Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #2

[CARIIS]

This is a story that appeared on July 14 from the Interpreter : The Interpreter is a daily-updated online journal dedicated primarily to translating media from the Russian press and blogosphere into English.

Ukraine Says Aircraft Was Shot Down By Advanced Missiles
14:34 (GMT)


The Russian separatists have been spotted with many anti-aircraft missiles. Most of them are MANPADS, shoulder-fired rockets that are quite effective. The main weapon in this category is the 9K38 Igla. But that weapon is only capable of hitting planes that are traveling at no more than approximately 3.5 kilometers (11,000 feet). Recently, we've been tracking a weapon which very well may have crossed the border from Russia into Ukraine on July 2-3rd. This is the advanced 9K35 Strela-10. But even this weapon has a maximum intercept range of about 3500 meters.

The article goes on to discuss whether or not the Separatists have a Buk and mention this:

The 9k37 Buk is a weapon with a range of up to 14000 meters, but has never been seen in the hands of separatists. The Russian network TV Zvezda, the news network for the Russian military, did report that a Buk fell to separatist hands on June 29th. However, is it possible that TV Zvezda was "seeding" the story, planting an explanation for why the separatists would have such an advanced weapons system? After all, they are the only source reporting this story to our knowledge, there are no pictures or videos of the separatists possessing this missile system, nor have we been able to tie the claims made by TV Zvezda back to a specific incident that may have resulted in the loss of such a weapon. Just one day later Ukraine launched its new anti-terrorism operation, capturing significant separatist territory and flushing out a lot of the separatist vehicles, and yet no 9k37 Buks were spotted during this time to our knowledge.

Personally, I think it's highly possible that the Buk was given to the separatists by Russia at this juncture and the cover story fed to the media to explain it.

Another article:

General Philip Breedlove, the commander of the U.S. European Command, said that Moscow has been supplying Ukrainian separatists with anti-aircraft weaponry, and has held training sessions along the eastern Ukrainian border, teaching rebels how to operate the systems.

Then this:

Direct supply of the BUK from Moscow to rebels would be a major escalation in the ongoing conflict. However, on June 29, Russia's official news agency, ITAR-TASS, reported that pro-Russian separatists took a BUK system under their control. The report does not specify whether or not this was theft from the Russian or Ukrainian militaries, only that the rebels had seized control of the weapons system.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118741/ukraine-rebels-allegedly-downed-malaysian-airlines-buk-launcher

Here's that article from June 29 : http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1287030 even better, here's another one in English : http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_...trol-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installation-1561/

The self-defense forces of Donetsk People’s Republic seized control of a Ukrainian anti-air military installation, RIA Novosti reports.

"The forces of Donetsk People’s Republic assumed control of A-1402 military base," the militia's representative said. According to him, it is an anti-aircraft missile forces facility equipped with Buk mobile surface-to-air missile systems.

During the last several days the militia took control of two internal security troops' installations in eastern Ukraine.

^^ This is the information which people wonder wasn't planted by Moscow to explain the Rebels having such weaponry, when in fact Moscow supplied them with the Buk, and why most of our politicians are saying they are not sure whether the Buk was supplied by Russia or stolen from Ukraine. I say the people who'd know the truth here would be the Ukraines, as they know whether or not this happened, and we know what they're saying.


On June 29 the separatists in eastern Ukraine announced to Russian media they have gained access to a BUK-M1 land-air missile system – a system capable of hitting a plane at MH17’s altitude.

They claimed to have captured it from a Ukrainian army base.

However, the base had only contained one BUK-M1 which had been disabled on March 3, and had no missiles, Mr Nayda said. The remains of that launcher were still on the base

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-cr...e-spy-chief-20140720-zuwws.html#ixzz37wXJ3JZR

Great post thank you!

 

[gia2]

" On Saturday, in the village of Hrabove, one passenger's body was seen still strapped into an airline seat, with bare toes peeking out under long jeans. Another body was flung face-up into a field of blue flowers.

