor (essentially recording a high G-force that is deemed consistent with a crash scenario) and possibly even water activation. I'm not 100% on these systems and what MA uses, but they are definately fitted in one shape or form.

Thirdly - Military Radar. I can tell you right now, the counties in that region are all monitoring that airspace with almost paranoid levels of constant observation. Whilst Indonesia and Vietnam do not have the most capable or moderm radar systems around these days, Singapore does - and you'd be hard pressed flying a kite in that area without one, if not all of them knowing.

We often flew joint exercises with countries in the area (from Singapore) and I'm more than aware of who is watching what and how closely round there

On top of that, there are "unspoken tensions" between countries in this region that I won't detail here - that ensure that with some countries getting their ambitions mixed up with their capabilities, there are always paranoid eyes watching everything and everyone who might dare cross their line of turf.

Then there are the SOSUS listening devices that have been placed all through the SE Asian waters - capable of hearing a boat leave port in Vietnam and identifying it as a village fisherman or a military type vessel.. its incredibly accurate and capable, uses triangulation and other classified methods by which is can locate a sound, vessel or target of interest down to a few meters. The system is constantly monitoring and everything is saved for analysts to review - for a long long period of time in review if required.

This area of the world is particularly "Hot" right now... strategically, things are starting to get a little on the "tense" side with defense budgets of all in the region growing and growing - and a good deal of that being spent by everyone on equipment that accurately monitors all activity of shipping and aircraft movements that cross their territory or even come close to it.

(Above Color/Bolded By Me)

Derryn Hench, thanks for joining in and lending your expertise in the field.

I bolded the two above points in order to ask what your take is on these two specific points you brought up.

1) In your opinion, why do you think they are withholding knowledge of the location of the (downed) aircraft? What would be the reasoning behind taking such an approach, knowing there are hundreds of family members in agony, and millions of people (the court of public opinion) all asking the same questions? I am truly curious to hear your analysis.

2) I understand you pointed out the logging of the structural failure to support the point that MA is aware of the location of airliner. My question is technical. The situation you described (of the logs being able to describe data in the event of a system after system failure in the event of a complete destruction mid-air), would this be telemetry already received by the airline or retrieved via the FDR?

I hope my questions make sense. I look forward to learning more from you as we await more news....

 

[MsFacetious]

UPDATE [11.37am]: Malaysian authorities are working with international intelligence and counter-terrorism units. Minister Hishammuddin Hussein says he has met with officers from the FBI and confirmed that an oil slick was indeed found in Vietnam waters but no debris has been detected.

“We know that, as of now, Vietnam aircraft are on site to verify (the source of the substances on) the surface of the water,” Hishammuddin said.

Singapore has deployed three vessels to aid in search and rescue. Hishammuddin says MH370 may have made an 'air turnback'.

http://my.news.yahoo.com/mas-aircraft-goes-missing--says-airline-023820132.html

An air turn back is an aviation term for the return of an aircraft to the airport of origin as a result of a malfunction or suspected malfunction of any item on the aircraft.

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nati...tigating-the-possibility-of-an-air-turn-back/

There is another airport just before they headed over water...
If they were going to turn back that would be the place to go.
Though I'm still not sure why they wouldn't call it in if they were turning back. :twocents:

 

[HMSHood]

I don't think this has been posted here yet; if so, I missed it.

The Austrian and Italian passport purchasers had consecutive numbers for this flight. (They were stolen passports.) The travel schedules of the Italian and Australian passengers have been posted on a Chinese forum.

According to Google Translate, the ticket numbers are:

Ticket number: 784 - 099 *******
Ticket number: 784 - 100 *******

Could be they were illegals trying to get out of the country, of course.

This is rather interesting. I saw this on another site.

Italian passenger:

Mar 8, CZ748(MH370),00:35-6:30 KUL-PEK

Mar 8, CZ767(KL898),11:55-15:15 PEK-AMS

Mar 8, CZ7737 (KL1139),20:55-22:20 AMS-CPH,

Ticket Number:784-*******099

Austrian passenger:

Mar 8, CZ748(MH370),00:35-6:30 KUL-PEK

Mar 8, CZ767(KL898),11:55-15:15 PEK-AMS

Mar 8, CZ7689 (KL1775),21:05-22:25 AMS-FRA

Ticket Number:784-*******100

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/othe...sing-1830-gmt-7-mar-2014-sar-underway-76.html

Both are flying to Beijing than Amsterdam. However with the Italian, the destination is Copenhagen, while Austrian is heading to Frankfurt.

