Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #2

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jjenny said:
They supposedly took a BAK system from an Ukrainian airbase.
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HI
I posted that in the last thread. That is what CNN reporter had stated on air.
As I continued reading other news outlets they use the terms LIKELY seized from Ukrainian military

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/18/5914139/ukrainian-rebels-shot-down-two-planes-in-the-last-month
"It is true that Ukrainian rebels appeared to possess the system, likely seized from the Ukrainian military. The rebels had previously claimed to have a Buk system, according to a June 29 report sourced to the rebel Donetsk People's Republic press service. But that does not mean they knew how to use it."


There is agreement from experts that the Buk is a complex system that requires significant training

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/18/5914139/ukrainian-rebels-shot-down-two-planes-in-the-last-month
"The Buk surface-to-air missile system is a "sophisticated system requiring a whole suite of radar and command vehicles," according to the US embassy in Kiev. In other words, this isn't some shoulder-fired missile in the style of ragtag militias — it's a system that requires several people with real training and resources to coordinate across multiple complex, vehicle-based systems. Typically, firing a Buk takes three vehicles — the launcher itself, a commander vehicle, and a radar vehicle — though some analysts say it is possible for a one-vehicle launcher to operate on its own."

http://mashable.com/2014/07/17/malaysia-mh17-ukraine-what-shot-down/
 
gia2 said:
I agree with you. Whilst the images are incredibly upsetting to see and must be so traumatic for the families (particularly the images of dead children, completely unacceptable to release in my opinion) these photos may be all we get in the way of undisturbed/uncontaminated evidence. Of course many of the photos show the scene after it has been contaminated, but still it gives our investigators something.

For example, the photos will enable investigators to see the type of damage the plane had, to build a map of where the plane fragments ended up, where the passengers landed and their condition. It may give authorities an idea of how many bodies should have been returned to families (I hate to say it but I think everyone is thinking it, perhaps the bodies won't be returned). Then they could try and work out approximately how many would have been incinerated and how many were kept (if any were). It pains a very vivid image for ingestigators anyway. Usually I get so angry at journalists and people not respecting the dead and their families, but given the circumstances I think it may be good in the long run.

I just wish they'd stop posing items and leave them where they fell. I hope some of the local people will collect and store the personal effects such as photos and documents.
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Great post gia. Also, since the wreckage is spread over 10 miles or so, this is not easy and requires organization. Unfortunately it's chaos since this is so close to a war zone.

I agree, the children should not have been posted. And any intact bodies identified and returned to loved ones.
 
jjenny said:
They supposedly took a BAK system from an Ukrainian airbase.
Click to expand...

Intermezzo said:
HI
I posted that in the last thread. That is what CNN reporter had stated on air.
As I continued reading other news outlets they use the terms LIKELY seized from Ukrainian military

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/18/5914139/ukrainian-rebels-shot-down-two-planes-in-the-last-month
"It is true that Ukrainian rebels appeared to possess the system, likely seized from the Ukrainian military. The rebels had previously claimed to have a Buk system, according to a June 29 report sourced to the rebel Donetsk People's Republic press service. But that does not mean they knew how to use it."


There is agreement from experts that the Buk is a complex system that requires significant training

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/18/5914139/ukrainian-rebels-shot-down-two-planes-in-the-last-month
"The Buk surface-to-air missile system is a "sophisticated system requiring a whole suite of radar and command vehicles," according to the US embassy in Kiev. In other words, this isn't some shoulder-fired missile in the style of ragtag militias — it's a system that requires several people with real training and resources to coordinate across multiple complex, vehicle-based systems. Typically, firing a Buk takes three vehicles — the launcher itself, a commander vehicle, and a radar vehicle — though some analysts say it is possible for a one-vehicle launcher to operate on its own."

http://mashable.com/2014/07/17/malaysia-mh17-ukraine-what-shot-down/
Click to expand...

If as suggested the rebels did manage to capture the BUK system themselves, they did it having been armed by and with the support of Russia. Once they had the system, they would have required training on how to use it - the most likely source for this would have been Russia.
 