Treatment of the victims' remains, left in the open air under a hot summer sun punctuated by bursts of rainfall, has provoked outrage and distress.

"The news we got today of the bodies being dragged around, of the site not being treated properly, has really created a shock in the Netherlands," Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans told the Ukrainian president in Kyiv. "People are angry, are furious at what they hear."

Timmermans demanded the culprits be found."

Read more: http://www.cp24.com/world/internati...ite-for-investigation-1.1921876#ixzz37wiNq1eO

Has anyone see reports from people at the scene detailing this 'dragging' around of passenger bodies? I wonder what is meant by this exactly. The only photos I've seen today are of workers on site moving bodies (in body bags) on stretchers and placing them together for pick up.

There seems to be outrage that bodies aren't being moved to be stored and also outrage that the bodies are being 'dragged around'. I wonder if it does actually mean the bodies are being mishandled, or that the workers have so many bodies to bag up, they're doing it quickly and it appears they are not doing it 'sensitively'.

 

[CARIIS]

i am trying to verify it now but i believe that one of the sanctions levied against russia only the day before was against the manufacturer of the "buk" weapon system. To me more than ironic that this same system was used to bring down this airplane some 24 hours later. Even more ironic to me is that there was a pre-planned telephone call between putin and obama that was conveniently almost in sync with this missile attack. Putin expressed his unhappiness about the new sanctions during the call and then casually mentions the downing of the plane at the end.

I sure hope someone helps to put a stop to putin's and obama's pi$$ing match before more innocent people get killed.

Jmo's

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/16/politics/ukraine-russia-sanctions/index.html

w o w!

 

[panthera]

I agree with you. Whilst the images are incredibly upsetting to see and must be so traumatic for the families (particularly the images of dead children, completely unacceptable to release in my opinion) these photos may be all we get in the way of undisturbed/uncontaminated evidence. Of course many of the photos show the scene after it has been contaminated, but still it gives our investigators something.

For example, the photos will enable investigators to see the type of damage the plane had, to build a map of where the plane fragments ended up, where the passengers landed and their condition. It may give authorities an idea of how many bodies should have been returned to families (I hate to say it but I think everyone is thinking it, perhaps the bodies won't be returned). Then they could try and work out approximately how many would have been incinerated and how many were kept (if any were). It pains a very vivid image for ingestigators anyway. Usually I get so angry at journalists and people not respecting the dead and their families, but given the circumstances I think it may be good in the long run.

I just wish they'd stop posing items and leave them where they fell. I hope some of the local people will collect and store the personal effects such as photos and documents.

Totally agree! This is one time, in my opinion, where the media cannot get too many photos, especially of the victims, their belongings and of course, the wreckage. In this case, it is not disrespectful, it is documenting the crime scene.

MOO

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Loving the Interpreter as a news / commentary source.

This article has a better screen shot of the social media post uploaded by Strelkov

http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-151-who-shot-down-mh17/

You can clearly see previews of the videos there so here they both are edited together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6jHFQ59ltI

I'd love to see some more analysis of these videos and the social media posts, like when was this post made in relation to the time when the plane actually went down?

 

[CARIIS]

Good god what a mess.
(Apologies for posting this next bit) --- They need to get those remains preserved in cold storage to delay decomp and return them to the relatives ; imo.
All personal effects need to be returned to their loved ones as well , and NOT destroyed ! This isn't like the MH370 that went missing in the Indian ocean ; there is evidence and it needs to be preserved.
The photo that endures in my mind is the one of children's card games and toys strewn about on the field -- precious things a child would bring with them on a trip .
This is, imo, a crime scene and needs to be treated as such.

The way I see it --and there are probably some who would agree -- this was murder and not some random "accident". Not trying to sound disrespectful, but to look at this tragedy and say that the one(s) who fired off this BUK missile did an "oops"is ridiculous. They knew they were going to kill someone. But to point this weapon at some random plane and hope they hit the right one ? What incompetents.
MOO

Strange, I feel , again like I am being a bummer. But man, IMO , we have passed go, there is no get out of jail ---it is over - it is IMO a fantasy to think as far as human remains go --its gone. I just got weather for region- below. They have , again sorry, just being the world ) but we are adults. Human beings sitting in fields for more than 72 hours are rotting. Sorry.