 

[SilkySifaka]

I had seen a report earlier today (unconfirmed) that one of the Russian passports was suspect. Didn't want to post it because I didn't want to start a rumor. WOW, if true.

Wondering if they all went through the same security line, had the same agent checking their passports/etc...?

Only thing is, why waste 4 operatives when one would do.

 

[watcher9]

This is where the "last contact at 1:30" is coming from it was NOT with ATC but with another pilot:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/09/malaysia-airlines-missing-plane-fears-worst

The Boeing 777 disappeared from radar screens just 40 minutes into its flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing in the early hours of Saturday morning. It was last detected over the seas between Malaysia and Vietnam.

------------------------------


The pilot of another flight told a Malaysian newspaper he had made brief contact with the plane via his emergency frequency, at the request of Vietnamese aviation authorities who had been unable to reach it as expected. Vietnam has said it believes the flight never entered its airspace.

The unnamed man said his Japan-bound plane was deep into Vietnamese airspace when officials asked him to relay to MH370 to establish its position, and that he succeeded at about 1.30am local time.

“The voice on the other side could have been either Captain Zaharie [Ahmad Shah, 53,] or Fariq [Abdul Hamid, 27], but I was sure it was the co-pilot.

“There were a lot of interference ... static ... but I heard mumbling from the other end.

“That was the last time we heard from them, as we lost the connection,” he told the New Straits Times.

He said he did not think any more of it at the time, as losing connections was common.

It could have been either, but he was sure it was the co-pilot.
I wonder why he said that. Did he recognize the voice or did he assume that since it didn't sound like the pilot, that it must have been the co-pilot?
What if it were neither of them?

Also, I wonder if Vietnam authorities couldn't reach the plane because no one would answer them or because they couldn't see it on their radar?

 

[Sleuthster]

Someone said on CNN's comments that it's easy to sneak in to China that someone doesn't need a passport they can go through some 3rd world country or something. This is what hubby just told me. Well I don't think they where trying to sneak into China.

I have come to believe that they bought those tickets from China Air together with 2 stolen (in Thailand) passports, at least 2, and they where not trying to sneak into China. IMO they wanted to blow up the plane!

Hubby said why would they do that, now the plane is missing. Agreed, I think it was supposed to blow up over land and they missed the mark for some reason. Maybe over Ho Chi Minh City? Now wouldn't that have started some problems with Malaysia and Veitnam?

 

[Derryn Hunch]

Derryn, thank you for all of that info, very interesting! I want to ask you if you ever flew out of the KL airport? How was security? I've seen comments on a pilot forum about them allowing passengers to bring bottled water through security, any idea on whether or not this is valid?

RWY 34R KLA - From on board MA B777-200 I took this out the left rear cockpit window (behind captain) as we lined up for departure.

I haven't personally flown out of there as official "in command" aircrew, however I have flown out of and into there as PAX and jumpseating up front (the spare cockpit crew seat that folds down behind the pilots for training or maint. crew when required).

As far as security goes, There is very little in the way of arrivals into KL. Its basically "declare if you have something, we might be there if we're not busy... but if you are unlucky enough to be caught by some random chance with drugs well, you best call your friends and family and let them you know you're "going to hang here for a while"

Departure is fairly stringent.

Its a fairly low level standard security check on immigration check completion - then there is another more "up close" one at the actual departure gate... so you actually go through another x-ray and metal detection scan of all carry on, body and duty free, before going into a small holding room where the gate leads down to the aircraft.

 

[Leilei]

Only thing is, why waste 4 operatives when one would do.

I think it would depend on *what* they did, really. There were multiple terrorists on each 9/11 flight, so...

All speculation, of course, but it I think there are a LOT of hinky meters going off.

 

[panthera]

Exactly, how many times has a plane gone down due to pilot error/mechanical error and there where 2 people with stolen passports on it??

Now reports of possibly two more with stolen passports for a total of four, with at least one being on Interpol. Coincidental they are all on a plane which vanishes off the radar? Not.



MOO