Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #1

[newone]

:goodpost:

Mr Bartsch said that while bodies like the International Air Transport Association issued advisories and warnings from time to time, incidents like MH17 “really hit home that it is up to individual airlines to continually monitor and assess the risk on a daily basis”.

Ultimately it was up to the airlines themselves to determine whether potential hazards on their routes were within “an acceptable level of safety”, he said.
Mr Bartsch said there had been instances, such as a volcano eruption in Chile, when Australian airlines had chosen not to fly even though the airspace was declared safe by authorities.

“You can use the analogy of a policeman can’t be there to tell you when to cross the road and when not to,” he said. “It is up to the individual, in the case of airlines, to make that assessment.”


http://www.smh.com.au/business/avia...raine-route-20140718-zuilw.html#ixzz37peoVWLs

 

[Isabelle]

CNN juwst reported a few minutes ago that separatists took 36 bodies away with them and also removed communication equipment from the local rescuers

Concern as to where they are taking the bodies. Why remove communication equipment?

 

[ilovepierre]

I love planes and have been a plane spotter for about 20 years. I used to be looking at the sky with binoculars trying to see what type of plane and what airline was flying up up in the sky. Not anymore! With my flightradar24 app on my iPhone. not only can you look at a map of all aircraft in the skies but I just need to point my phone to the sky and it shows all commercial airplanes within range of me, and the distance from me. And at the click of a tab it will tell you all the flight details of whichever plane you click on.

I can do a similar thing with Siri on my phone.
I just say "Planes overhead" and she'll pull up all planes flying above me, and their flight details.

 

[gngr~snap]

Concern as to where they are taking the bodies. Why remove communication equipment?

I have a really bad feeling about this. Really bad.
I hope I am wrong.

All posts are MOO.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

The Ukrainian government says it has evidence three people were operating the missile launcher that brought down the plane.
According to the Ukrainian government, one of those arrested has documents suggesting he had expertise in missile technology.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-...e-tough-task-in-ukraine-plane-inquiry/5608814

People have been arrested?

 

[SilkySifaka]

The Ukrainian government says it has evidence three people were operating the missile launcher that brought down the plane.
According to the Ukrainian government, one of those arrested has documents suggesting he had expertise in missile technology.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-...e-tough-task-in-ukraine-plane-inquiry/5608814

People have been arrested?

I would arrest anyone who was deemed to be operating it, they are guilty of war drimes imo

 

[Isabelle]

I have a really bad feeling about this. Really bad.
I hope I am wrong.

All posts are MOO.

So am I.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I would arrest anyone who was deemed to be operating it, they are guilty of war drimes imo

Oh agree, first I've heard of it is all .. wonder who specifically .. looking for reports, you'd think this would be the headline of the day though wouldn't you?

ABC: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-...s-missile-expert-arrested-near-border/5608744

 

[inthedark14]

"It basically looks like the biggest crime scene in the world right now, guarded by a bunch of guys in uniform with heavy firepower who are quite inhospitable," Michael Bociurkiw, spokesman for the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe team, told CNN's Christiane Amanpour.
"And there didn't seem to be anyone really in control, for example. One of our top priorities was to find out what happened to the black boxes. No one was there to answer those questions."

"The perimeter is not secure whatsoever," he said. "They seemed to have put some tape up where we were standing. But, otherwise, it's very easy for anyone, really, to walk in there and tamper with evidence or debris. So a lot of work needs to be done. A lot of professional work, very very quickly."

Read More: http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/18/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

It is truly horrifying and disgusting that these soldiers/militia/whatever they are will not let the people who are trained to deal with disasters of this magnitude into the crash scene. The victims of this tragedy at the very least deserve the respect of having their mortal remains cared for by people who know what they are doing. These are people, men women and children that have been lying in those fields since yesterday. It is inexcusable the disrespect for the human lives lost.

It scares the crapola out of me also that the very people that could tell the world what happened to that plane are not allowed in. How is this ok?

 

[CARIIS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPtDy18Nk5I

 

[revampz]

The picture and it's context were confirmed by the major press agencies (afp, nbc)
The militia were picking through belongings at a crash site.

What happened to the passports, the credit cards, the money and valuables that were on the site?
Nobody knows because the militia did not allow access to OSCE.

