Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #2

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Trident said:
LOL. That, my dear is a wonderful question. Read what both sides, all sides are saying. There are enough lies here to go around. Then, take the most blatant ones, the ones that "our" side wants to hear, but take them with a grain of salt. After that, listen to the lies from the people we are supposed to hate, but take them with a grain of salt. After that, take an emetic because you will have salt poisoning.

As far as I can tell, they/ALL if them are lying to one degree or another. Truth is slippery, sleek like velvet. It feels good, fits right, hangs true. But all that glitters is not gold, nor velvet, or even true. One is so much better off testing every word.

I believe other planes have disappeared, been blown out of the sky. Truth was one of the un-named victims, yet lies are written in history books.

In my opinion, of course.
Click to expand...

In other words, "Wake up people! We are being fed the same propaganda from OUR MSM that others say only happen in other regions"

Am I close? Great post.
 
Atlantic Council.org on Alexander Borodai, "prime minister" of the Donetsk People's Republic.

Spoilers Alert: He's 100% Russian and a man of letters too.

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blog...-builds-greater-russia-one-province-at-a-time

As leaders of the secessionist uprising in Ukraine’s Donetsk province go public this month, they turn out to be from Moscow, not Donetsk. Alexander Borodai, named last week as the “prime minister” of the Donetsk People’s Republic, is not only Muscovite, he’s been famous for years at the extreme-right fringe of Russian politics. He has argued publicly that Russia must dismantle Ukraine and absorb its people to boost Russia’s stagnant population en route to restoring a Russian Orthodox empire over as much as a sixth of the world.

So for Borodai, it is inconsequential that he is an outsider helping to foment insurgencies in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. He happily confirmed to reporters at a press conference last week his Russian citizenship, Moscow home address and Russianizing mission. He’s a “political consultant” who specializes in “resolving” ethnic conflicts, he explained, and his most recent assignment was to help in Russia’s seizure of power in Crimea.

....

For years, Borodai edited Zavtra, Russia’s most extreme right-wing newspaper, and since 1996 has written 156 articles for the paper, extolling the virtues of tsarism, Russian superiority and orthodoxy.

BBM
 
'Ukrainian security forces have released an audio of what is alleged to be a series of intercepted phone call between the Oleksandr Serhiyovych, the leader of rebel fighter unit Vostok Battalion, and another rebel, identified only as Andriy. The conversations suggest that the rebels may already be in possession of up to three of the boxes '

“The boxes must be under our control,” says the voice purported to be Serhiyobych. “Our friends from high above are very interested in the fate of the ‘black boxes’. I mean people from Moscow”.

The newly released video is also at the link. I'm not sure how to post it here.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...a-live-updates#block-53cbd71fe4b0f8fc11b98138
 
JLSChook said:
In other words, "Wake up people! We are being fed the same propaganda from OUR MSM that others say only happen in other regions"

Am I close? Great post.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree with that. I take anything written in the press here or elsewhere on this issue with a grain of salt. I posted this earlier, but there are lots of pressure to view this one or the other and I only hope our own president stays out of it

http://time.com/3005575/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-politics/
 
On the Ukraine English News site forums, where they are translating Ukraine news reports, they say rebel leaders and 20 units have abandoned Lugansk and been recalled to Russia - after extensively damaging the town

If this is happening, it makes me think that maybe that would be a reason for the delay in handing over victims - while people's attention is on that train, people who might be responsible slip quietly away?
I fear crucial parts of the plane may have gone with them too.
 
@maxseddon - 1h 37m



Putin would have a strong libel case against the entire British press in a London court #MH17
http://t.co/maU4T4NBsf

epuhy4uj.jpg



http://t.co/oJ52ZkLVD9

http://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/490914453274128384

----

Wow!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Been following but not posting... Are people seriously in favor of going to war with Russia over this?

If European nations want to act then let them do it (and I don't know enough about the Netherlands' media to say whether the aggressive article translated earlier is indeed representative of that country's collective attitude, or whether it is just a hawkish publication in general), and I doubt a majority of European citizens would be in favor since the repercussions would be quite dire (unlike Americans, who are over here, across the big water, where we can "safely" cheerlead the west into yet another war we do not need).

Might I also note how short a memory the US public has, and how glad I am that no one started military action when we shot the Iranian civilian airliner out of the sky, killing all on board, back in the late 80s?? :facepalm:


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PM David Cameron's (@David_Cameron) Facebook post - 11h

David Cameron
11 hrs ·
Like the horror of Lockerbie in 1988 when I was a young man, the images of the burnt-out Malaysian plane, 298 victims and their personal effects strewn across the wheatfields and villages around Grabovo in eastern Ukraine will never leave me.

Ten of our own citizens died; we grieve for them this weekend. So too did 27 Australians, including members of a family who had previously lost relatives on flight MH370; 43 Malaysians and 192 Dutch citizens also died — a huge blow to our friends and allies. We stand shoulder to shoulder with those countries and with all those affected by this outrage.

But alongside our sympathy there is also anger. Anger that this could happen; anger that a conflict that could have been stopped by Moscow has been fomented by Moscow; anger that some in the West, instead of finding the resolve to deal with this issue, have simply hoped it would go away.

We must establish the full facts of what happened. But the growing weight of evidence points to a clear conclusion: that flight MH17 was blown out of the sky by a surface-to-air missile fired from a rebel-held area.

If this is the case then we must be clear what it means: this is a direct result of Russia destabilising a sovereign state, violating its territorial integrity, backing thuggish militias and training and arming them.

We must turn this moment of outrage into a moment of action. Action to find those who committed this crime and bring them to justice. But this goes much wider than justice.

In Europe we should not need to be reminded of the consequences of turning a blind eye when big countries bully smaller countries. We should not need reminding of the consequences of letting the doctrine of “might is right” prevail. We should not need to be reminded of the lessons of European history.

But we do. For too long there has been a reluctance on the part of too many European countries to face up to the implications of what is happening in eastern Ukraine.

Sitting around the European Council table on Wednesday evening I saw that reluctance at work again.

Some countries, with Britain at the forefront, have consistently pushed for action that reflects the magnitude of the long-term threat. They tend to be the countries with the closest physical proximity to Russia and the most direct experience of what is at stake. Their own independence and nationhood have come at a high price. They never forget it. But others seem more anxious to make this a problem to be managed and contained, not a challenge to be met and mastered.

Elegant forms of words and fine communiqués are no substitute for real action. The weapons and fighters being funnelled across the border between Russia and eastern Ukraine; the support to the militias; the half-truths, the bluster, the delays. They have to stop.

Some international crises are insoluble. Not this one. If President Vladimir Putin stops the support to the fighters in eastern Ukraine and allows the Ukrainian authorities to restore order, this crisis can be brought to an end. Of course there must be proper protections for Russian-speaking minorities. These issues can be addressed. But the overriding need is for Russia to cease its support for violent separatists.

If President Putin does not change his approach to Ukraine, then Europe and the West must fundamentally change our approach to Russia.

This is not about military action, plainly. But it is time to make our power, influence and resources count.

Our economies are strong and growing in strength. And yet we sometimes behave as if we need Russia more than Russia needs us and the access we provide to European markets, European capital, our knowledge and technological expertise.

We don’t seek a relationship of confrontation with Russia. But we must not shrink from standing up for the principles that govern conduct between independent nations in Europe and which ultimately keep the peace on our continent.

So let us be clear about what needs to happen.

First, there must be immediate access to the crash site and the crime scene must be preserved. The remains of the victims must be identified, treated with proper respect and dignity and returned to their families. There must be a ceasefire. And there must be a full investigation into what happened. Russia will have plenty of information about these events which it must make fully available — and straight away.

Second, Russia must immediately halt supplies and training for the rebels. They do not represent the people of Ukraine. Without Russian support they will wither.

Finally, we must establish proper long-term relationships between Ukraine and the European Union; between Ukraine and Russia; and, above all, between Russia and the European Union, Nato and the wider West.

What form that relationship takes rests on how Russia responds to this appalling tragedy. Russia can use this moment to find a path out of this festering, dangerous crisis. I hope it will do so. But if that does not happen then we must respond robustly.

Nearly 25 years ago Britain hosted the Nato summit that ended the Cold War and began the process of ushering Russia back into the councils of the world.

In six weeks’ time Britain will host a Nato summit in Wales at which the relationship with Russia will again take centre stage. It is up to Russia which path that relationship now takes.

via https://m.facebook.com/DavidCameronOfficial/posts/813717755319211




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kimi_SFC said:
PM David Cameron's (@David_Cameron) Facebook post - 11h

David Cameron
11 hrs ·
Like the horror of Lockerbie in 1988 when I was a young man, the images of the burnt-out Malaysian plane, 298 victims and their personal effects strewn across the wheatfields and villages around Grabovo in eastern Ukraine will never leave me.