Intermezzo said:
HI
I posted that in the last thread. That is what CNN reporter had stated on air.
As I continued reading other news outlets they use the terms LIKELY seized from Ukrainian military

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/18/5914139/ukrainian-rebels-shot-down-two-planes-in-the-last-month
"It is true that Ukrainian rebels appeared to possess the system, likely seized from the Ukrainian military. The rebels had previously claimed to have a Buk system, according to a June 29 report sourced to the rebel Donetsk People's Republic press service. But that does not mean they knew how to use it."


There is agreement from experts that the Buk is a complex system that requires significant training

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/18/5914139/ukrainian-rebels-shot-down-two-planes-in-the-last-month
"The Buk surface-to-air missile system is a "sophisticated system requiring a whole suite of radar and command vehicles," according to the US embassy in Kiev. In other words, this isn't some shoulder-fired missile in the style of ragtag militias — it's a system that requires several people with real training and resources to coordinate across multiple complex, vehicle-based systems. Typically, firing a Buk takes three vehicles — the launcher itself, a commander vehicle, and a radar vehicle — though some analysts say it is possible for a one-vehicle launcher to operate on its own."

http://mashable.com/2014/07/17/malaysia-mh17-ukraine-what-shot-down/
Click to expand...

If this is the case, I am sure someone would be able to operate it.

Now you got me thinking. Maybe the "operator" did not know how to use and it misfired. My inside voice.
 
This is somewhat off-topic, but I found it interesting. MH17 made her maiden voyage on July 17, 1996 and was shot down exactly 17 years later, to the day.

Weird huh?
 
jjenny said:
How does Russia have control of the area? There is a civil war going on. Russian troops are not in this area. By the way, it doesn't seen these countries actually want anything transported into Russia either.
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According to the Pentagon Russian troops are in the area
As of March the focus of the troop build up has been along the border with East Ukraine

The Pentagon estimates that Russia has placed between 10,000 and 12,000 soldiers along its border with war-torn eastern Ukraine on Wednesday.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-placing-thousands-of-troops-along-border-2014-7#ixzz37wEnD300
 
ElleElle said:
If this is the case, I am sure someone would be able to operate it.

Now you got me thinking. Maybe the "operator" did not know how to use and it misfired. My inside voice.
Click to expand...


MH17 was the 3rd plane shot down in that area this past week. The other 2 planes(Ukrainian military) were also flying at high altitude

I believe the rebels were trained, the whole rebel army need not be trained..just a few that are required to operate it.

Also, If we believe the authenticity of the audio released between a rebel member and Russian military then it was deliberate
http://q13fox.com/2014/07/18/ukrain...we-have-just-shot-down-a-plane/#axzz37wIUfcsR
Ukraine releases audio allegedly from pro-Russian rebels, ‘We have just shot down a plane’
 
ElleElle said:
I personally don't mind the images. It is a fact, and I have a feeling it will get worse. I guess I don't possess any feelings?
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Each one of us is different. It breaks my heart that the images are online; but as was said; it is documenting everything; or bits at a time. I am one that can look at them too; I'm also the type of person that can stay calm with medical emergencies. I get it from my dad who was an EMT. It does not mean we have no feelings; so do not ever think like that!

My 1st thought was Immerstat (or another company) that has satellites. I wonder if any can see where they are driving what they're taking from the crash site.
 
BJsleuth said:
This one particularly. He often has no tact nor diplomacy and has his foot firmly in his mouth much of the time. It's a scary situation and he needs to exercise restraint, but he has another agenda I believe. I have said since he became Prime Minister he's just waiting on an excuse to go to war.
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I know right? Both Abbott and Newman talking tough about Russia? What the hell are they doing!! Abbott is hoping for the popularity surge he enjoyed during the search for MH370. Also agree, he is busting a gut to get all warm and cosy with some kind of overseas conflict, seriously .. I can't stand that we follow the USA into conflicts that have nothing to do with us .. please god, can't we just stay out of it .. we live in a peaceful country for now :(
 
Good god what a mess.
(Apologies for posting this next bit) --- They need to get those remains preserved in cold storage to delay decomp and return them to the relatives ; imo.
All personal effects need to be returned to their loved ones as well , and NOT destroyed ! This isn't like the MH370 that went missing in the Indian ocean ; there is evidence and it needs to be preserved.
The photo that endures in my mind is the one of children's card games and toys strewn about on the field -- precious things a child would bring with them on a trip .
This is, imo, a crime scene and needs to be treated as such.

