Malaysia airlines plane may have crashed 239 people on board #24

[2rose]

What I don't understand is why Inmarsat was contracted to do this.

I explained their relationship in a previous message ...

Malaysia Airlines owns the plane that created the data, therefore legally they own any data the plane creates.

You are right about NATIONS like Australia & the USA stepping up to help Malaysia.

But Inmarsat is a different case because they are involved in an indirect business relationship with Malaysia Airlines.

Inmarsat owns the satellite with NO data in it. They open their doors for a service business by saying if you pay us we will use our satellite to provide tracking data for you. One of their customers is SITA.

Malaysia Airlines owns a fleet that uses ACARS avionics. In order for the ACARS to function, they hire SITA to provide communications via VHF radio & satellite. SITA hires Inmarsat to provide the satellite aspect of the business.

A SITA spokeswoman released a statement that said,
"The Malaysia Airlines ACARS avionics communications via the SITA network is proprietary to the airline".

That means the Airlines owns the data that Inmarsat is "handling".

Since Inmarsat does NOT own the raw data that they are "handling", they WERE obligated to help through their business relationship & committments.

Wouldn't ping handshakes be recorded somewhere?

That is EXACTLY what the Inmarsat raw data is !
Which was recently released publicly.

 

[2rose]

Was thinking that since 370 went missing through the equator, can pings be mirrored? If so, could they be in the opposite direction?

That is what the Northern Arc & Southern Arc are all about.
But mirroring from the satellite position.

 

[2rose]

They are right all right. So right that the search area is now on a different arc. JMO

Haha ... yea we can pick everything apart ... but all Dickinson means is that he right about is the choice of the Southern Arc (as opposed to the Northern Arc). Dickinson is not saying he is right about the so far 7 southern estimates (which could change as new refinements are made).

Personally I would like to see some other scientists evaluate the Southern vs the Northern Arc choice. Because the possibility exists that in developing its analytical theory, Inmarsat may have made an erroneous assumption along the way. Fresh eyes come with different backgrounds & new ideas that could point out a new way of analyzing the raw data.

 

[2rose]

11 June 2014 Australia chooses firm to map sea floor in MH370 search

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau chose a subsidiary of Dutch multinational Fugro to perform the detailed underwater mapping necessary before that phase can begin.

Australia yesterday signed a contract with a private company to map the sea floor around where missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 is believed to have crashed, a crucial step towards continuing an underwater search later this year.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/...-choose-firm-to-map-sea-floor-in-mh370-search

 

[Intermezzo]

2rose

I'd like to say that I really enjoy reading your posts
Thank You!

 

[Intermezzo]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11272124

Mapping firm joins search for MH370

Fugro Survey, a deep-water survey company, is the first private contractor to be hired as the search enters its next phase and begins hunting underwater across an expanded zone covering 62,160sq km.

"The bathymetric survey will provide a map of the underwater search zone, charting the contours, depths and composition of the sea floor in water depths up to 6000m," the Joint Agency Coordination Centre said.

 

[Elainera]

2rose

I'd like to say that I really enjoy reading your posts
Thank You!

I second that! :seeya:

 

[Elainera]

You are right in that if the passengers were incapacitated by hypoxia they could not have used their cell phones, however, that said, hypoxia could not have affected pings from their phones while crossing the land mass. I have heard nothing reported about any pinging from the passengers cell phones. I call that very strange.

I remember talking heads were discussing this long ago (April or May) on CNN and said that the plane was flying too high for any phone to be able to ping towers even when flying over land.

 

[2rose]

2rose

I'd like to say that I really enjoy reading your posts
Thank You!

Thanks to all for the kind thoughts

 

[2rose]

I remember talking heads were discussing this long ago (April or May) on CNN and said that the plane was flying too high for any phone to be able to ping towers even when flying over land.

I remember that too

 

[Mr. Noatak]

I remember talking heads were discussing this long ago (April or May) on CNN and said that the plane was flying too high for any phone to be able to ping towers even when flying over land.

My opinions only, no facts here:

Unfortunately, the purported 9-11 cell phone calls from various doomed aircraft in the U.S. 2001 terror incident turned the issue of cell phone performance at altitude into a political argument, to this day.

I read a scientific article that explained succinctly why there are essentially no sustained communications between a cell phone in a plane at more than 8000 feet above ground level and and ground-based towers. Interesting, but according to summitpost.org, cell phones work for at least some distance above 14,200 feet on Mount McKinley in Alaska. Of course, service will be unreliable there because cell towers are very scarce in the wilderness. In 2007, a climber at the top of Mount Everest (29,000 feet) successfully sent a cell phone text message through the tower at Rongbuk, China (16,000 feet). Can you make a sustained cell-phone connection with a tower from altitude differentials far greater than 14,000 feet? Probably not, for reasons explained below. But can a cell tower acquire your position (handshake/ping) when you are far more than 14,000 feet above the tower? In some cases, yes.

Regarding cell phone calls from aircraft, there is nothing magically-wrong about being at 35,000 feet, as long as the cell tower is no more than 22 to 45 miles away from you (the useful ranges of towers vary by configuration and design), and the tower is not directly under your position or is its dish tilted too-steeply downwards. At high altitude, you always have line-of-sight with towers, which is the ideal situation for maximum range communication. But I have learned from pilot reports on the internet that cell phones only occasionally make contact with a tower when the plane is at 35,000 to 39,000 feet. So, what is the problem? The problem is not that your high altitude is magically preventing all contact with the tower. The problem is actually threefold:

1) from the airplane you can typically detect many towers at the same time. This wreaks havoc, hogs the system, and leads to dropped calls.
2) you are changing position at a speed of hundreds of miles per hour. New towers are constantly detectable, magnifying the problem described above.
3) if the tower dishes are tilted towards earth, your signal at great altitude may be weak to non-existent.

The claim that the First Officer's cell phone (on MH 370) connected with a tower conveniently supports the westward turn and track of the plane, and also supports that the plane deliberately moved to lower altitudes (14,000 feet or lower, based upon my above information). Interestingly, ground witnesses generally report that the plane was lower than normal and noisier than usual. But none of this changes my previously-posted opinions by one whit: if the First Officer's cell phone could contact/ping a tower, so could any other active cell phone/device on the plane. The passengers and crew did not have to be conscious- their devices would not stop working from a lack of oxygen- their devices only had to be left on by mistake or on purpose.

Sleuth On!

 

[Momoffourboys]

A DAP lawmaker’s attempt to discover more on the military radar which detected flight MH370 came to a halt when Parliament rejected his query on grounds that it is “secret”. - See more at: http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/...h-spotted-mh370#sthash.A4LdtQfF.Txgu9P9u.dpuf

Bukit Mertajam MP Steven Sim Chee Keong asked the Defence Minister to state the base which had detected the plane and the name of the company that supplied and maintained the radar.

Sim (pic) also asked if there were any follow-up actions on the lack of emergency response in the early hours when the aircraft went missing.



Parliament secretary Datuk Roosme Hamzah, however, rejected the questions, saying questions cannot be centred on matters of "secrecy".
"This is an international worldwide crisis. It is no longer a secret. Our failures must be admitted and then amended," Sim told a press conference at the Parliament lobby later.

- See more at: http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/...h-spotted-mh370#sthash.A4LdtQfF.Txgu9P9u.dpuf

 

[CARIIS]

A DAP lawmaker’s attempt to discover more on the military radar which detected flight MH370 came to a halt when Parliament rejected his query on grounds that it is “secret”. - See more at: http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/...h-spotted-mh370#sthash.A4LdtQfF.Txgu9P9u.dpuf

Bukit Mertajam MP Steven Sim Chee Keong asked the Defence Minister to state the base which had detected the plane and the name of the company that supplied and maintained the radar.

Sim (pic) also asked if there were any follow-up actions on the lack of emergency response in the early hours when the aircraft went missing.



Parliament secretary Datuk Roosme Hamzah, however, rejected the questions, saying questions cannot be centred on matters of "secrecy".
"This is an international worldwide crisis. It is no longer a secret. Our failures must be admitted and then amended," Sim told a press conference at the Parliament lobby later.

- See more at: http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/...h-spotted-mh370#sthash.A4LdtQfF.Txgu9P9u.dpuf

Webslueth [FONT=&quot]Extraordinaire[/FONT]

is awarded to:

​

Momofffourboys


For locating the first use word of the word “secret" [FONT=&quot]in a story related to MAL 370!

Congratulations! Keep on sleuthing!
[/FONT]

 

[CARIIS]

Haha ... yea we can pick everything apart ... but all Dickinson means is that he right about is the choice of the Southern Arc (as opposed to the Northern Arc). Dickinson is not saying he is right about the so far 7 southern estimates (which could change as new refinements are made).

Personally I would like to see some other scientists evaluate the Southern vs the Northern Arc choice. Because the possibility exists that in developing its analytical theory, Inmarsat may have made an erroneous assumption along the way. Fresh eyes come with different backgrounds & new ideas that could point out a new way of analyzing the raw data.

and south is water!

North has far more implications, now doesnt it!

 

[CARIIS]

-Definition of conspiracy=a secret plan.
The action of plotting. According to MAL govt in the first week they referred to the action, in the MSM as “nefarious”.

Same stuff different words. IMO

What has bemused since week two is the media smirking and stating some “conspiracy” theories out there are referring to “remote controlled” aircraft. As if it is farfetched Star Wars stuff.

The reality here is , on a daily basis , from thousands of miles apart we are controlling drones, with pinpoint accuracy all over the globe. 24/7.

The technology is there, as been there, and is used often.

What is so “incredible” about that- it is a fact. FACT. That capability. The capacity to do so has been effectively utilized for years.

The technology to remote control a toy car , and a bigger one is not different.

What is the difference between this and any other plane? The bottom three are drones!

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1551395/thumbs/o-LARGE-*advertiser censored*-DRONE-570.jpg?1






https://www.google.com/search?q=large+drone&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=zr-ZU9mRIJe3sATl6IGICQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1088&bih=506#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=FoZb0XsiI0kUPM%253A%3BR6PdGaaWaL1VkM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi.huffpost.com%252Fgen%252F1551395%252Fthumbs%252Fo-LARGE-*advertiser censored*-DRONE-570.jpg%253F1%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%252F2014%252F01%252F08%252Ftriton-drone-huge-boeing-757-us-navy_n_4562529.html%3B570%3B427

https://www.google.com/search?q=lar...contractor-bested-pentagon%2F66797%2F;710;325





………..

 

[geevee]

Kuala Lumpur: Investigators probing the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines MH370 piloted an identical Boeing 777-200 on the missing plane's suspected flight path, in a re-enactment confirming their belief that it banked west, a senior Malaysian military official said Sunday.

The re-enactment, staged in recent days, was aimed at determining whether the radar and satellite data that it generated matches up with data on MH370's flight

"The idea of the flight was to find out the possible direction the missing plane could have gone," the official, who is closely involved in the investigation, told AFP on condition of anonymity.

The official said the new findings generated data identical to that which is believed to show the missing airliner turned from its intended flight path across the South China Sea, doubled back across Malaysia, and then veered northwest toward the Andaman Sea.

The plane was flown on the same course, including zig-zag moves possibly intended to avoid civilian radar.

"The plane was flown exactly how the missing plane flew based on military radar data. It did a turn-around, flew across the Malaysian peninsula and up north," the official said.
"That is why we can conclusively say which two possible directions the plane flew and we have now refocused our search and rescue operations to these two new areas."

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/i...s-flight-path-official-496354?curl=1395010605

and south is water!

North has far more implications, now doesnt it!

Yes, and in their re-enactment (copied above from the Theory thread) they confirmed (BBM) that it did go north. :facepalm:

 

[ilovepierre]

Ironically, MH370 vanished at beginning of Crimea take over.

Electronic warfare would not surprise me. This world is crazy.

JMO

That possibility crossed my mind briefly at the beginning of this case.
The plane's disappearance took the world's focus off of the Crimea/Russia situation and on MH370 instead.

:scared:

 

[2rose]

You are right in that if the passengers were incapacitated by hypoxia they could not have used their cell phones, however, that said, hypoxia could not have affected pings from their phones while crossing the land mass. I have heard nothing reported about any pinging from the passengers cell phones. I call that very strange.

Here is one article about MH370 cell phone connectivity ...

http://mashable.com/2014/03/17/malaysia-mh370-cellphones-connected/

The search for flight MH370 continues, but isn't getting much help from modern-day mobile technology ...

It’s estimated that one in five people around the world now owns a smartphone. By that measure, we can safely assume that roughly 50 people on that flight were carrying data-capable smartphones. Add in feature phones, and the number of mobile devices on MH370 probably grows significantly.

A recent Consumer Electronics Association Study reported that 30% of flyers forget to power-down their devices during take-off and landing. So it’s fair to assume that at least some small percentage of flight MH370 passengers may have had their phones on for the duration of the flight. It’s also possible that others powered up their phones when the plane diverted course.

Experts, however, are less certain.

The limits of cell tower technology

Which leads to the possibility that cellphones onboard flight MH370 were pinging cell towers (looking for a network signal) on the ground.

It’s true, smartphones in the air can connect with cell towers on the ground. These towers, depending on technology (GSM, CDMA), have a range of connectivity that goes up to miles. GSM tops out at about 21 miles. Plus, it only takes one tower to achieve connectivity.

Of course, when you’re flying on an airplane, said tech and wireless analyst Jeff Kagan, “you’re connecting from cell tower, to cell tower, to cell tower very quickly,” and that’s assuming you’re flying relatively low and over densely populated cities.

However, if you look at the embedded ESRI map, you’ll note that the population densities for most of MH370’s flight path are relatively low. This is critical because the cell providers that operate in those areas, China Mobile and Celcom, would naturally add more towers in densely populated areas, where the bandwidth needs are greatest, and, probably, worry less about cell coverage for largely uninhabited areas.

So the number of available opportunities for a cell phone to connect to a tower are lower than what Americans are familiar with.

 

[2rose]

IIRC the media reported that an unnamed telecommunications company had received an attempt from someone to use the co-pilot's phone. However, I do not recall that the authoritaties ever confirmed that as a fact ... If so, please share a reference.

I found an article which mentioned an anonymous U.S. official confirming that the co-pilot's cell phone did ping a tower ... but apparently any attempted phone call was only media sensationalism.

This piece of info was supposed to have been passed along by Malaysian investigators ... so if we wonder why any cell phone info is not being released publicly, it seems to be more of the Malaysian policy for secrecy rather than transparency.

Just like American analysta are now saying that there was no reason that the Malaysians could not have released the raw data months ago. It was only after so much push from the victims families, that brought about the raw satellite data release.

http://www.kalb.com/story/25241939/cell-tower-confirms-radar-data-that-plane-mh370-turned-around

A U.S. official with firsthand knowledge of the investigation told CNN's Pamela Brown on Monday that a cell phone tower in Penang, Malaysia -- about 250 miles from where the flight -- disappeared detected the co-pilot's phone searching for service around the time the plane vanished.

The revelation follows reporting over the weekend in a Malaysian newspaper that co-pilot Fariq Abdul Hamid had tried to make a telephone call while the plane was in flight.

However, the U.S. official - who cited information shared by Malaysian investigators --
said there was no evidence the co-pilot had tried to make a call.

The details do appear to reaffirm suggestions based on radar and satellite data that the plane turned around and was likely flying low enough to obtain a signal from a cell tower, the official said.

 

[2rose]

I wonder why the Americans don't use their advanced technological gadgetry to find the many cellphones on MH370 ???

This following article seems to be from the Russian media ...
I note it mentions REUTERS, which I know is Main Stream Media, so I hope it is ok to link to it.

http://rt.com/news/163624-phone-nsa-snowden-remotely/

NSA can easily bug your switched-off iPhone ...

It is not news that American (and possibly not only American) special services have been able to use mobile phones as a spying tool for at least a decade.

Back in 2006, media reported that the FBI applied a technique known as a "roving bug" which allowed them to remotely activate a cell phone's microphone & listen to nearby conversations.

Pinpointing a person's location to within just a few meters has not been a problem either thanks to a tracking device built into mobile phones. This option, a party-spoiler for criminals, has also been helpful in finding people who have gone missing or got into trouble. The general belief has been that removing a battery would make tracking impossible.

In July last year, Washington Post wrote that "By September 2004, a new NSA technique enabled the agency to find cellphones even when they were turned off."

The agency used it to help American forces in Iraq. Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) called the method "The Find," & "it gave them thousands of new targets, including members of a burgeoning al-Qaeda-sponsored insurgency in Iraq," the paper wrote.

It is very likely that the scale of the use of such techniques has grown much bigger & more sophisticated due to SciTech developments. & with millions of people getting addicted to their smartphones - which they carry with them literally everywhere - it is much easier to spy on them.

About the bolded part above ... the article doesn't specifically state whether this method is reliant on available cell phone towers ... which is a problem in the case of MH370. However I would think that same problem existed in the Iraq example cited. Another problem might be whether the Americans need to get authorization from Malaysia to go into their country & use this type of technology in a high profile case.