Hi still catching up, but early yesterday morning (our time) when this story broke, they were showing pictures of the locals going through the rubble, and armed rebels standing around.....my husband and I both said the same thing: families wont be getting back personal possessions without a battle they'll be taken, also not good the rebels being there first going through taking stuff before anyone from the outside could get there. It was just on a news right now that there has been looting. This is a poor area so I have no doubt this is going on....

 

[2rose]

When compared to 10 previous flights, this map shows that the route of MH17
was slightly different ... being more northerly.

This map comes from this article which makes it sound like the pilot made a bad decision changing the route, because he was concerned about the military conflict in that area ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tists-shot-missile-McCain-warns-Hell-pay.html

Did MH17 pilot divert INTO the danger zone? Aviation expert claims captain made last-minute change of course over Ukraine because he 'felt uncomfortable'

... The pilot of MH17 radioed that he 'felt uncomfortable' about the route he was flying while over Ukraine and fatally altered his course to hostile territory, according to an expert.

HOWEVER elsewhere, I have read that the route change was made due to existing bad weather conditions ... so that doesn't make it sound so culpable. And I would think that the crew discussed which route was the best to take in their given circumstances.

MH370 had one pilot & one co-pilot ... does anyone know why MH17 had 2 pilots & 2 co-pilots ?
Wondering if the extra crew is a safety precaution implemented after the March disappearance ?

 

[Snick1946]

BBM

'Igor Girkin, a local pro-Russian military commander who had appeared to acknowledge his forces shot down the Boeing 777 in a Facebook posting later deleted, was tonight quoted in the Russian media suggesting that the jet had been deliberately loaded with corpses and crashed to damage the rebel cause.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...the-gruesome-scene-for-survivors-9615895.html

For heaven's sake. First a soldier told a BBC producer the Queen of England was responsible, now the commander is suggesting all the nations of the victims are involved in some vast conspiracy, pretending their citizens are dead when really the plane was only carrying corpses.

These men are an embarrasment to their cause, and their nation, whatever it is. In my opinion.

That actually sounds a lot like some of the stuff I have actually seen being posted by apparent Russians or at least Ukrainian Russians on Yahoo discussion boards. I usually do not engage on those things but the past day I have gotten into flame wars with these people. Most seem young and very angry at the West. They think Putin is marvelous and seem to think nothing at all about the victims. it is all a 'plot' by 'fascists' to frame Russia. They also think those of us posting with horror at what happened are being paid by officials in the Ukraine. I have yet to see any Russian expressing sorrow at this tragedy. Not once.

 

[jjenny]

View attachment 55148

When compared to 10 previous flights, this map shows that the route of MH17
was slightly different ... being more northerly.

This map comes from this article which makes it sound like the pilot made a bad decision changing the route, because he was concerned about the military conflict in that area ...



HOWEVER elsewhere, I have read that the route change was made due to existing bad weather conditions ... so that doesn't make it sound so culpable. And I would think that the crew discussed which route was the best to take in their given circumstances.

MH370 had one pilot & one co-pilot ... does anyone know why MH17 had 2 pilots & 2 co-pilots ?
Wondering if the extra crew is a safety precaution implemented after the March disappearance ?

If pilot was concerned about military conflict in the area, he absolutely went the wrong way, because he flew right on top of rebel controlled area.
I also heard it was because of the weather that the route was changed.

 

[time]

If pilot was concerned about military conflict in the area, he absolutely went the wrong way, because he flew right on top of rebel controlled area.
I also heard it was because of the weather that the route was changed.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/mh17s-flight-path-area-fighting/

Earlier this week a Ukrainian fighter jet and transport airplane were shot down in the same area. Yet, it was still technically legal though for MH17 to be flying there.Even though it was legal, the flight path was above hostile fighting. O’Brien explained cost and time issues play a role in determining flight paths which might be why this one was chose.

....O’Brien pointed out that although the air space was frequently used and MH17 was at a regular altitude, there is always the chance a plane could lose air compression or another problem that would require it to drop to around 10,000 feet. That kind of action could easily have been interpreted as threatening.
“It was a conscious decision by the airlines to fly this route. Whether they were trying to save fuel or get to their destination as quickly as possible – that shouldn’t compromise safety,” said O’Brien. “I hope the lesson has been unfortunately learned here.”