How many did they toss into a truck today - so that translates to hundreds still sitting in some field - for how much longer?

And it becomes more BS - oh big deal they dragged some bodies, let me sit on hot road, then what.

Here is brief summary about how civilized people treat corpses:

Bodies are kept between 2 °C (36 °F) and 4 °C (39 °F). While this is usually used for keeping bodies for up to several weeks, it does not prevent decomposition, which continues at a slower rate than at room temperature

Bodies are kept between 2 °C (36 °F) and 4 °C (39 °F). While this is usually used for keeping bodies for up to several weeks, it does not prevent decomposition, which continues at a slower rate than at room temperature

About three hours after death, rigor mortis -- a stiffening of muscles -- sets in. Around 12 hours after death, the body will feel cool, and within 24 hours (depending on body fat and external temperatures), it will lose all internal heat in a process called lager mortis. The muscle tissue begins to lose its stiffness after about 36 hours, and within about 72 hours of dying, the body's rigor mortis will subside

insects and animals certainly take notice of all this. A human body provides sustenance and a great place for insects to lay eggs. A fly trying to find its way in this crazy, mixed-up world can eat well on a corpse, and then lay up to 300 eggs upon it that will hatch within a day.

Maggots -- the larvae that emerge from these eggs -- are extremely efficient and thorough flesh-eaters. Starting on the outside of the body where they hatched, maggots use mouth hooks to scoop up the fluids oozing out of the corpse. Within a day's time, the maggots will have entered the second stage of their larval lives, as well as burrowing into the corpse.

Maggots can consume up to 60 percent of a human body in under seven days [source: Australian Museum].

They want the world to believe they have capacity to meet these numbers for 300 people out in the middle of a field? Again were not idiots Putin it’s just absurd.

Then we have transport --I doubt these people have stuff with "wheels" that can maintain those temperatures - which is going to translate to DAYS more of decamp.

Then we have terrorists running checkpoints slowing down everything more.

The bodies are putrid, many in pieces, sloshing around in black garbage bags, (black itself makes everything hotter) on the back of some refrigerated farmer truck , bouncing around in pot holes, probably being opened at checkpoints.



http://science.howstuffworks.com/body-farm1.htm

Then going to have to through identification. If plane crash with 300 deaths happened here or Britain or Australia -- any big place ---they would have to bring in forensic folks from surrounding areas to deal just with that process.


http://www.weathercity.com/ua/kiev/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgue



Cut and paste did not work : average temp is around 82

 

[jamiect]

This is a great article written today by one of the reporters on scene.

Chaos At Malaysia Airlines Crash Site Leaves Victims By The Roadside. Warning: pic's of body bags.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/chaos-at-malaysian-airlines-crash-site-leaves-victims-by-the

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Man .. not only that .. but there is no way there's going to be an independent investigation until all the little bits of missile are picked up which is going to be a near impossibility .. ah those pesky uncontrollable rebels .. perhaps we'll see some kind of attempt at negotiation with them by Putin over the next few days which will undoubtably fail. What can you do, you can only try right?

 

[sorrell skye]

I am trying to verify it now but I believe that one of the sanctions levied against Russia only the day before was against the manufacturer of the "BUK" weapon system. To me more than ironic that this same system was used to bring down this airplane some 24 hours later. Even more ironic to me is that there was a pre-planned telephone call between Putin and Obama that was conveniently almost in sync with this missile attack. Putin expressed his unhappiness about the new sanctions during the call and then casually mentions the downing of the plane at the end.

I sure hope someone helps to put a stop to Putin's and Obama's pi$$ing match before more innocent people get killed.

JMO's

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/16/politics/ukraine-russia-sanctions/index.html

TY for the article Jggordo!