The way I see it --and there are probably some who would agree -- this was murder and not some random "accident". Not trying to sound disrespectful, but to look at this tragedy and say that the one(s) who fired off this BUK missile did an "oops"is ridiculous. They knew they were going to kill someone. But to point this weapon at some random plane and hope they hit the right one ? What incompetents.
MOO
 
This is a story that appeared on July 14 from the Interpreter : The Interpreter is a daily-updated online journal dedicated primarily to translating media from the Russian press and blogosphere into English.

Ukraine Says Aircraft Was Shot Down By Advanced Missiles
14:34 (GMT)


The Russian separatists have been spotted with many anti-aircraft missiles. Most of them are MANPADS, shoulder-fired rockets that are quite effective. The main weapon in this category is the 9K38 Igla. But that weapon is only capable of hitting planes that are traveling at no more than approximately 3.5 kilometers (11,000 feet). Recently, we've been tracking a weapon which very well may have crossed the border from Russia into Ukraine on July 2-3rd. This is the advanced 9K35 Strela-10. But even this weapon has a maximum intercept range of about 3500 meters.

The article goes on to discuss whether or not the Separatists have a Buk and mention this:

The 9k37 Buk is a weapon with a range of up to 14000 meters, but has never been seen in the hands of separatists. The Russian network TV Zvezda, the news network for the Russian military, did report that a Buk fell to separatist hands on June 29th. However, is it possible that TV Zvezda was "seeding" the story, planting an explanation for why the separatists would have such an advanced weapons system? After all, they are the only source reporting this story to our knowledge, there are no pictures or videos of the separatists possessing this missile system, nor have we been able to tie the claims made by TV Zvezda back to a specific incident that may have resulted in the loss of such a weapon. Just one day later Ukraine launched its new anti-terrorism operation, capturing significant separatist territory and flushing out a lot of the separatist vehicles, and yet no 9k37 Buks were spotted during this time to our knowledge.

Personally, I think it's highly possible that the Buk was given to the separatists by Russia at this juncture and the cover story fed to the media to explain it.

Another article:

General Philip Breedlove, the commander of the U.S. European Command, said that Moscow has been supplying Ukrainian separatists with anti-aircraft weaponry, and has held training sessions along the eastern Ukrainian border, teaching rebels how to operate the systems.

Then this:

Direct supply of the BUK from Moscow to rebels would be a major escalation in the ongoing conflict. However, on June 29, Russia's official news agency, ITAR-TASS, reported that pro-Russian separatists took a BUK system under their control. The report does not specify whether or not this was theft from the Russian or Ukrainian militaries, only that the rebels had seized control of the weapons system.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118741/ukraine-rebels-allegedly-downed-malaysian-airlines-buk-launcher

Here's that article from June 29 : http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1287030 even better, here's another one in English : http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_...trol-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installation-1561/

The self-defense forces of Donetsk People’s Republic seized control of a Ukrainian anti-air military installation, RIA Novosti reports.

"The forces of Donetsk People’s Republic assumed control of A-1402 military base," the militia's representative said. According to him, it is an anti-aircraft missile forces facility equipped with Buk mobile surface-to-air missile systems.

During the last several days the militia took control of two internal security troops' installations in eastern Ukraine.

^^ This is the information which people wonder wasn't planted by Moscow to explain the Rebels having such weaponry, when in fact Moscow supplied them with the Buk, and why most of our politicians are saying they are not sure whether the Buk was supplied by Russia or stolen from Ukraine. I say the people who'd know the truth here would be the Ukraines, as they know whether or not this happened, and we know what they're saying.