 

[Snick1946]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...t-take-off_n_5598230.html?utm_hp_ref=uk&ir=UK

Huffington Post has posted a video taken by a passenger as the doomed aircraft was loading. Very sad..

 

[Mrs G Norris]

A claims lawyer once told me 10% of the blame always lies with the victim (Malaysia Air in this case), for being there.

 

[time]

A claims lawyer once told me 10% of the blame always lies with the victim (Malaysia Air in this case), for being there.

Maybe if I lived in Europe I would be more cognizant of a flight's path due to this conflict. However, I was just thinking I'd never in my wildest dreams think if I flew from one relatively safe country to another that I'd be on a plane going over a war zone.

 

[Lyra500]

They would have died or passed out right away from lack of oxygen.

I am afraid I do not think that is true (death) and even if they passed out at first, I do not think they necessarily stayed that way.

A teenage boy survived a flight from the US to Hawaii hiding in the 'plane's landing gear. The 'plane was flying at 38,000 feet.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/21/us/hawaii-plane-stowaway/index.html

As unlikely as it sounds, officials believe the boy rode in a tiny, cramped compartment for almost five hours, at altitudes that reached 38,000 feet, without oxygen and in subzero temperatures

So this was someone remaining in sub-zero temperatures and depleted oxygen for hours and surviving. I accept that he must have been unconscious - that was because he would have remained at high altitude for the bulk of the flight.

Sadly, passengers falling out of a 'plane may be extremely cold and oxygen depleted at the start, but they are falling towards the earth at around 120mph, so the air is getting warmer and the oxygen more abundant as they fall. Nothing about the actual falling is life-threatening or likely to make a person unconscious, so as I understand things, sadly they may well actually regain consciousness even if they lost it when first coming out of the 'plane. The thing that kills passengers is blunt force trauma from hitting the earth or the water in most cases, or possibly from trauma caused by coming into contact with bits of the 'plane.

This is from a forum and is a quote about victims of the Lockerbie air crash:

I asked a cousin, an Air Force officer, what the victims of the Lockerbie/Pan Am bombing would have experienced. It's not fun:

The bomb used to take down the jet was fairly small -- just large enough to cripple the plane but not large enough to kill many people. He estimated that anywhere from 10%-25% of the passengers would have been killed by the blast or the break-up of the jet. A majority of passengers would have survived the explosion. Due to hypoxia they would probably begin to lose consciousness quite quickly, but only for about a minute. By then, they'd be at a lower altitude where they would regain consciousness. They would still have another 3 or 4 minutes of free fall where they'd be perfectly aware of what was happening to them. Many of them were still belted into their seats when found on the ground.

I realise that is not what everyone wants to think, but I genuinely do not think there are any credible scientific reasons why the passengers should just lose consciousness and remain unconscious and pain free in this situation, however comforting that might be.

Edit - just saw the link to an article in the DM claiming the missile would have damaged the plane so comprehensively that the passengers would have died instantly. This is a comforting thought, but he states that the missile strike would have 'shredded' the plane - I don't see how any of the bodies could have remained intact in that case, and at least some of them have. Also, from another post in here, (tragically) a foreign correspondent describes seeing a passenger strapped into their seat with a face 'frozen in fear' so I fear at least some of the passengers may have been conscious for much longer than we would hope.

I think an added trauma for the families must be the total shambles at the crash site. I would be beside myself knowing that my loved ones were just lying about with no proper professional salvage exercise ongoing. If this crash was anywhere else in Europe, retrieval of bodies and transfer to a proper morgue would have started as soon as possible - certainly within 24 hours. Not wanting to be even more gruesome than I have been - but people want to say goodbye to their loved ones - leaving them unrefrigerated will make this more and more difficult. I think all those poor people are still lying where they fell. Then there are random locals wandering around rifling through their things - those pictures of people standing on the fuselage and generally having a good old nose just seemed so disrespectful.

 

[Irisha]

I'm sick of CNN "talking heads" bs. I can't remember the 2 guys names, . They are so PUSHING an accident theory. ok , fine, if you have any passengers planes that can fly above, never shoot a missile, you could be wrong. How hard is that? These 2 men are pissing me off the last 2 days. It's NOT an accident. Richard Quest go back and report on the royals. :facepalm: