Malaysia airlines plane may have crashed 239 people on board #24

[Mr. Noatak]

Underwater locator beacon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"... ULB underwater locator beacon (ULB) or underwater acoustic beacon, device fitted to aviation
flight recorders such as the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) and flight data recorder (FDR).
sometimes attached directly to an aircraft fuselage."
"most emit an ultrasonic 10ms pulse once per second at 37.5 kHz ± 1kHz."
"BEA recommended that FDR ULBs' transmission period be increased to 90 days and that
"airplanes performing public transport flights over maritime areas to be equipped with an additional
ULB capable of transmitting on a frequency (for example between 8.5 kHz and 9.5 kHz) and for a
duration adapted to the pre-localisation of wreckage"
"A 37.5 kHz (160.5 dB re 1 μPa) pinger can be detectable 1–2 kilometres (0.62–1.24 mi) from the surface
in normal conditions and
4–5 kilometres (2.5–3.1 mi) in good conditions.
A 37.5 kHz (180 dB re 1 μPa) transponder pinger can be detected 4–5 kilometres (2.5–3.1 mi) in normal
conditions and 6–7 kilometres (3.7–4.3 mi) in good conditions.
Transponder 10 kHz (180 dB re 1 μPa) range is 7–9 kilometres (4.3–5.6 mi) in normal conditions
and 17–22 kilometres (11–14 mi) in good conditions."

Towed pinger locator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Towed pinger locator"
" Since the pinger signal is relatively weak, the hydrophone must be within about
one nautical mile (6,076 feet (1,852 m)) to detect it. The hydrophone is typically
deployed about 1,000 feet (300 m) above the ocean floor, where it can scan a swath
approximately 12,000 feet (3,700 m) wide, on a flat, level surface."

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=79838
"Most pingers transmit every second at 37.5 kHz, although the TPL can detect any pinger transmitting
between 3.5 kHz and 50 kHz at any repetition rate."

FACTS:
Towed Pinger Locator 25
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4300&tid=400&ct=4

"Background
GENERAL SPECIFICATIONS Tow Body Length - 30 inches Diameter - 35 inches Weight -
70 lbs Performance Depth - 20,000 feet of seawater Speed - 1-5 knots"




"China’s state-run media said crews with the patrol ship Haixun 01 had briefly
picked up 37.5 mHz pulses — the same frequency as emitted by an airplane flight data recorder pinger — "
http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-malaysia-flight-china-pinger-20140406-story.html


"An Australian ship scouring the Indian Ocean for missing flight MH370 has detected two further pings consistent with
the plane's two black boxes, in a "great lead", bolstering hopes"
"He said the first two pings - detected on April 5 at 4.45pm and at 9.27pm Perth time - had been analysed by the Australasian Joint Acoustic Analysis Centre, based at HMAS Albatross in Nowra, on the NSW south coast.
"The analysis determined that a very stable, distinct and clear signal was detected at 33.331 kilohertz, and that it consistently pulsed
at a 1.106-second interval," Mr Houston said."
http://www.smh.com.au/national/miss...n-search-for-flight-mh370-20140409-36cif.html



Questions:
If the average pinger is around 37.5 kHz ± 1kHz, as sated by so many sources official websites,
and as reported the Chinese vessel Haixun 01 patrol ship detected pulses at a frequency of 37.5 kHz,
and as reported the Australian Ship only detected signals at 33.331 kHz,
doesen't it seem like the Chinese were much 'closer' to the more accurate kHz ? :facepalm:

My opinions only, no facts here:

Yes, the Chinese reported a compatible frequency. However, I believe they were monitoring from very close to the surface of the ocean, so I question whether they could detect a signal from the bottom.

By the way (this was discussed in a much earlier post of mine), the hypothetical maximum 2 to 3 mile detection range of black boxes requires optimum conditions. With a run-down battery and lying at the bottom of the Indian Ocean, I question whether this is an optimum condition.

 

[SouthAussie]

May 9, 2014

NO TO BLACK-BOX STREAMING
Ky however rejected calls by some satellite companies to transmit telemetry data from the cockpit, suggesting black boxes will remain on board for some time to come despite difficulties in finding them whenever a plane crashes in the wilderness.

