Malaysia airlines plane may have crashed 239 people on board #16

[SouthAussie]

I wasn’t referencing the families of the Chinese casualties so much as their emotions are likely to be running high especially after the song and dance from Malaysian officials. In my opinion the Malaysian government's hands are dirty, starting with its negligent slow release of information to the international community that this plane, a) flew off course, b)there was no contact with the cockpit after the first hour of flight and c) its current status was "missing".

What I find most interesting about the article is this sentence

"The Chinese government, meanwhile, demanded that Malaysia turn over the satellite data it used to conclude that Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 went down in the southern Indian Ocean with no survivors after turning back from its flight path to Beijing on March 8."

I wonder if Malaysia has shared the satellite data it has used to draw its conclusion with to any other governments. Maybe it has and I just missed it in the plethora of information and misinformation that surrounds this case.

The satellite data (and conclusion) actually came from a British company via the British Government, one of our closest and most trusted allies. Which is why I think many of us Aussies find the conclusion drawn from the data credible, or at least highly likely.

 

[JerseyGirl]

I wasn’t referencing the families of the Chinese casualties so much as their emotions are likely to be running high especially after the song and dance from Malaysian officials. In my opinion the Malaysian government's hands are dirty, starting with its negligent slow release of information to the international community that this plane, a) flew off course, b)there was no contact with the cockpit after the first hour of flight and c) its current status was "missing".

What I find most interesting about the article is this sentence

"The Chinese government, meanwhile, demanded that Malaysia turn over the satellite data it used to conclude that Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 went down in the southern Indian Ocean with no survivors after turning back from its flight path to Beijing on March 8."

I wonder if Malaysia has shared the satellite data it has used to draw its conclusion with to any other governments. Maybe it has and I just missed it in the plethora of information and misinformation that surrounds this case.

I hardly think Malaysia is going to get away from anything. There are other countries, most notably the United States, that have a vested interest.

 

[JerseyGirl]

I would be enraged if I got on an international flight and found out passports had not been checked. That seems like derelict of duty.

Then I suggest you do not fly anywhere, mainly outside of the US or Britain:

The U.S. and Britain are among the few nations that do regularly check for stolen documents. Interpol says passengers were able to board aircraft more than a billion times last year alone without having their passports checked against its databases.

http://www.npr.org/2014/03/11/288814443/u-s-checks-for-stolen-passports-but-other-nations-fall-short

http://www.slate.com/articles/techn...countries_check_interpol_s_sltd_database.html

 

[Hatfield]

THe thing is, someone did something to that plane. They labelled it "criminal investigation" a few days ago - and yet they, conveniently, never talk about the "criminal" aspect of it. Except for continously throwing the pilots' names out there for everyone to latch onto.

Mary Schiavo on CNN is always saying that in the US, they do the investigation and the search at the same time, concurrently.

I don't know what Malaysia is doing. No one does. Are they doing search and investigation at the same tiime? Or are they only focused on the search? Because they have not said much if ANYTHING about the actual "criminal investigation' part of it.

If they ARE not currently doing any type of investigation (other than check pilots), then they could miss out on a lot of information that could be destroyed in these past almost 3 weeks now. Wouldn't it be of utmost importance to start investigating right away so that valuable information is not lost?

Maybe they are doing some investigating, and they are just keeping it secret. I think that's what gets the families so angry.

JMO.

Re Bolded part....I agree.

I believe the lack of information is what is making the families and others mad. There seems to be a purposely hiding of information or at a minimum it is being withheld.

Surely by now they have begun a thorough investigation of the pilots and maybe others. So what have they found out and if they are never going to share then is that something that other countries will ever be able to determine.

I dont think other countries will be able to investigate these people as much as Malaysia can and if they dont share....well.....there is the reason why people are angry.

 

[Waddles]

Personally I'm not denying there was incompetence but I do feel sorry for Malaysia, I feel they are being unfairly criticised.

This is an unprecedented air disaster and no one has found this plane. While the Malaysian government clearly made mistakes in its handling of the situation, I think they have done their best to respond to the situation with limited capabilities. I think all eyes would have been on them and certain countries would be mistrusting them regardless, even if they had done everything perfectly from the outset.

The simple fact is that we don't know, no one knows, they very much need help from outside and thankfully they are getting it through the coordinated and substantial efforts of 26 countries, who don't know where the plane is either.

Lessons will be learned from this but in the meantime we can't accuse them of withholding information or lying IMO, they just don't have info yet, no one does.
I might be completely wrong on this, maybe they do have information they're not sharing, I don't know but for now I think the criticism of Malaysia is very harsh.

 

[Carmelita]

The satellite data (and conclusion) actually came from a British company via the British Government, one of our closest and most trusted allies. Which is why I think many of us Aussies find the conclusion drawn from the data credible, or at least highly likely.

Thanks. I don't know what the international laws are or if the UK has turned the satellite data over to China or just Malaysia. Not that I trust China any further than Malaysia. All I know is that as of the articles publishing China was claiming that the satellite data has not been turned over to them.

