Malaysia airlines plane may have crashed 239 people on board #24

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The Telegraph article published a 4 page list of passengers - i have counted & there's 207 listed.
I understood there to be 227 passengers on board - it made me curious & so i asked the question as above.

The original passenger lists are still available to find, and there are passengers missing. And The Telegraph article appears to be in alphabetical order so unsure it's simply a page missing.

It doesn't surprise me if a page is missing, since they released a photo of an Iranian's legs copy/pasted onto another image. :facepalm:

Or ... the information is murky since the beginning of this.

The clues are there.
 
BBM

Just to put the bolded part in perspective......It is a serious contravention/infraction to deviate course or altitude without prior ATC approval without declaring an emergency or as mentioned, receiving ATC approval first.

True, however, in this unique situation, no one asked ATC for clearance to disengage ACARS.
 
It must be international poll day...:)

One for the Aussies now...

AUSTRALIA has already spent millions on the search for the missing Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 — but do most Aussies really believe it will ever be found?

Take our survey below and let us know what you think.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-take-our-survey/story-fniztvng-1226908865757


Here are the poll results, marly, from the Courier Mail/NewsCorp poll.

Apparently 77% of us Aussies don't think the search is in the right area.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...n-the-right-area/story-fnizu68q-1226910365205
 
Found the article at the Malaysian Insider, about how that the pings were not from the Black Box....
Well thus makes sense and a full u-turn on the search case again

" A few months ago, a colleague at the University of Hong Kong mentioned that a great white shark had been tracked all the way
from South Africa to Australia. This came to mind on April 5 when the first ping was detected in the search for Malaysia Airlines
flight MH370 and thought to have come from the airplane’s black boxes."
" pinger transmitters attached to all sorts of marine life from whales to sharks, sea turtles, tuna, seals, swordfish, etc. "
" To cite just one example, the real-time tracking of more than 400 marine animals is listed at www.seaturtle.org/tracking.
"For several decades, pingers with frequencies of 30 to 50kHz have been commonly used to track large, deep ocean animals.
"Location and other data is transmitted to receivers in the ocean or to satellites whenever the animal surfaces. Acoustic pingers
are also widely used as fishing net protectors
"...
"One wonders if, in the eagerness to believe and the absence of any other lead, the authorities directing the search have ignored or downplayed
evidence that is clearly contrary."
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/...s-were-not-from-the-black-box-william-meacham


University of Hong Kong Archaeologist William Meacham wrote: "For several decades, pingers with frequencies of 30 to 50kHz have been
commonly used to track large, deep ocean animals.
"
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/missing-flight-mh370-live-updates-3506557



MSM article by Bloomberg.com published Apr 9, 2014:
"Aircraft black-box pingers, like those from the missing Malaysian jetliner lying somewhere in the depths of the Indian Ocean, emit a sound
signature almost impossible to mimic in nature.
Their standard frequency of 37.5 kilohertz, outside the range of human hearing, and once-a-second tempo were chosen in part to minimize chances
the signals could be mistaken for a marine mammal or another manmade object.
"
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...is-one-thing-finding-them-may-be-another.html


Old MSM CNN Article published April 7, 2014:
"The Chinese Haixun 01 patrol ship detected pulses at a frequency of 37.5 kHz, the Chinese state-run Xinhua news agency reported.
That's the same frequency of black box pingers -- and that frequency is no accident."
"The Haixun 01 reported two pulses within 2 kilometers (1.25 miles) of each other."
"The British ship HMS Echo recorded one event that was determined to be unfounded. The Ocean Shield, an Australian naval vessel equipped
with sophisticated listening equipment, has also detected "an acoustic noise" in another area of the ocean to the north.
According to a CNN calculation, the Australian ship was about 350 miles (565 kilometers) away from the spot where the Chinese ship detected
the pulses. It's also unclear whether the sound the Australian ship detected was related to Flight 370."
"The Chinese said they did not have time to record the pulses, precluding a scientific analysis of the sounds."
"In video of the Haixun 01, it appears the Chinese had a spare pinger in the boat.
Anish Patel, president of pinger manufacturer Dukane Seacom, says it is not recommended to have a pinger near the area where you are trying to listen."
"The hydrophone the Chinese used to detect the pulse is "designed for shallow water applications," not for the deep water, said Thomas Altshuler of
Teledyne Marine Systems, manufacturer of the hydrophone."
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/06/world/asia/mh370-black-box-pings/




