Malaysia airlines plane may have crashed 239 people on board #16

[Hatfield]

Hulamom posted an excellent video that shows what hypoxia can do in the "what do you think" thread.
I am going to post it here because it really is chilling how it affects pilots.

I hope that is OK Hulamom :tyou:

Pilot Declares Emergency Because Of Extreme Hypoxia - YouTube

Thank You Nymeria and Hulamom. WOW WOW WOW

That is some very serious stuff going on there. And amazing job by the 2nd pilot and tower to realize the pilot was in very serious trouble.

With all the talk of hypoxia, I really had absolutely no idea how serious it is. I could see where something like this may have happened somehow.

 

[gregjrichards]

New updated Daily Mail article I thought I would post it. Thanks for all your posts and updates everyone.

'Last joyride': MH370 pilot upset over wife's decision to move out and in 'no state of mind to be flying' says long-time friend
MH370 pilot devastated over his marriage breakdown
A close friend has described Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah as in 'no state of mind to be flying'
The same friend warns he might have taken MH370 on a 'last joyride'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ying-says-long-time-friend.html#ixzz2x22NgblN

 

[lawstudent]

I don't think it is either imperialist or racist to say that customers who purchase fares on public transportation have the expectation of service after the sale. I don't think Malaysia's history of ancient or modern seafaring commerce correlates to this situation. if it did, all that history should have produced a better outcome: in terms of reaching out at the earliest opportunity to collaborate and cooperate with entities of any country, nationality, or persuasion who had pertinent data or could assist in providing same. there are numerous situations in today's world where reasoned criticism cannot be expressed because it might be perceived as imperialist or racist. we're not talking about a shipment of rare spices or silks here. if lack of experience in a particular arena results in a most unfortunate outcome it's not untoward to suggest that a system of sharing resources and assistance should be in place. and any entity which wastes precious time by proudly insisting on going it alone should expect and accept criticism when it comes. I've heard it said that "Malaysia was in over its head and didn't know it." I disagree with part of that: the not knowing part. "pride goeth before a fall" is a very old truism that has eternal relevance. IMO

It's not racist IMO, but it is quite unrealistic to expect most nations to have U.S.-style safety regulations. We are an exceptionally organized society, for better or for worse depending on the situation.

I guess it depends on how you define "in over your head." If you think an airline shouldn't be run without the latest tech and security, then they were over their heads, but so is almost every other nation. Everyone country is in over its head while developing, but it doesn't have a whole lot of options. It's not so much that they aren't ready to "swim" - as you said, it's not "not knowing" - it's just that they are okay with taking the risk - there's not really a standard you have to reach before you can implement an airline - we've been flying them long before they had any sort of reliability. Most countries contain many people who accept lots of risks Americans would not, and I'm sure there are some things that go in the other direction. Many of them simply don't have a choice or, as I mentioned earlier, are too busy worrying about immediate problems to focus on worst case scenarios.

It reminds be of the plane that crashed evacuating orphans out of Vietnam. That plane wasn't meant for passengers - there were not adequate masks, adequate seating, adequate anything. If there was any sort of crash or malfunction, people were going to die. They packed a bunch of kids in their with few adults, and half died despite the pilot and crew's heroic efforts. They were also within strike zone of enemy fire. But people were so desperate to get out and to evacuate infants, that they did it anyway. There will always be people willing to board risky flights, but fortunate most on this board are not in that situation it seems. I choose not to fly in most countries because that's how I choose to address the risks. I don't expect everyone to be as worried as I am. In those countries, the risk from nonexistent building codes alone outweighs any flight risk.

And I don't consider an airline public transportation - certainly I expect not to crash, and that's why families will be compensated. Unfortunately, my expectations don't dictate whether I'll be around to get compensated if they aren't met. Does the government run the airlines in Malaysia? I take public transportation regularly, and while I expect the police and staff to take their jobs seriously and generally think they do a good job, I have no illusions of safety. I know someone could attack a subway and there's nothing anyone can do. I know there could be a crash, and there have been many recently - fortunately no deaths. I work in government buildings, which obviously carries a risk. These are risks I take to advance my career - I don't believe the government can assure me of perfect safety, and I can't ensure my own safety in most situations.

 

[Brightbird]

The cure for hypoxia is oxygen - either applied with a mask or by descending until the air is oxygen-dense enough (typically under 10,000, varies from person to person based slightly on fitness and smoking status). I believe the kiletta 66 pilot descended and then applied oxygen once he was thinking clearly again.

Your brain suffers oxygen deprivation very quickly. I always think of hypoxia as having 6 drinks in 8 seconds. You feel great. You have no idea anything is wrong. No really, I'm fine! And then you do stupid stuff that makes perfect sense to you at the time. And, then you either get oxygen or you die.

Curious and possibly dumb question, Hulamom. Do pilots ever practice going into a state of hypoxia to see what it feels like? Or is that too dangerous for the brain?

 

[Tiepos]

OT

Thank You. I need one of the automated ones badly, and if anyone ever considers buying a good one, get an automated version too.