I also found this from the article:

In addition, the new sanctions freeze any U.S. assets and prohibit American business contacts for eight Russian arms companies that make weapons, including small arms, mortars and surface-to-air missiles. One of the eight is the Kalashnikov Concern, maker of the AK-47 and other arms.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/16/politics/ukraine-russia-sanctions/index.html

The Buk system, known in the West as “Gadfly” or SA-11 or SA-17, is made by a company called Dolgoprudny, which is owned by GSKB Almaz-Antey, a joint-stock military defense company based in Moscow. The company was one of many targeted in the latest round of sanctions announced Wednesday, probably because of its high profile and government connections.

http://www.ibtimes.com/maker-buk-mi...own-mh17-targeted-recent-us-sanctions-1632698

The U.S. had received intel a few weeks ago via Gen. Breedlove (Commander of Nato Allied Command Operations in Europe) that Russia was training the pro-Russian separatists near the eastern Ukrainian border in the use of the Buk missile system.

According to President Obama's press conference yesterday, as well as U.S. Ambassador to the UN Samantha Power's statements during yesterday's UN Security Council meeting, intel has revealed that Putin has been providing an assortment of arms and training to the separatists, all the while Putin has been pretending to support a cease-fire and peaceful resolution to the conflict.

I suspect this intel is one of the reasons the sanctions against Russian arms companies has been imposed.

It's no wonder Putin is in full-on CYA mode. He's been caught red-handed and he knows it.

 

[kimi_SFC]

Has anyone see reports from people at the scene detailing this 'dragging' around of passenger bodies? I wonder what is meant by this exactly. The only photos I've seen today are of workers on site moving bodies (in body bags) on stretchers and placing them together for pick up.

There seems to be outrage that bodies aren't being moved to be stored and also outrage that the bodies are being 'dragged around'. I wonder if it does actually mean the bodies are being mishandled, or that the workers have so many bodies to bag up, they're doing it quickly and it appears they are not doing it 'sensitively'.

Yes, it was tweeted by one of the journalists earlier today (the mishandling of the remains)

zwiebel posted his twitter feed on thread #1

(I will ETA with the link shortly)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[time]

MH17 was the 3rd plane shot down in that area this past week. The other 2 planes(Ukrainian military) were also flying at high altitude

I believe the rebels were trained, the whole rebel army need not be trained..just a few that are required to operate it.

Also, If we believe the authenticity of the audio released between a rebel member and Russian military then it was deliberate
http://q13fox.com/2014/07/18/ukrain...we-have-just-shot-down-a-plane/#axzz37wIUfcsR
Ukraine releases audio allegedly from pro-Russian rebels, ‘We have just shot down a plane’

Aren't some of those rebels defectors from the Ukrainian military?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4064836.ece

 

[Mrs G Norris]

<snipped>

The U.S. had received intel a few weeks ago via Gen. Breedlove (Commander of Nato Allied Command Operations in Europe) that Russia was training the pro-Russian separatists near the eastern Ukrainian border in the use of the Buk missile system.

According to President Obama's press conference yesterday, as well as U.S. Ambassador to the UN Samantha Power's statements during yesterday's UN Security Council meeting, intel has revealed that Putin has been providing an assortment of arms and training to the separatists, all the while Putin has been pretending to support a cease-fire and peaceful resolution to the conflict.

I suspect this intel is one of the reasons the sanctions against Russian arms companies has been imposed.

It's no wonder Putin is in full-on CYA mode. He's been caught red-handed and he knows it.

Holy @%*#!!!!

I think he'll be quite willing to sacrifice a few rebels for the sake of appearances .. I think the three they think shot the missile are marked for death.

 

[ElleElle]

There is no stopping now. This is a major International incident with the loss of the poor souls on board.

Why is Putin getting a get out of jail free card?

We need international intervention now.

Grrr moo.

 

[CARIIS]

Do we have any idea of how many folks they transpoorted to god knows where?

 

[CARIIS]

There is no stopping now. This is a major International incident with the loss of the poor souls on board.

Why is Putin getting a get out of jail free card?

We need international intervention now.

Grrr moo.