Ten of our own citizens died; we grieve for them this weekend. So too did 27 Australians, including members of a family who had previously lost relatives on flight MH370; 43 Malaysians and 192 Dutch citizens also died — a huge blow to our friends and allies. We stand shoulder to shoulder with those countries and with all those affected by this outrage.

But alongside our sympathy there is also anger. Anger that this could happen; anger that a conflict that could have been stopped by Moscow has been fomented by Moscow; anger that some in the West, instead of finding the resolve to deal with this issue, have simply hoped it would go away.

We must establish the full facts of what happened. But the growing weight of evidence points to a clear conclusion: that flight MH17 was blown out of the sky by a surface-to-air missile fired from a rebel-held area.

If this is the case then we must be clear what it means: this is a direct result of Russia destabilising a sovereign state, violating its territorial integrity, backing thuggish militias and training and arming them.

We must turn this moment of outrage into a moment of action. Action to find those who committed this crime and bring them to justice. But this goes much wider than justice.

In Europe we should not need to be reminded of the consequences of turning a blind eye when big countries bully smaller countries. We should not need reminding of the consequences of letting the doctrine of “might is right” prevail. We should not need to be reminded of the lessons of European history.

But we do. For too long there has been a reluctance on the part of too many European countries to face up to the implications of what is happening in eastern Ukraine.

Sitting around the European Council table on Wednesday evening I saw that reluctance at work again.

Some countries, with Britain at the forefront, have consistently pushed for action that reflects the magnitude of the long-term threat. They tend to be the countries with the closest physical proximity to Russia and the most direct experience of what is at stake. Their own independence and nationhood have come at a high price. They never forget it. But others seem more anxious to make this a problem to be managed and contained, not a challenge to be met and mastered.

Elegant forms of words and fine communiqués are no substitute for real action. The weapons and fighters being funnelled across the border between Russia and eastern Ukraine; the support to the militias; the half-truths, the bluster, the delays. They have to stop.

Some international crises are insoluble. Not this one. If President Vladimir Putin stops the support to the fighters in eastern Ukraine and allows the Ukrainian authorities to restore order, this crisis can be brought to an end. Of course there must be proper protections for Russian-speaking minorities. These issues can be addressed. But the overriding need is for Russia to cease its support for violent separatists.

If President Putin does not change his approach to Ukraine, then Europe and the West must fundamentally change our approach to Russia.

This is not about military action, plainly. But it is time to make our power, influence and resources count.

Our economies are strong and growing in strength. And yet we sometimes behave as if we need Russia more than Russia needs us and the access we provide to European markets, European capital, our knowledge and technological expertise.

We don’t seek a relationship of confrontation with Russia. But we must not shrink from standing up for the principles that govern conduct between independent nations in Europe and which ultimately keep the peace on our continent.

So let us be clear about what needs to happen.

First, there must be immediate access to the crash site and the crime scene must be preserved. The remains of the victims must be identified, treated with proper respect and dignity and returned to their families. There must be a ceasefire. And there must be a full investigation into what happened. Russia will have plenty of information about these events which it must make fully available — and straight away.

Second, Russia must immediately halt supplies and training for the rebels. They do not represent the people of Ukraine. Without Russian support they will wither.

Finally, we must establish proper long-term relationships between Ukraine and the European Union; between Ukraine and Russia; and, above all, between Russia and the European Union, Nato and the wider West.

What form that relationship takes rests on how Russia responds to this appalling tragedy. Russia can use this moment to find a path out of this festering, dangerous crisis. I hope it will do so. But if that does not happen then we must respond robustly.

Nearly 25 years ago Britain hosted the Nato summit that ended the Cold War and began the process of ushering Russia back into the councils of the world.

In six weeks’ time Britain will host a Nato summit in Wales at which the relationship with Russia will again take centre stage. It is up to Russia which path that relationship now takes.

via https://m.facebook.com/DavidCameronOfficial/posts/813717755319211




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

excellent statement
 
I hate David Cameron but I have to say to agree with pretty much all of that.


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I don't think anything is going to happen, as time goes by it will be forgotten. putin is not going anywhere, and he will continue doing what he wants, when he wants. jmo
 
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