"Technically it is difficult because of the bandwidth requirements that would be needed to have continuous streaming, plus the costs, so I think this has been abandoned by almost everybody," Ky said.

The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), a U.N. body, has called a meeting of about 40 countries plus representatives of airlines, pilots and regulators to discuss the issue in Montreal on May 12-13.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/23352456/europe-safety-chief-backs-flight-tracking-after-mh370/

 

[Archangel7]

Must be a conspiracy........they have gone back and changed all evidence of 37.3 kHZ to 33.3 kHZ on the internet, except in China.:floorlaugh:

http://update.learnatchina.com/tag/hong-kong

BBM
April 7, Angus Houston, said at a news conference that Ocean Shield was found in a suspected black box signals — frequency of 37.3 kHz, compared with 37.5 kHz standard frequency black box is slightly lower, from China suspected Signal 600 km. Zhang Zhitao photo
Lost to 31 days
Australian search vessel Ocean Shield in the waters twice MH370 suspected wreck found the black box frequency pulse signal in line, respectively, lasted 140 minutes and 13 minutes.
The signal frequency is 37.3 kHz, compared with the standard black box 7.5 kHz frequency 3 is slightly lower, the signal place with the Chinese suspicious signals spaced locations about 600 km.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Flight 370: Philip Wood's Girlfriend Sarah Bajc Got Death Threat

By Henry Austin

The girlfriend of an American passenger aboard missing Flight MH370 told NBC News she has been the victim of two break-ins, a death threat and numerous unsettling phone calls since the jet vanished.

Sarah Bajc received an instant message warning that "I'm going to come and kill you next" about two weeks after the Malaysia Airlines plane disappeared on March 8. Several pornographic images and creepy phone calls were also received from the same China-based number.

Bajc was preparing to move from Beijing to live with passenger Philip Wood, a 50-year-old Texas native and IBM Malaysia employee, in Kuala Lumpur at the time of the tragedy...

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mi...irlfriend-sarah-bajc-got-death-threat-n100446

 

[Soulmagent]

Flight 370: Philip Wood's Girlfriend Sarah Bajc Got Death Threat

By Henry Austin

The girlfriend of an American passenger aboard missing Flight MH370 told NBC News she has been the victim of two break-ins, a death threat and numerous unsettling phone calls since the jet vanished.

Sarah Bajc received an instant message warning that "I'm going to come and kill you next" about two weeks after the Malaysia Airlines plane disappeared on March 8. Several pornographic images and creepy phone calls were also received from the same China-based number.

Bajc was preparing to move from Beijing to live with passenger Philip Wood, a 50-year-old Texas native and IBM Malaysia employee, in Kuala Lumpur at the time of the tragedy...

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mi...irlfriend-sarah-bajc-got-death-threat-n100446

hummm...why would she get death threats? Strange.

 

[ilovepierre]

Hmm. There are 529 habitants on Cocos/Keelings island.

Also, a landing strip thst can land a 777-200.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ck.html

I wonder if it could have possibly landed there...
But would there be a partial handshake if the plane landed?
Hmmm....

 

[ilovepierre]

The "scientists" may not believe the frequency, however it wasn't 33.3 khz vs the plane's 37.5 khz.

It was the 37.3 khz being heard as being close to 37.5 khz. that is within published spec.

Typical Malaysian gobblde goop. Can't really trust anything published by them based on the recent past.

I tend to believe the pings were from the plane's black boxes.
The frequency is set at such so as not to be confused with marine life or subs.
Plus, wasn't the black box on Air France pinging at a frequency that wasn't the normal 37.5?

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

hummm...why would she get death threats? Strange.

Just a guess, but Ms. Bajc has been quite outspoken about the lack of progress in the investigation, the lack of information given to family/friends of the passengers, the lack of transparency by Malaysian officials, etc. There are probably folks who are not pleased with her comments. :moo:

 

[Archangel7]

I tend to believe the pings were from the plane's black boxes.
The frequency is set at such so as not to be confused with marine life or subs.
Plus, wasn't the black box on Air France pinging at a frequency that wasn't the normal 37.5?

BBM

Yes, I believe the reports from the French involved in the Air France case stated the ping was received as a 34 kHz sound wave.

 

[Soulmagent]

Just a guess, but Ms. Bajc has been quite outspoken about the lack of progress in the investigation, the lack of information given to family/friends of the passengers, the lack of transparency by Malaysian officials, etc. There are probably folks who are not pleased with her comments. :moo:

Wouldnt they just kill her then?

Why the threats if they want is for her to shut up ,the only way to do that is well shut her up. No threat needed.


Just pondering the public release of the threat and the motive behind the threats themselves for a second

Most of the time people are given threats for something they have other people want that may be able to be obtained in such a way. Not to them shut .

Possible someone maybe warning her ..like someone knows if she doesnt shut up she could get killed.. I dunno.. seems silly. Lots of people are saying the exact things about this issue surely they know Sarah Bacj isnt going to make all that go away. jmo

 

[Archangel7]

Regardless of the "ping chasing," I'm still troubled by the apparent failure of any of several ELTs emitting a radio distress signal. Seems there are 4 on a triple 7 and I believe they are of two different types.

Just seems odd that none of the ELTs activated on impact/breakup or if they did, none of the SARSAT satellites recorded it.

 

[ilovepierre]

Regardless of the "ping chasing," I'm still troubled by the apparent failure of any of several ELTs emitting a radio distress signal. Seems there are 4 on a triple 7 and I believe they are of two different types.

Just seems odd that none of the ELTs activated on impact/breakup or if they did, none of the SARSAT satellites recorded it.

The ELT's will only activate if they are submerged ABOVE 4 meters.
If the plane went under and sunk to the bottom, the ELT's wouldn't have gone off. Once they are submerged deeper than 4 meters, they are no longer able to work as intended.

 

[Archangel7]

The ELT's will only activate if they are submerged ABOVE 4 meters.
If the plane went under and sunk to the bottom, the ELT's wouldn't have gone off. Once they are submerged deeper than 4 meters, they are no longer able to work as intended.

Yeah, I know they are somewhat fickle under the best conditions.

The thing is, upon an in flight disintegration or an initial impact, they should have activated.

I don't think Boeing has released the make and models installed on MAS 370 and no they aren't intended to work under water, as the acoustic pingers on the FDR and CVR are water activated and for that purpose.

Still troubling that a G force activated ELT or inertia activated ELT apparently didn't activate.

The older ones, 121.5, would sometimes activate on a hard landing.

 

[aa9511]

Yes, but the higher ups get information from the countless number of people below them, and it doesn't help this has been disjointed since the communication breakdown that started with Malaysia dropping the ball.

JMO

But that's only IF the information from the "lower people" is even getting to the higher-ups. I think you hit the nail on the head with the second part of what you said. I think even in the US, there are still problems with communication in big business as well as in government, so surely we cannot expect that in a country like Malaysia, that all the ideas are actually getting to the decision-makers. US businesses are constantly working on this, and it's still not been perfected. Then we think, this is the government, and government of Malaysia - I can only imagine the hinks in the communication there.

This is what I think - I think eventually they will have to give this to a private company to figure out. A private company who will probably have to reach out and get information from a variety of different companies/experts. And then they will try to put all of that information together, again consulting with various experts from all over.

JMO.

 

[ilovepierre]

Yeah, I know they are somewhat fickle under the best conditions.

The thing is, upon an in flight disintegration or an initial impact, they should have activated.

I don't think Boeing has released the make and models installed on MAS 370 and no they aren't intended to work under water, as the acoustic pingers on the FDR and CVR are water activated and for that purpose.

Still troubling that a G force activated ELT or inertia activated ELT apparently didn't activate.

The older ones, 121.5, would sometimes activate on a hard landing.

I don't believe the plane disintegrated mid-air and maybe the ELT's did go off when the plane hit water, but the signal didn't last that long due to the ELT sinking. By the time the search was narrowed down to the area they think the plane may be in, any ELT's could have stopped working.

I don't know if ELT data is sent to Boeing. So if it did go off, would we ever know?