Mine is actually a decent good model but not automated and after doing some hard work to actually find Mars, the problem is the earth movement actually makes it move across the eyepiece very quickly. So it leaves the viewing area before you know it and you have to re-adjust all over again.

I would love to get an automated one because I live in the country and have a great night sky.

That is infuriating, isn’t it?

It’s hard to decipher the reviews on telescopes in the fancy amateur range too, which is why I haven’t upgraded. I’d love to get a motorized scope. They can be had for less than $500, but it’s so hard to figure out what’s worth buying with the wildly conflicting reviews!

It’s a bit like buying camera gear when you first start out. So much of the feedback seems to be influenced by brand preference, as opposed to actual useful information.

 

[alioop]

Thank You Nymeria and Hulamom. WOW WOW WOW

That is some very serious stuff going on there. And amazing job by the 2nd pilot and tower to realize the pilot was in very serious trouble.

With all the talk of hypoxia, I really had absolutely no idea how serious it is. I could see where something like this may have happened somehow.

That ATC guy saved their lives by instructing them to descend when he realised they had hypoxia. Though was a risky instruction as they said they couldn't control altitude or airspeed.

 

[panthera]

The more I read about the passengers and crew, the more I pray that they were incapacitated early on in the flight and did not feel pain or fear. I cannot bear to imagine the hysteria and sheer terror of what they may have been feeling if they were conscious. IMO

I have prayed that all along, and perhaps why I wish to believe a sudden decompression theory which would have rendered passengers AND crew unconscious.



MOO

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Australia said improved weather would allow the hunt for the plane to resume Wednesday after gale-force winds and heavy rain forced a daylong delay. Searchers face a daunting task of combing a vast expanse of choppy seas for suspected remnants of the aircraft sighted earlier.

"We're not searching for a needle in a haystack - we're still trying to define where the haystack is," Australia's deputy defence chief, Air Marshal Mark Binskin, told reporters at a military base in Perth as idled planes stood behind him.


Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/MH370-search...7/articleID/337401/Default.aspx#ixzz2x0MU7Iup


________

“As many as 12 aircraft are expected to be involved in the search tomorrow (today), including seven military aircraft and five civil aircraft,” it added.

According to the AMSA, the Royal Australian Navy's HMAS Success will return to the search area and conduct a surface sweep of an area identified Monday afternoon by a Royal Australian Air Force P3 Orion as the location "for several objects of interest".

“A total of six countries are now assisting in the search - Australia, New Zealand, the US, Japan, China and South Korea,” the statement said.

“India has also offered to join the search and recovery operation.”

China’s polar supply ship Xue Long or Snow Dragon and three other Chinese ships are also expected to arrive in the search area on Wednesday.

http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/hunt-for-lost-malaysian-jet-to-resume-today_920248.html

I apologize in advance... As I am way behind...
But...I am encouraged that China will be using their polar supply ship, Xue Long (Snow Dragon)...

It seems to me (in my limited knowledge of all things nautical) that this ship would be prepared for extreme weather... And may not find the stormy weather/sea conditions as daunting as some of the other craft find it...

All JMO...

 

[Momoffourboys]

Curious and possibly dumb question, Hulamom. Do pilots ever practice going into a state of hypoxia to see what it feels like? Or is that too dangerous for the brain?

They do in a controlled enviornment. Just watched a video on youtube.

 

[ElleElle]

New updated Daily Mail article I thought I would post it. Thanks for all your posts and updates everyone.

'Last joyride': MH370 pilot upset over wife's decision to move out and in 'no state of mind to be flying' says long-time friend
MH370 pilot devastated over his marriage breakdown
A close friend has described Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah as in 'no state of mind to be flying'
The same friend warns he might have taken MH370 on a 'last joyride'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ying-says-long-time-friend.html#ixzz2x22NgblN

More...

=Follows reports the doomed flight climbed to 43,000ft moments before disappearing from radar
=It stayed at that altitude for 23 minutes, but oxygen would have run out after just 12 minutes
=Expert says plane would have then flown on until it ran out of fuel

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Great news that searching is resuming today.

Thank you for posting the flight path map which shows the ATC areas. It can't be co incidence that they match almost perfectly. However I don't understand the reason for following the blue lines if those ATC 's would not have been able to "see" the plane anyway as the transponders were turned off. Unless the radars from the relevant countries associated with those ATC's follow similar lines and who ever was flying the plane, thought that flight path the most likely one to avoid being seen by radar.

Also I wonder what the risk of colliding with another plane would be without a transponder. Maybe that is the reason for changes in altitude, to avoid usual flight paths by other planes?

An update on my mangosteen floating experiment. It has now been floating in my bowl of water for around 21 hrs and is still happily floating. It has not changed at all, and no signs of sinking any time soon. It's skin is still hard. Will keep you updated.

I did read this week that flying lower at 12,000 feet is a way to avoid the more heavily trafficked flight paths.

Thanks for the mangosteen experiment. Love learning quirky new things along the way; I'd never heard of a mangosteen (or seen one) until this thread. I'm curious, and can't remember if you mentioned this earlier...is your experiment done with salt water?