! I meant that the media still saying we really need to get in there- as far as bodies go its late !

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Not to sound too doom and gloom, but let's face it, we're not getting any kind of independent investigation .. one will be done, but it will have to be based on evidence not collected from the crash site.

 

[bettybaby00]

Quinn, May you rest in peace

So there have only been 2 Americans confirmed?

 

[gia2]

oh big deal they dragged some bodies, let me sit on hot road, then what.

Exactly, and then what?!

I don't think you'll find many people here or out there who is not disgusted with how the bodies have been left where they fell. It is so disturbing. That being said, I don't think they had a clue how to deal with the number of bodies they are faced with. Considering the location of the site, what realistic options do they have? I doubt there are many mortuaries nearby and certainly none that could accomodate even a fraction of the number of bodies needing tending to.
So the alternatives are to bury the bodies in a mass grave (which of course no one wants as the bodies should be returned to their families for proper burial) or to find some large refrigerated storate areas. I'm not sure what life is like in that area, but having seen a picture of the room in which a body is left after falling through the roof, I'd say there aren't going to be that many of those around.
So what do they do with all these decomposing bodies? If there is little in the way of room for them in refrigerated units and in mortuaries, what do they do?


I am not making excuses about the treatment of the bodies, far from it. It's vile and must be adding so much extra horror for the families of the deceased. I just am not sure what can be done, if as many of the bodies as possible are to be returned to the families.

People are angry that the bodies were left as they lay (rightly so and natural to be angry about that), angry that the bodies were moved (dragged by some accounts), angry that they were left by the road (beside the road from what I've seen, but of course I've not seen all!) to be picked up, angry that some bodies have been taken away from the site... It's all horrible. It's all anger inducing. But I'm not sure what could be done.

Obviously the only possible solution was to LET THE INVESTIGATION TEAMS IN to explore the wreckage and organise the removal of the bodies. But they won't allow investigators around the site. I'm sure it would still be a massive task to organise the removal of the bodies, even with such assistance, but at least it would have been a shot at getting as many of the bodies away as possible. They must have known that they couldn't organise the removal of the bodies and known what was going to happen!

As time goes by, what solution is there I wonder. Anyone got suggestions on what may be possible options for them?

I don't see how they could bring these bodies home in the state they'll be in. I did think perhaps request that families allow cremation and notes taken of each body as to their location on site, any clothing or jewellery (although we know that may have been looted) and any other distinguishing things they can find out. Even then it would be near impossible to ensure all families got the right ashes back. Some religious groups would not allow for cremation either.
We could try and take moulds of the teeth of those still in a state where that is possible, but this is unrealistic due to the time it would take.

I'm at a loss really. It's hard to think about possibilities when we don't know what is available to them or close by. I feel so sad for these people and their families

 

[Mrs G Norris]

RELATIVES of the 192 Dutch victims of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 are waiting near Amsterdam&#8217;s Schiphol airport to fly to the crash site in Ukraine.

&#8220;It&#8217;s not yet known when the families will go,&#8221; an airline spokeswoman said on Saturday, asking not to be named.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...-site-in-ukraine/story-fnizu68q-1226994899639

Is this really a good idea?

 

[sorrell skye]

Holy @%*#!!!!

I think he'll be quite willing to sacrifice a few rebels for the sake of appearances .. I think the three they think shot the missile are marked for death.

I agree. I think whomever is responsible for "pulling the trigger" is a dead man walking, if they haven't already been taken into custody by Putin's goons and executed. I won't shed any tears for them.

It's beyond frustrating that the OSCE hasn't been allowed unfettered access to the crime scene. If the gun-toting thugs won't let an international crisis management team get near the evidence of their crime, I don't hold out any hope of an investigative team being allowed to come in.

This is truly a case of the criminals guarding the crime scene.

Meanwhile, the victims are left to decompose and the bereaved are without comfort.

I have no sympathy at all for the separatists or for their political cause. They have no righteous ground upon which to stand.

My heart goes out to the families and loved ones of those who were needlessly slaughtered.