On June 29 the separatists in eastern Ukraine announced to Russian media they have gained access to a BUK-M1 land-air missile system – a system capable of hitting a plane at MH17’s altitude.

They claimed to have captured it from a Ukrainian army base.

However, the base had only contained one BUK-M1 which had been disabled on March 3, and had no missiles, Mr Nayda said. The remains of that launcher were still on the base

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-cr...e-spy-chief-20140720-zuwws.html#ixzz37wXJ3JZR

 
I would direct everyone to Rense.com. There are a couple of articles there by a Japanase scientist that explain that this was no accident, or surface to air missle. There were over ten corpses on the plane, as well as blood collections, and biological samples. Most of the Dutch scientists on board were AIDs researchers. This is biowarfare by deception.
 
Intermezzo said:
MH17 was the 3rd plane shot down in that area this past week. The other 2 planes(Ukrainian military) were also flying at high altitude

I believe the rebels were trained, the whole rebel army need not be trained..just a few that are required to operate it.

Also, If we believe the authenticity of the audio released between a rebel member and Russian military then it was deliberate
http://q13fox.com/2014/07/18/ukrain-releases-audio-allegedly-from-pro-russian-rebels-we-have-just-shot-down-a-plane/#axzz37wIUfcsR

Intermezzo said:
MH17 was the 3rd plane shot down in that area this past week. The other 2 planes(Ukrainian military) were also flying at high altitude

I believe the rebels were trained, the whole rebel army need not be trained..just a few that are required to operate it.

Also, If we believe the authenticity of the audio released between a rebel member and Russian military then it was deliberate
Click to expand...
Intermezzo said:
http://q13fox.com/2014/07/18/ukrain...we-have-just-shot-down-a-plane/#axzz37wIUfcsR




Ukraine releases audio allegedly from pro-Russian rebels, ‘We have just shot down a plane’
Click to expand...


I am not justifying what happened........the first time I heard I thought the idiots did not know what they were doing. Then when I found out that launcher uses heat seeking missles (in this instance it would go for jet exhaust the 777 engines are HUGE!) I felt it explained the mess up more. (the plane was 6 miles above the planet!)

Then they only had two of three major components of the system - the third one being the one that would clearly identify it as a passenger aircraft -- the two components they had DO NOT do that....... links posted last thread :

the questions they asked one another - (not knowing call was intercepted), hit me totally as if it were an accident. We also do not have tone of voice cause of language issues.

The headlines are "We have just shot down a plane." (This line can also be translated to "We have seen a plane shot down". Huge difference .

He then clarifies again using the word "But"
"But the writing says ‘Malaysia Airlines.’ What was it doing over the territory of Ukraine?”
Why the hell were they flying? This is war going on.”

Rationalization?

he then asks if there 'are weapons on board."......that question would be congruent with thinking that no one would shoot a civilian plane out of the sky- and that it is indeed not a miliary plane.

......all this week they had been shooting military stuff down that I would assume had weapons....

He repeats again the word absolutly is intense (i.e I am telling you , again, that this is not a miliary plane)"Absolutely nothing. Civilian items",

This is telling: Again he is asking is there any doucments (proof)

"Yes. Of an Indonesian student from Thompson University". He then cusses Feck.”

that terminology usually indicates ....like oh no

"Pilots. Where are the pilots?"

Still kinda of going back to hitting earlier miliatry planes with only pilots aboard. (killing pilots as opposed to jetliner filled with passengers)

How many minutes ago? contradicts the "We have just shot down a plane."

JUST implies an awareness of "when" ---asking how long ago does not.

........that question is congruent with this translation (This line can also be translated to "We have seen a plane shot down,

He is still confused: "what do you have there? (After examining the site of the plane the terrorists come to the conclusion that they have shot down a civilian plane.)

He repeats that it was in fact "a passenger plane " 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft".Again(!) trying to communicate yes it is a passenger plane.

"Are many people there?" Continued efforts to try and figure out what has happened. If I just shot, (on purpose), a civilian airliner, I would know there are people there.

When told people were there, another expletive Holy *****! same context as . Feck.

"What kind of aircraft?" Again, continuing to try to understand what is going on.