More info links about Pingers/Pinger use on Marine mammals:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_dolphin"]Military dolphin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
"A military dolphin is a dolphin trained for military uses. The United States and Soviet militaries have trained and employed oceanic
dolphins for several reasons. Such military dolphins have been trained to rescue lost naval swimmers or to locate underwater mines."
"The dolphins and sea lions are trained by five teams of the Navy's Marine Mammal fleet members. One team specializes in swimmer
detection, three teams in mine location, and another team in object recoveries. "


[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Marine_Mammal_Program"]United States Navy Marine Mammal Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
"MMP animal teams have been deployed for use in combat zones, such as during the Vietnam War and the Iraq War.
The program has been dogged by controversy over the treatment of the animals and speculation as to the nature of its mission and training."
"NMMP dolphins, such as the one pictured here wearing a locating pinger, performed mine clearance work in the Persian Gulf during the Iraq War."


http://www.nrdc.org/wildlife/marine/sonar.asp
"Whales and other marine mammals rely on their hearing for life's most basic functions, such as orientation and communication. Sound is how they find food,
find friends, find a mate, and find their way through the world every day."
"Manmade sound waves can drown out the noises that marine mammals rely on for their very survival, causing serious injury and even death."
"The Navy’s most widely used sonar systems operate in the mid-frequency range. Evidence of the danger caused by these systems surfaced dramatically in 2000, when
whales of four different species stranded themselves on beaches in the Bahamas. Although the Navy initially denied responsibility, the government's investigation
established that mid-frequency sonar caused the strandings."


Article by Los Angeles Times:
"The bright orange pingers look like oversize hot dogs. They are 6 1/2 inches tall and emit an annoying beep that travels
at least 300 feet in water."
http://articles.latimes.com/1997/sep/23/news/mn-35374


NOAA National Oceanic And Atmospheric Administration article:
"Pingers are small acoustic devices Northeastern fishermen are required to attach to their gillnets to reduce marine mammal
bycatch during specific fishing seasons. When a gillnet is submerged underwater, the pingers attached to the net broadcast short, high pitched sounds
or “pings” every four seconds. Those pings are designed to deter harbor porpoises from getting close to the net."
http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/stories/2011/10/07_porpoise_bycatch_prevented.html


Example of Pinger company products:
www.futureoceans.com/
"We collaborate with scientists and researchers in Governments and Universities, helping develop the scientific credibility of using Pingers. "
"Although the use of Pingers is mandated by law in the USA and in Europe, there are many regions around the world that lack the scientific
understanding of Pingers and how and why they reduce marine mammal entanglements in fishing gear."
http://www.futureoceans.com/acoustic-marine-pinger-product-range
Whale Pinger:
"Whale Pingers operate with a 3 kHz (+/- .5 kHz) frequency at 135 dB (+/- 4 dB). Since fitting Future Oceans Whale Pingers to shark nets in Australia in 2010.."
Dolphin Pingers:
"Dolphin Pinger emits a 145 decibel signal, every 4 seconds for 300 m/s."
"The 70 kHz Dolphin Pinger works by emitting a signal that is known to be in the best hearing range of most Dolphin species."
Porpose Pinger:
" Porpoise Pinger of 10 kHz at 132 decibels, emission interval every 4 seconds for 300 m/s are specified in the USA under the National Marine Fisheries Service..."




:notgood:
 
According to Hindustan Times story of MH370 is becoming old news - not trending ?


"Almost for a month after the aircraft vanished, news searches on MH370 dominated internet traffic."
" MH370 is still missing and the story count is down."
"Even in the social media space, discussion around MH370 has waned."
http://www.hindustantimes.com/world...-story-is-off-the-radar/article1-1216909.aspx


"Exactly 2 months on today, the mystery deepens
New search to cost $60m; EASA calls for 20 hours cockpit recording; New search equipment two months away"
http://www.emirates247.com/news/mis...today-the-mystery-deepens-2014-05-07-1.546548


Let's not forget MH370 passengers! :candle:
 
…

Article by Los Angeles Times:
"The bright orange pingers look like oversize hot dogs. They are 6 1/2 inches tall and emit an annoying beep that travels
at least 300 feet in water."
http://articles.latimes.com/1997/sep/23/news/mn-35374


NOAA National Oceanic And Atmospheric Administration article:
"Pingers are small acoustic devices Northeastern fishermen are required to attach to their gillnets to reduce marine mammal
bycatch during specific fishing seasons. When a gillnet is submerged underwater, the pingers attached to the net broadcast short, high pitched sounds
or “pings” every four seconds. Those pings are designed to deter harbor porpoises from getting close to the net."
http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/stories/2011/10/07_porpoise_bycatch_prevented.html


Example of Pinger company products:
www.futureoceans.com/
"We collaborate with scientists and researchers in Governments and Universities, helping develop the scientific credibility of using Pingers. "
"Although the use of Pingers is mandated by law in the USA and in Europe, there are many regions around the world that lack the scientific
understanding of Pingers and how and why they reduce marine mammal entanglements in fishing gear."
http://www.futureoceans.com/acoustic-marine-pinger-product-range
Whale Pinger:
"Whale Pingers operate with a 3 kHz (+/- .5 kHz) frequency at 135 dB (+/- 4 dB). Since fitting Future Oceans Whale Pingers to shark nets in Australia in 2010.."
Dolphin Pingers:
"Dolphin Pinger emits a 145 decibel signal, every 4 seconds for 300 m/s."
"The 70 kHz Dolphin Pinger works by emitting a signal that is known to be in the best hearing range of most Dolphin species."
Porpose Pinger:
" Porpoise Pinger of 10 kHz at 132 decibels, emission interval every 4 seconds for 300 m/s are specified in the USA under the National Marine Fisheries Service..."




:notgood:

That information would lend support to the idea that the signals/sounds picked up by the Ocean Shield were from the black boxes of the plane.

10 kHz and 70 kHz are well outside of the 37.5 kHz used by the black boxes. And a 4 second emission interval is well outside of the one second interval.

Although earlier in your post, you quote a source that says “pingers” with frequencies in the 30-50 kHz range have been used to track marine life, it doesn’t give any specifics regarding the broadcast range (aside from the gill net pingers, which operate at too shallow a depth to be confused with an aircraft pinger), emission interval or typical operational depth.
 
I agree that now we all reserve the right to start over and adjust our theories accordingly. :floorlaugh:


I also agree they should just use a real similar plane and just take a trial run the same expected path and watch the same radar that they used to make their calculations. They should be able to replicate it exactly if their calculations are correct. But without doing that they are still guessing IMO.

Now that they cancelled their air searches my original plan is no longer possible. I would have loved for them to take 10 of those planes and fly arm-to-arm and just fly the expected route to see if they spotted any debris. Once they hit Perth, adjust to the side and fly back north.

Rinse + repeat a few times and they could have checked a lot of water area along the entire route.

This would have accomplished a lot more searching of a critical flight path zone rather than focusing on 1 area at what they think is the landing area.

Yes. I think we, and other people, generally we think, ok they "must" have thought of this or that idea already. Surely they have considered many different ides.

But in reality, only the people in charge of making the decisions actually make the decisions, YKWIM?

That would be the highest-ranking officials in Malaysia, and a few of the highest -ranking in Australia. The ones who actually make the decisions in this search are probably we can count on one hand.

I think it's a mistake for us to think they have all of this " under control," but nevertheless, it's hard NOT to think that way, too.
 

The "scientists" may not believe the frequency, however it wasn't 33.3 khz vs the plane's 37.5 khz.

It was the 37.3 khz being heard as being close to 37.5 khz. that is within published spec.

Typical Malaysian gobblde goop. Can't really trust anything published by them based on the recent past.
 
Wow... that was a very interesting and informative article. Good reasons why the pings are not the black box from the plane.

Very interesting.
 
Wow... that was a very interesting and informative article. Good reasons why the pings are not the black box from the plane.

As I've said before, and I'll say it again; I'm not buying what anyone is saying until I see proof.
 
Yes. I think we, and other people, generally we think, ok they "must" have thought of this or that idea already. Surely they have considered many different ides.

But in reality, only the people in charge of making the decisions actually make the decisions, YKWIM?

That would be the highest-ranking officials in Malaysia, and a few of the highest -ranking in Australia. The ones who actually make the decisions in this search are probably we can count on one hand.

I think it's a mistake for us to think they have all of this " under control," but nevertheless, it's hard NOT to think that way, too.

Yes, but the higher ups get information from the countless number of people below them, and it doesn't help this has been disjointed since the communication breakdown that started with Malaysia dropping the ball.

JMO
 
For several decades, pingers with frequencies of 30 to 50kHz have been commonly used to track large, deep ocean animals. Location and other data is transmitted to receivers in the ocean or to satellites whenever the animal surfaces. Acoustic pingers are also widely used as fishing net protectors, to drive away predators that would steal fish.

This article goes on to list academic sources and suggests that the MH370 'black-box' pings could well have been from a source other than the elusive plane ie a floating net or tagged ocean-going animal.
The information is worth reading even if you don't choose to accept the outcome.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/...s-were-not-from-the-black-box-william-meacham
 
This article goes on to list academic sources and suggests that the MH370 'black-box' pings could well have been from a source other than the elusive plane ie a floating net or tagged ocean-going animal.
The information is worth reading even if you don't choose to accept the outcome.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/...s-were-not-from-the-black-box-william-meacham

My opinions only, no facts here:

I have covered some of this before, but will mention it again.

The ~33 khz signals are also compatible with depth-sounding equipment (used by all sorts of boats and ships) set to transmit 50 to 70 pulses a minute.

The TPL-25 pinger locator has a maximum detection range of one mile from the black box. This statistic is from the U.S. Navy site.

The first signals received were when the TPL-25 was being towed at about 1000 foot depth, i.e. about 13,800 feet above the bottom. This is way more than one mile from a theoretical black box.

If black boxes pinged at 10 khz, they would be detectable from surface to the deepest levels of the world's oceans. However, this change in frequency raises the possibility of confusion with other natural acoustic signals.

The preferred solution is to put a transponder on the black box. The transponder just rests on the ocean bottom using little or no battery power, until contacted by a search ship at the surface.
 
Missing MH370 latest: Exactly 2 months on today, the mystery deepens

The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) said it would propose increasing the recording time on cockpit voice recorders to 20 hours from two to make it easier to understand plane accidents and prevent vital evidence being overwritten.

These include the addition of a new pinger frequency making it easier to locate the recording devices under water, where lower frequencies travel further.

http://www.emirates247.com/news/mis...today-the-mystery-deepens-2014-05-07-1.546548
 
Underwater locator beacon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"... ULB underwater locator beacon (ULB) or underwater acoustic beacon, device fitted to aviation
flight recorders such as the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) and flight data recorder (FDR).
sometimes attached directly to an aircraft fuselage."
"most emit an ultrasonic 10ms pulse once per second at 37.5 kHz ± 1kHz."
"BEA recommended that FDR ULBs' transmission period be increased to 90 days and that
"airplanes performing public transport flights over maritime areas to be equipped with an additional
ULB capable of transmitting on a frequency (for example between 8.5 kHz and 9.5 kHz) and for a
duration adapted to the pre-localisation of wreckage"
"A 37.5 kHz (160.5 dB re 1 μPa) pinger can be detectable 1–2 kilometres (0.62–1.24 mi) from the surface
in normal conditions and
4–5 kilometres (2.5–3.1 mi) in good conditions.
A 37.5 kHz (180 dB re 1 μPa) transponder pinger can be detected 4–5 kilometres (2.5–3.1 mi) in normal
conditions and 6–7 kilometres (3.7–4.3 mi) in good conditions.
Transponder 10 kHz (180 dB re 1 μPa) range is 7–9 kilometres (4.3–5.6 mi) in normal conditions
and 17–22 kilometres (11–14 mi) in good conditions."

Towed pinger locator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Towed pinger locator"
" Since the pinger signal is relatively weak, the hydrophone must be within about
one nautical mile (6,076 feet (1,852 m)) to detect it. The hydrophone is typically
deployed about 1,000 feet (300 m) above the ocean floor, where it can scan a swath
approximately 12,000 feet (3,700 m) wide, on a flat, level surface."

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=79838
"Most pingers transmit every second at 37.5 kHz, although the TPL can detect any pinger transmitting
between 3.5 kHz and 50 kHz at any repetition rate."

FACTS:
Towed Pinger Locator 25
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4300&tid=400&ct=4

"Background
GENERAL SPECIFICATIONS Tow Body Length - 30 inches Diameter - 35 inches Weight -
70 lbs Performance Depth - 20,000 feet of seawater Speed - 1-5 knots"




"China’s state-run media said crews with the patrol ship Haixun 01 had briefly
picked up 37.5 mHz pulses — the same frequency as emitted by an airplane flight data recorder pinger — "
http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-malaysia-flight-china-pinger-20140406-story.html


"An Australian ship scouring the Indian Ocean for missing flight MH370 has detected two further pings consistent with
the plane's two black boxes, in a "great lead", bolstering hopes"
"He said the first two pings - detected on April 5 at 4.45pm and at 9.27pm Perth time - had been analysed by the Australasian Joint Acoustic Analysis Centre, based at HMAS Albatross in Nowra, on the NSW south coast.
"The analysis determined that a very stable, distinct and clear signal was detected at 33.331 kilohertz, and that it consistently pulsed
at a 1.106-second interval," Mr Houston said."
http://www.smh.com.au/national/miss...n-search-for-flight-mh370-20140409-36cif.html



Questions:
If the average pinger is around 37.5 kHz ± 1kHz, as sated by so many sources official websites,
and as reported the Chinese vessel Haixun 01 patrol ship detected pulses at a frequency of 37.5 kHz,
and as reported the Australian Ship only detected signals at 33.331 kHz,
doesen't it seem like the Chinese were much 'closer' to the more accurate kHz ? :facepalm:
 
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