 

[Isabelle]

That is the strangest thing I've ever heard!! He sounded drunk and high!! How did he regain control?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wonder if he had oxygen available? Someone could have told him to put his oxygen mask on. You don't necessarily know you are hypoxic, like a diabetic might not know their blood sugar is low, but others around them can tell something is off.

 

[HulaMum]

I would think a sudden drop in the plane's altitude would cause hypoxia. I tried finding some more information on it, but all the sites I looked up were too scientific for me...

No, the opposite is true. A sudden descent would be the (possibly attempted) cure for hypoxia. Getting that airplane below 10,000 feet would be the immediate goal.

 

[Isabelle]

Thank You Nymeria and Hulamom. WOW WOW WOW

That is some very serious stuff going on there. And amazing job by the 2nd pilot and tower to realize the pilot was in very serious trouble.

With all the talk of hypoxia, I really had absolutely no idea how serious it is. I could see where something like this may have happened somehow.

Hypoxia is an emergency. Initially there is a gradual decline in oxygen level with gradual decline of mental status. When oxygen level drops to 85% and below, there is a sharp, rapid decline of all body functions and altered metabolism can quickly lead to death (unless medical intervention is provided).

 

[Momoffourboys]

In memory of lives lost. Re-posting.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/15/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-passenger-vignettes/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

 

[Brightbird]

I watched an episode of aircraft investigation last night. The plane lost control not long after take off and dived into the sea, so not similar to MH370. But in the end, the investigators concluded that the cause was "subtle incapacitation" of both pilots. Subtle incapacitation includes things like fatigue, stress, drugs etc. In that case, they deduced it was probably fatigue. While I'm loath to accept the speculation about the captains state of mind, if we are to believe reports about his personal life I wonder if his mind wasn't on the job due to stress. This was the co-pilots first flight without a supervisor so he was relatively inexperienced. My theory is this occurred due to a series of unlikely technical problems, and pilot stress and distraction would fit into this picture imo.

 

[ilovepierre]

No, the opposite is true. A sudden descent would be the (possibly attempted) cure for hypoxia. Getting that airplane below 10,000 feet would be the immediate goal.

I was thinking more along the lines of descending too fast.
Could that cause any adverse effects on the passengers/pilots.
Maybe not. I don't know what I'm talking about anymore :scared:

 

[Soulmagent]

I watched an episode of aircraft investigation last night. The plane lost control not long after take off and dived into the sea, so not similar to MH370. But in the end, the investigators concluded that the cause was "subtle incapacitation" of both pilots. Subtle incapacitation includes things like fatigue, stress, drugs etc. In that case, they deduced it was probably fatigue. While I'm loath to accept the speculation about the captains state of mind, if we are to believe reports about his personal life I wonder if his mind wasn't on the job due to stress. This was the co-pilots first flight without a supervisor so he was relatively inexperienced. My theory is this occurred due to a series of unlikely technical problems, and pilot stress and distraction would fit into this picture imo.

He co piloted a smaller planes before . He was moved up. My guess is he was probably a pretty good pilot as well...

Links are everywhere.

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/mh370-co-pilot-new-to-boeing-777-mas-says

The co-pilot is new to the type, he was moved up from our lower fleet,” Ahmad Jauhari said during the daily press conference on the search for MH370 here today. - See more at: http://www.themalaymailonline.com/m...w-to-boeing-777-mas-says#sthash.1Zl9rVYw.dpuf

 

[SouthAussie]

I watched an episode of aircraft investigation last night. The plane lost control not long after take off and dived into the sea, so not similar to MH370. But in the end, the investigators concluded that the cause was "subtle incapacitation" of both pilots. Subtle incapacitation includes things like fatigue, stress, drugs etc. In that case, they deduced it was probably fatigue. While I'm loath to accept the speculation about the captains state of mind, if we are to believe reports about his personal life I wonder if his mind wasn't on the job due to stress. This was the co-pilots first flight without a supervisor so he was relatively inexperienced. My theory is this occurred due to a series of unlikely technical problems, and pilot stress and distraction would fit into this picture imo.

I tend to agree Brightbird. I also saw an aircraft investigation some time ago that showed a plane where the altometer (or whatever the instrument is that shows the plane vs the horizon) was putting out wrong readings due to a blocked intake valve.

The pilots were confused by the readings and somehow flew into the ground (I think it must have been a night flight, though in all honesty I can't remember that part :waitasec: ). This happened even though the plane was audibly telling them to increase altitude, through its warning system.

 

[HulaMum]

They do in a controlled enviornment. Just watched a video on youtube.

I asked my husband about the simulated hypoxia training but I think he's flying now (therefore not responding). It was never part of my training (but I only went to a commercial level, not airline transport level).

ETA: He answered "Yes, some civilian airline pilots. Not a lot. Almost all military pilots."

I do know that this kiletta 66 *video* is used in training. It was required viewing and fodder for discussion at his FlightSafety training this week. As far as hypoxia awareness, pilots are also taught to be on the lookout for headaches, blue fingernails and feelings of euphoria.