 

[Carmelita]

I hardly think Malaysia is going to get away from anything. There are other countries, most notably the United States, that have a vested interest.

Sorry if I implied that I think Malaysia will get away with something. I think eventually the United States will retrieve enough information to make a very well informed guess as to where this plane went down, we may even recover it eventually.

My point was simply that Malaysia has hindered this investigation with their lack of forthrightness.

 

[SouthAussie]

Re Bolded part....I agree.

I believe the lack of information is what is making the families and others mad. There seems to be a purposely hiding of information or at a minimum it is being withheld.

Surely by now they have begun a thorough investigation of the pilots and maybe others. So what have they found out and if they are never going to share then is that something that other countries will ever be able to determine.

I dont think other countries will be able to investigate these people as much as Malaysia can and if they dont share....well.....there is the reason why people are angry.

I don't know if this helps, but this CNN article speaks of the detailed investigation into the passengers and crew of MH370. The Chinese seem to have investigated their own people .. it sounds as if each country is investigating their own citizens and reporting back to Malaysia.


"There are still a few countries who have yet to respond to our request for a background check," said Khalid Abu Bakar, inspector general of the Royal Malaysian Police Force. "But there are a few ... foreign intelligence agencies who have cleared all the(ir) passengers."

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/17/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane-scrutiny/?hpt=hp_t1

 

[Momoffourboys]

...back to the simulator.

 

[Hatfield]

Personally I'm not denying there was incompetence but I do feel sorry for Malaysia, I feel they are being unfairly criticised.

This is an unprecedented air disaster and no one has found this plane. While the Malaysian government clearly made mistakes in its handling of the situation, I think they have done their best to respond to the situation with limited capabilities. I think all eyes would have been on them and certain countries would be mistrusting them regardless, even if they had done everything perfectly from the outset.

The simple fact is that we don't know, no one knows, they very much need help from outside and thankfully they are getting it through the coordinated and substantial efforts of 26 countries, who don't know where the plane is either.

Lessons will be learned from this but in the meantime we can't accuse them of withholding information or lying IMO, they just don't have info yet, no one does.
I might be completely wrong on this, maybe they do have information they're not sharing, I don't know but for now I think the criticism of Malaysia is very harsh.

All JMO
I partially agree but after watching their officials and reading as much as I can, it seems IMO only, that they are purposely withholding information mainly about the investigation into who was involved in bringing the plane down.

They also seemed to want to hide that batteries were on board as that was very slow info to get out and it seemed it had to be pulled out of them. And the list of all on board was very slow and had to be pulled out from other government pressure. Things like that.

Their own actions have caused their own criticism.

If they would have been more forthcoming from day 1, then they would not receive as much criticsim.

I do agree with you that some of the critisism is over the top. Like the families calling them murderers and things. I seriously dont think their government was directly responsible but they need to do a much better job of being honest and open about the investigation into who took down the plane.

 

[bijoux]

BBM
(respectfully, of course!)

Thanks, me too.

But more than thoughts on what Malaysia is doing or not doing (I do have faith in the global teamwork), I'm focussed on the 'how' and 'why' this happened, thus what security and other measures might airlines have to take in the future to mitigate recurrence.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Sorry if I implied that I think Malaysia will get away with something. I think eventually the United States will retrieve enough information to make a very well informed guess as to where this plane went down, we may even recover it eventually.

My point was simply that Malaysia has hindered this investigation with their lack of forthrightness.

In the beginning, yes, I agree, but I also believe they were in over their heads and they didn't know it.

Well, did anyone else in the world, that night or early the next morning, believe that the plane crashed in the Southern Indian Ocean?? No, everyone, including Malaysia AND CHINA, believed it was either in the South China Sea or Bay of Thailand.

 

[popsicle]

Many countries hindered the investigation imo. They wouldn't allow searchers or they hesitated days before sharing information on their sat and radar etc

 

[Boodles]

Re Bolded part....I agree.

I believe the lack of information is what is making the families and others mad. There seems to be a purposely hiding of information or at a minimum it is being withheld.

Surely by now they have begun a thorough investigation of the pilots and maybe others. So what have they found out and if they are never going to share then is that something that other countries will ever be able to determine.

I dont think other countries will be able to investigate these people as much as Malaysia can and if they dont share....well.....there is the reason why people are angry.

I can understand keeping things secret during the course of an investigation. As much as we may hate it, it serves a purpose.

But, how can the timeline surrounding the initial "losing the plane" incident possibly be explained? Between 1:20am and 2:40am, was anyone doing anything, and if so, what? Then what did they do from 2:40am until the public announcement at 7:20(IIRC)am that the plane was lost? Were they trying to locate the plane to ensure the safety of any potential victims? Or were they chasing their tails trying to figure out how to save face?!? To me, the initial handling of this (after they "lost" their own plane by improper tracking) was where they earned an "F." They have only earned more "minuses" since.

I am sure they are embarrassed and unhappy about this tragedy. And I would love to learn that they were, in fact, on the ball every step of the way. But when they search the pilots' homes a damn week after the plane went missing, my hopes are dashed. Negligent and inept, sadly, are the only words I can think to describe their actions.

Nothing may have changed the outcome once that plane took off. And I get it that "stuff happens" and every possible eventuality can't be anticipated. It's natural for most people to want justice or even vengeance after being victimized. But to me, regarding the events on the plane itself, it is what it is, and all we can do now is learn from this tragedy.

But what did not have to happen was the 16+ days of emotional torture of the passengers' and crew's loved ones. If the airline, military and government officials had not screwed up so royally, this vast black hole of information would not exist.

 

[Momoffourboys]

I can understand keeping things secret during the course of an investigation. As much as we may hate it, it serves a purpose.

But, how can the timeline surrounding the initial "losing the plane" incident possibly be explained? Between 1:20am and 2:40am, was anyone doing anything, and if so, what? Then what did they do from 2:40am until the public announcement at 7:20(IIRC)am that the plane was lost? Were they trying to locate the plane to ensure the safety of any potential victims? Or were they chasing their tails trying to figure out how to save face?!? To me, the initial handling of this (after they "lost" their own plane by improper tracking) was where they earned an "F." They have only earned more "minuses" since.

I am sure they are embarrassed and unhappy about this tragedy. And I would love to learn that they were, in fact, on the ball every step of the way. But when they search the pilots' homes a damn week after the plane went missing, my hopes are dashed. Negligent and inept, sadly, are the only words I can think to describe their actions.

Nothing may have changed the outcome once that plane took off. And I get it that "stuff happens" and every possible eventuality can't be anticipated. It's natural for most people to want justice or even vengeance after being victimized. But to me, regarding the events on the plane itself, it is what it is, and all we can do now is learn from this tragedy.

But what did not have to happen was the 16+ days of emotional torture of the passengers' and crew's loved ones. If the airline, military and government officials had not screwed up so royally, this vast black hole of information would not exist.

You are a tough act to follow, Boodles.
:goodpost:

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Please don't agree with me. It makes me feel weird. :scared:

:giggle:

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I feel sorry for Malaysia. I know this hasn't been brilliantly handled but I doubt they had the capabilities to deal with something this big, and let's just remember the language barriers between the government, the families, the search parties and the media. Lots of snippets of info have been leaked/retracted/disproven and it's been frustrating for everyone involved.

The lack of passport Interpol checks have been highlighted but this may well have been an incidental side issue and nothing to do with losing this flight. I am sure security will improve world over from now on, as will the methods of locating a downed plane in future.

Lessons have been learned, not just by Malaysia but by everyone in the industry.

 

[Carmelita]

In the beginning, yes, I agree, but I also believe they were in over their heads and they didn't know it.

Well, did anyone else in the world, that night or early the next morning, believe that the plane crashed in the Southern Indian Ocean?? No, everyone, including Malaysia AND CHINA, believed it was either in the South China Sea or Bay of Thailand.

I'm not sure that it was a case of the Malaysian officials simply being in over their heads, though I do think that is part of it. I think that they were hoping that it was a simple mechanical failure or pilot error and that the plane would be quickly recovered and they would inform the world of the crash.

My big but, here is, if that scenario is what Malaysian authorities believed to be the case from the beginning, why not mobilize the international community immediately when the plane went off course, or when there was no transmission from the cockpit? It is simply a curious sequence of events to me.

In my mind indicates that the Malaysians had some other scenario playing about in their heads, other than a ordinary plane crash, which is why they did not want to share it immediately with the world. JMO

 

[Prosecution_Rests]

I heard one of the former FBI agent say that they are really waiting to see the technology that was used to determine that how they know beyond a wild guess that the objects seen was of the plane.

America, apparently does not have such superior technology. They would have to do it the "old fashioned" way. See a grainy image on satellite, send out some boats to get it and only then could they analyze the objects to know that it was materials of the plane.

So they either have some groundbreaking technology that America has never even heard about (let alone have) OR they are likely just trying to wrap the case up (sans evidence) and move people's interest off of it.

I'll have to go with the latter for $1000, Alex.

 

[TartLemon]

I voted "I don't know" in the poll. I waffle back and forth about what happened. Sometimes the Close Encounters of the Third Kind opening credits loop through my mind...... the ship appearing in the desert, the WW2 planes in pristine condition.... etc. Crazy.

Then, a bit of paranoia creeps in thinking maybe this was a dry run for some very bad people just trying to prove they can.

Of course, it's a machine running on computers. The slightest deviation or program glitch could have wreaked all kinds of havoc.

Seems like it's too soon for such declarative statements by Malaysia, though. No doubt there's a lot the public is not being told. But still....

I JUST DON'T KNOW. Wish I did so those in mourning could have answers.

:waiting: