Malaysia airlines plane may have crashed 239 people on board #16

[Nymeria]

I apologize in advance... As I am way behind...
But...I am encouraged that China will be using their polar supply ship, Xue Long (Snow Dragon)...

It seems to me (in my limited knowledge of all things nautical) that this ship would be prepared for extreme weather... And may not find the stormy weather/sea conditions as daunting as some of the other craft find it...

All JMO...

Not sure if it would be good for those kind of seas or not.
I thought I read it was an "icebreaker".
Are they more steady and bottom heavy because of that?
Ok boat people, bring out your answers TIA!

Side note, when I read about that boat I thought it was such a beautiful name, "Snow Dragon".

 

[HulaMum]

I was thinking more along the lines of descending too fast.
Could that cause any adverse effects on the passengers/pilots.
Maybe not. I don't know what I'm talking about anymore :scared:

A rapid descent would make the passengers uncomfortable - g forces, ear popping, maybe nausea, imo. But it's an emergency at that point so you do whatever it takes to get that plane lower.

 

[ilovepierre]

I watched an episode of aircraft investigation last night. The plane lost control not long after take off and dived into the sea, so not similar to MH370. But in the end, the investigators concluded that the cause was "subtle incapacitation" of both pilots. Subtle incapacitation includes things like fatigue, stress, drugs etc. In that case, they deduced it was probably fatigue. While I'm loath to accept the speculation about the captains state of mind, if we are to believe reports about his personal life I wonder if his mind wasn't on the job due to stress. This was the co-pilots first flight without a supervisor so he was relatively inexperienced. My theory is this occurred due to a series of unlikely technical problems, and pilot stress and distraction would fit into this picture imo.

I could see this as a likely scenario.
Not necessarily the fault/intent of either pilot, but just fatigue, stress, etc doubled with possible mechanical problems.

Do we know 100% that ACARS and the transponders were deliberately turned off? Could the "turning off" of these systems have been due to a mechanical problem on board the plane? I know media reports have said it was deliberate and sabotage, but what if it really wasn't?

 

[ilovepierre]

A rapid descent would make the passengers uncomfortable - g forces, ear popping, maybe nausea, imo. But it's an emergency at that point so you do whatever it takes to get that plane lower.

Ok thanks
I wasn't sure.

 

[ilovepierre]

Not sure if it would be good for those kind of seas or not.
I thought I read it was an "icebreaker".
Are they more steady and bottom heavy because of that?
Ok boat people, bring out your answers TIA!

Side note, when I read about that boat I thought it was such a beautiful name, "Snow Dragon".

I wonder if there are ice bergs/floes in this part of the ocean?
I know the search area is close to Antarctica, is it not?
If so, an icebreaker would make sense.

 

[Nymeria]

I tend to agree Brightbird. I also saw an aircraft investigation some time ago that showed a plane where the altometer (or whatever the instrument is that shows the plane vs the horizon) was putting out wrong readings due to a blocked intake valve.

The pilots were confused by the readings and somehow flew into the ground (I think it must have been a night flight, though in all honesty I can't remember that part :waitasec: ). This happened even though the plane was audibly telling them to increase altitude, through its warning system.

Are you thinking of the Air France 447?
Not the same problems, but it sounds similar (to my non aerotech brain!).

"The final report, released at a news conference on 5 July 2012, stated that the aircraft crashed after temporary inconsistencies between the airspeed measurements – likely due to the aircraft's pitot tubes being obstructed by ice crystals – caused the autopilot to disconnect, after which the crew reacted incorrectly and ultimately led the aircraft to an aerodynamic stall from which they did not recover."

Air France Flight 447 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Nymeria]

IlovePierrre, Here is the info on Snow Dragon , FWIW-

Xuě Lóng (雪龙, pinyin: Xuělóng; literally Snow Dragon)[4] is a Chinese icebreaking research vessel. Built in 1993 at Kherson Shipyard in Ukraine, she was converted from an Arctic cargo ship to a polar research and re-supply vessel by Hudong-Zhonghua Shipbuilding of Shanghai by the mid-90s. Extensively upgraded in 2007, she was expected to go through another upgrade in 2013.

MV Xue Long - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


PS- Google is going to start charging me soon :facepalm:

 

[SouthAussie]

Are you thinking of the Air France 447?
Not the same problems, but it sounds similar (to my non aerotech brain!).

"The final report, released at a news conference on 5 July 2012, stated that the aircraft crashed after temporary inconsistencies between the airspeed measurements – likely due to the aircraft's pitot tubes being obstructed by ice crystals – caused the autopilot to disconnect, after which the crew reacted incorrectly and ultimately led the aircraft to an aerodynamic stall from which they did not recover."

Air France Flight 447 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hmm ... I don't really remember which aircraft it was. But it definitely flew right into the ground at full speed and disintegrated into a million pieces. I remember hearing the warning system saying 'lift up' 'lift up' 'lift up' over and over and over.

The pilots thought the warning system was going wacky, not that the altometer was giving an incorrect reading.

 

[Nymeria]

Hmm ... I don't really remember which aircraft it was. But it definitely flew right into the ground at full speed and disintegrated into a million pieces. I remember hearing the warning system saying 'lift up' 'lift up' 'lift up' over and over and over.

That sounds horrifying SouthAussie.

I've not wanted to fly in recent years just because of all the hassle of it.
After 3 weeks of these threads I may now have a NEW reason

 

[ilovepierre]

IlovePierrre, Here is the info on Snow Dragon , FWIW-

Xuě Lóng (雪龙, pinyin: Xuělóng; literally Snow Dragon)[4] is a Chinese icebreaking research vessel. Built in 1993 at Kherson Shipyard in Ukraine, she was converted from an Arctic cargo ship to a polar research and re-supply vessel by Hudong-Zhonghua Shipbuilding of Shanghai by the mid-90s. Extensively upgraded in 2007, she was expected to go through another upgrade in 2013.

MV Xue Long - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


PS- Google is going to start charging me soon :facepalm:

Me too! I've Googled so much stuff this last 3 weeks...

 

[MsFacetious]

Hmm ... I don't really remember which aircraft it was. But it definitely flew right into the ground at full speed and disintegrated into a million pieces. I remember hearing the warning system saying 'lift up' 'lift up' 'lift up' over and over and over.

The pilots thought the warning system was going wacky, not that the altometer was giving an incorrect reading.

These are the two that immediately come to mind:

The one where the pilots were worried about the navigational system and didn't notice the auto pilot went off?

Mayday - The Plane That Vanished Lost in space - YouTube

Or Turkish Air?

Mayday Air Crash Investigation S10E06 Who's In Control Turkish Airlines Flight 1951 - YouTube

 

[nomoresorrow]

I tend to agree Brightbird. I also saw an aircraft investigation some time ago that showed a plane where the altometer (or whatever the instrument is that shows the plane vs the horizon) was putting out wrong readings due to a blocked intake valve.

The pilots were confused by the readings and somehow flew into the ground (I think it must have been a night flight, though in all honesty I can't remember that part :waitasec: ). This happened even though the plane was audibly telling them to increase altitude, through its warning system.

Sounds possibly like the Air New Zealand crash in 2008, which was due to the angle of attack sensors being frozen. It was a test flight.

 

[ilovepierre]

IlovePierrre, Here is the info on Snow Dragon , FWIW-

Xuě Lóng (雪龙, pinyin: Xuělóng; literally Snow Dragon)[4] is a Chinese icebreaking research vessel. Built in 1993 at Kherson Shipyard in Ukraine, she was converted from an Arctic cargo ship to a polar research and re-supply vessel by Hudong-Zhonghua Shipbuilding of Shanghai by the mid-90s. Extensively upgraded in 2007, she was expected to go through another upgrade in 2013.

MV Xue Long - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


PS- Google is going to start charging me soon :facepalm:

Me too! I've Googled so much stuff this last 3 weeks...

 

[MLO]

I could see this as a likely scenario.
Not necessarily the fault/intent of either pilot, but just fatigue, stress, etc doubled with possible mechanical problems.

Do we know 100% that ACARS and the transponders were deliberately turned off? Could the "turning off" of these systems have been due to a mechanical problem on board the plane? I know media reports have said it was deliberate and sabotage, but what if it really wasn't?

I think it's possible that in the confusion from hypoxia they were randomly swatting at buttons to make the noises stop. I remember on the Helios flight that the pilot got agitated and yelled at the air traffic control guy asking about the location of his something. They thought it was odd because he didn't answer their question and asked about something he should have known the location of.

 

[MLO]

Sounds possibly like the Air New Zealand crash in 2008, which was due to the angle of attack sensors being frozen. It was a test flight.

That's one of the episodes I watched last night. They crashed into the ocean. The took the censor cover off to paint it and instead of cleaning the plane with a cloth they hosed it down with fire hoses. Because the cover was off they got water where it wasn't supposed to go and it froze while in the air.

 

[alioop]

I did read this week that flying lower at 12,000 feet is a way to avoid the more heavily trafficked flight paths.

Thanks for the mangosteen experiment. Love learning quirky new things along the way; I'd never heard of a mangosteen (or seen one) until this thread. I'm curious, and can't remember if you mentioned this earlier...is your experiment done with salt water?

Good thinking about the salt as I didn't add any. But I will goggle salt concentrations of the sea and see if I can work out how much salt to add. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Brightbird]

He co piloted a smaller planes before . He was moved up. My guess is he was probably a pretty good pilot as well...

Links are everywhere.

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/mh370-co-pilot-new-to-boeing-777-mas-says

I do agree he was probably a good pilot. But my understanding is that he was new to flying 777s and this was the first flight he didn't have a supervising co-pilot. I'm not saying he acted negligently, just pondering whether an emergency occurred and a lack of experience added to the whole situation.

Also, just to add to the accident I described above where the investigators put it down to "subtle incapacitation". They also found that pilot fatigue impaired communication between the two pilots. They weren't following standard protocols because they were exhausted. Not saying this is what happened to MH370.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Well while we're waiting here's a little distraction for you. My latest creation;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTwy6fi_Y4E&feature=youtu.be

Make sure to "like" it!

I have watched it... Enjoyed it... :floorlaugh:...


But I don't know how to "like" it...(I can't find the "like" button...:blushing

Thoughts?

TIA...:seeya:

 

[Brightbird]

I think it's possible that in the confusion from hypoxia they were randomly swatting at buttons to make the noises stop. I remember on the Helios flight that the pilot got agitated and yelled at the air traffic control guy asking about the location of his something. They thought it was odd because he didn't answer their question and asked about something he should have known the location of.

This is pretty much my number 1 theory at the moment. A combination of depressurization, hypoxia and pilot error.

 

[aa9511]

Has anyone else come to the same conclusion as I (after the news reports tonight), that the 8:19 partial ping is when the plane ran out of fuel?

I got this from combining what 2 experts said on CNN tonight - the first is the guy who wrote the book about plane crashes - he said that he didn't think that the plane had a mechanical malfunction (in the beginning time) because what happens is that when something happens to the plane, like a mechanical thing, something in the engine, etc., the Satcom antenna gets a signal, which it then passes on to the satellite.

Then, on the next program, Richard Quest was talking about the WSJ article which said that the 8:19 ping was not caused by human, and it was not on the hour (hourly pings were satellites sending pings to the Satcom...hello? are you there?). So that means that the 8:19 ping was from the plane to the satellite.

If we combine what these 2 experts say, I think the reasonable conclusion, IMO, is that this is when the plane ran out of fuel. At that precise point. When it ran out of fuel, it send a signal to its Satcom, which sent a signal to the satellite. This is the "partial handshake" at 8:19, IMO.

I do not know how long the plane would actually be in the air after that.

JMO.