 

[Archangel7]

I don't believe the plane disintegrated mid-air and maybe the ELT's did go off when the plane hit water, but the signal didn't last that long due to the ELT sinking. By the time the search was narrowed down to the area they think the plane may be in, any ELT's could have stopped working.

I don't know if ELT data is sent to Boeing. So if it did go off, would we ever know?

I would guess the media would know if the ELT was activated. That would be a good place to start a search and the reason would be likely reported as to why there.

The ELT signal upon activation, goes to several SAR satellites, then a command center where resources are dispatched. I would think in this case, eventually to an international based location.

I know that NOAA runs SARSAT and is a member of an international SAR program. I don't recall the name. Their(NOAA) satellites receive the ELT signal, notify ground stations and those stations pass the data to the US Mission Control Center in Maryland. It's not an overly simple process however.

I'm not sure of the specific protocol on the International program and how countries cooperate.

 

[SouthAussie]

It's Emergency Locator Transmitter designed to activate in a crash did not send any message.

There were cases in the past when a helicopter or an airplane simply sank like a stone and the beacon didn’t have a chance to activate,” says Cermack, who has extensive experience with search and rescue operations.

It is also possible (probable maybe (?) due to no known upgrades performed by MAS) that the ELTs were working at the no-longer-monitored frequency of 121.5MHz. Newer and upgraded ELTs apparently work at 406MHz.

4 ELTs were delivered with the plane in 2002 .. Boeing has no record of any upgrades to the ELTs. ELTs also require their batteries to be maintained.

Though the 121.5MHz, a standard air-traffic distress communication frequency, can still be used for close-range homing by search aircraft, COSPAS SARSAT ceased monitoring this frequency in 2009.

http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2014/03/flight-mh370-emergency.cfm

 

[Archangel7]

It is also possible (probable maybe (?) due to no known upgrades performed by MAS) that the ELTs were working at the no-longer-monitored frequency of 121.5MHz. Newer and upgraded ELTs apparently work at 406MHz.

4 ELTs were delivered with the plane in 2002 .. Boeing has no record of any upgrades to the ELTs.



http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2014/03/flight-mh370-emergency.cfm

True, likely different Gov. rules for different countries, international vs national etc.

Here a link for some recent mandates
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aviation-international-news/2008-05-02/new-elt-rules-icao

For the second time in three years the international requirements for ELT equipage are changing, but this time the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) promises that while the new rules will ensnare more airplanes than previous requirements, implementing them will be easier than before.

Starting on the rule’s effective date of July 1, private and commercial airplanes operating internationally (outside the U.S.) will need to carry at least one 406-MHz emergency locator transmitter, according to recently adopted ICAO standards. The rule also states that beginning on July 1 one “automatic” 406-MHz ELT must be carried on all international flights by commercial airplanes authorized to carry 19 passengers or fewer and private airplanes of any number of passenger seats that obtain their certificates of airworthiness after July 1. International operations of commercial airplanes authorized to carry more than 19 passengers and issued certificates of airworthiness after July 1 would have to be equipped with at least two 406-MHz ELTs, one of which must be automatic.

Previous ICAO standards called for ELTs only on airplanes operating on extended over-water flights and on flights over designated land areas where search-and-rescue operations pose a special challenge. In essence, the new guidance (ICAO Annex 6, Part II, 6.12) simplifies the rules, first by eliminating language pertaining to over-water or remote-area flights and second by allowing business jet operators to satisfy the requirements by carrying only a single survival 406-MHz ELT, which can be stowed in the cockpit or galley within easy reach of the crew............

 

[ElleElle]

The ELT's will only activate if they are submerged ABOVE 4 meters.
If the plane went under and sunk to the bottom, the ELT's wouldn't have gone off. Once they are submerged deeper than 4 meters, they are no longer able to work as intended.

4 meters? Are you kidding me? In case it crashes in a swimming pool?

:floorlaugh:

 

[ilovepierre]

4 meters? Are you kidding me? In case it crashes in a swimming pool?

:floorlaugh:

:floorlaugh:
I know. It's quite ridiculous!
But that's what the Wiki article says.