"I haven’t ascertained this" again Context I will get back to you, not really quite sure yet what is going on here.

Then he goes back to his (based on earlier shootings this week) "Is there anything left of the weapon?"
Indicates continued notion that this was military - commercial aircraft do not have weapons!

He clarifies AGAIN: "nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper".... repeating it IS civilian

He continues to try and grasp this - "any documents?"

...."From a university in Thompson. ,
"Feck". Expletive used in the context of oh no--again

He is told "It turned out to be a passenger aircraft" Reiterating again..

"But, (now kind of argueing!) "Malaysia Airlines is written on it". Indicates continued confusion as to what is going on.

"What was it doing on Ukraine’s territory?" Again clarifying question congruent with their behavior ( shooting down military aircraft earlier in the week).

"It means they wanted to bring some spies to us". "Feck them". They should not fly, we are at war here".

Justifying when he realizes that oh boy it was a passenger plane

They proclaimed via tweet, earlier in week: "We warned you, stay away from our skies," the message said in Russian, according to translations posted by Russian-speaking reporters.

I just think they were not trained properly, the did not have all the equipment needed to do it with accuracy and messed up.

Re: flying at high altitude

What they had been hitting earlier in the week was at much lower altitudes --21,000 and LOWER (think golf!)
Just imo
Click to expand...
 
I think so too CARIIS, I think they just got their new toy and had been shooting down planes with it all week and sooner or later they were going to mess up and shoot a civilian plane and that's exactly what happened, they didn't have enough training and they certainly didn't identify this plane properly before they shot it down.
 
I am trying to verify it now but I believe that one of the sanctions levied against Russia only the day before was against the manufacturer of the "BUK" weapon system. To me more than ironic that this same system was used to bring down this airplane some 24 hours later. Even more ironic to me is that there was a pre-planned telephone call between Putin and Obama that was conveniently almost in sync with this missile attack. Putin expressed his unhappiness about the new sanctions during the call and then casually mentions the downing of the plane at the end.

I sure hope someone helps to put a stop to Putin's and Obama's pi$$ing match before more innocent people get killed.

JMO's

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/16/politics/ukraine-russia-sanctions/index.html
 
TY for those articles. Mrs. G!

I was just watching Rachel Maddow, and one of the segments included a portion of Gen. Breedlove's Pentagon briefing a few weeks ago (which was mentioned in one of the articles you posted) during which he talked about NATO intel regarding the Russians recently training the separatists in the use of the Buk missile system.

I have zero confidence in any info coming out of Russia. Putin has every reason to deny and to try to place the blame elsewhere because he knows he's complicit in the attack on flight MH17, due to his ongoing support of the separatists. He & his State-controlled media have been spinning this from the very beginning. His official news agency claimed early on that he was the intended victim and that the Ukrainian military tried to shoot down his presidential plane, but instead shot the Malaysian plane down by mistake. They have since retracted that ridiculous story, but the way back machine has a cache of it, per the Rachel Maddow Show.

The lengths he's gone to in an attempt to divert attention away from his culpability by planting absurdly false media stories demonstrates to me that he's a liar and can't be trusted one iota.
 
I agree Sorrell there's just no denying it .. I thought the story about witnesses seeing two Ukrainian jet fighters tracking the plane was equally ridiculous, I don't even think he can fool his own people over this mess.

For me, it's his attempts to cover up and blame Ukrainians which prove his guilt.
 
" On Saturday, in the village of Hrabove, one passenger's body was seen still strapped into an airline seat, with bare toes peeking out under long jeans. Another body was flung face-up into a field of blue flowers.

Treatment of the victims' remains, left in the open air under a hot summer sun punctuated by bursts of rainfall, has provoked outrage and distress.

"The news we got today of the bodies being dragged around, of the site not being treated properly, has really created a shock in the Netherlands," Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans told the Ukrainian president in Kyiv. "People are angry, are furious at what they hear."

Timmermans demanded the culprits be found."

Read more: http://www.cp24.com/world/internati...ite-for-investigation-1.1921876#ixzz37wiNq1eO
 
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