Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #3

[ElleElle]

ONCE AGAIN, INVESTIGATORS UNABLE TO REACH LOCATION OF THE CRASH

DUTCH PM DEMANDS CEASE FIRE


http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/rutte-eist-staken-gevechten-bij-rampplek

Translation:

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte has urged the Ukrainian president Petro Porosjenko this morning to cease the hostilities around the crash site of MH17. Once again, the area today cannot be reached by Dutch police and forensic experts.

According to the Government press release, Rutte expressed his great concern over the fact that ' international experts appear to be unable to reach the crash site again today and that valuable time to salvage and bring home the victims is lost '.


BBM

:sigh: I don't think President PP can do much more in this situation. Too bad the UN could not international.

This is where New World Order is scary because a world police might be of good use now. MOO

 

[ElleElle]

Thanks BJsleuth for the link.

So putin has gotten away with murder and sanctions will be thrown his way. pffft

So, why is nobody doing anything? Wonder what it would be like to have other "powers" in power. This is an act of terrorism! Russia had no business shooting into the W. Ukraine or, at an innocent plane for that matter.

 

[ZaZara]

INVESTIGATION INTO THE CAUSE OF THE CRASH WILL BE READY WITHIN ONE MONTH

http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/onderzoek-oorzaak-crash-mh17-binnen-maand-klaar



The investigation into the cause of the crash of flight MH17 in Ukraine is progressing rapidly. The Safety Board (Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid OVV) hopes to finish the provisional findings within a month.

The conclusions of the investigation will be made public at that moment, Wim van der Weegen of OVV has said in Kiev.

The work will take a little longer than previously expected. Initially, the OVV hoped to publish the first facts by the end of this week. However, the circumstances are complicated due to the special situation.

The possibility that investigators of the OVV may still not have been able to visit the location of the crash, does not present an obstacle. "We now possess so much information that it is not necessary to examine the entire location of the crash. In fact, if we were to go there now, the focus of the investigation would be mostly on verification of the information that we already have seen for example on satellite or other materials" says Van der Weegen.

"The OVV has already collected a lot of information and we are confident that we'l be able to draw the first balanced conclusions based on the information currently available."

BBM

 

[ZaZara]

THE LEGAL PUZZLE OF MH17


The Economist explains the laws surrounding the crash of MH17
http://www.economist.com/blogs/econ...ins-20?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ee/legalpuzzleofMH17


A series of criminal investigations has been started by Ukrainian, Australian, American and Malaysian investigators as well as by the Dutch prosecutor. And figuring out what type of crime the downing of the aeroplane might amount to, which courts have jurisdiction, and what type of evidence would be needed to prosecute, will be hard. And that's before tackling the question of who was ultimately responsible for the downing of the plane. How will prosecutors sort through the legal puzzle of MH17?

One of the few things most legal experts agree on is that there are some 13 different jurisdictions under which both a criminal and a civil prosecution might fall. This includes the legal systems of the 11 nationalities of the victims (including the carrier country, Malaysia), along with Ukrainian law and international law. Because every country has slightly different provisions around prosecuting crimes committed against their nationals abroad, the 12 affected countries came together in The Hague this week to discuss co-ordinating their separate judicial efforts.

(...)

Rather than just figuring out who pulled the trigger, the investigation is likely to focus more on who may have aided and abetted the downing of the airliner. Specifically, some wonder whether the Russian state might be held accountable if it is in some way linked to the crash


BBM

 

[BJsleuth]

That statement isn't quite what the article says:

A four-page document released by the State Department seemed to show blast marks from where rockets were launched and craters where they landed. Officials said the images, which were sourced from the US director of national intelligence, showed heavy weapons fired between 21 July and 26 July, after the 17 July downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, over eastern Ukraine.
--
My bolding of dates.

Oops. This one has it as the headline. It was being reported on local news yesterday.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/493114/Film-shows-rockets-fired-from-Russia

 

[mck16]

So, why is nobody doing anything? Wonder what it would be like to have other "powers" in power. This is an act of terrorism! Russia had no business shooting into the W. Ukraine or, at an innocent plane for that matter.

I am wondering what would have happened if 2/3 of the victims had been from the U.S.

 

[Donamena]

I am wondering what would have happened if 2/3 of the victims had been from the U.S.

Mmmmm....$64,000 question...or does that make me too old?

 

[kimi_SFC]

Tweet from @AmbassadorPower (Verified Twitter Feed) - 8h

Separatists continue to interfere with #MH17 investigation & continue to shoot down Ukrainian aircraft — and #Russia continues to back them.

http://twitter.com/AmbassadorPower/status/494335415197761536

 

[kimi_SFC]

Tweet from @WSJ - 4h

A deconstruction of #MH17's crash sites using satellite photos and geolocated photos: http://t.co/MM40WhF3WE

http://t.co/R4DRZcZ9yo

http://twitter.com/WSJ/status/494335263326208002

 

[SouthAussie]

Here’s a bit of info that I was not previously aware of, and had never thought about, though of course it makes complete sense …… governments are paid a fee to allow airlines to use a flight path(s) over their country, and for the use of their air traffic control facilities.

Governments are paid lucrative overflight fees by airlines traversing their airspace and using their air traffic control facilities.

Those in regions of conflict, like Ukraine, are often strapped for cash and have a financial incentive to leave their airspace open as long as is practicable.

The Washington Post reported Ukraine earned $US200 million ($213 million) a year from such fees, based on information from a source with an organisation that keeps track of the charges.

Given Malaysia Airlines was operating within international guidelines in flying over the territory, it would seem fair for Ukraine to face large financial penalties.

That would send a message to other nations, like Syria, that there are financial consequences if airspace is kept open which outweigh the revenue received from overflight fees.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/avia...lacial-pace-20140730-zyg2l.html#ixzz38vR4Yduz

 

[kimi_SFC]

Via CBCNews.ca Mobile:

CBCNews.ca: Malaysia Airlines MH17: Michael Bociurkiw talks about being first at the crash site

Michael Bociurkiw was among the very first people to reach the Malaysian jet's wreckage

Jul 29, 2014 10:05 PM ET
CBC News

OSCE monitor on MH17 disaster
A personal handwritten note penned by a passenger reminding themselves to stay on budget during their vacation. Scientific literature belonging to a passenger en route to a major international AIDS conference in Australia.

(snip)

These are just a few of the things that Michael Bociurkiw, a Ukrainian-Canadian monitor with the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), has seen up close at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.

Bociurkiw and one other colleague were the first international monitors to reach the wreckage after the jet was shot down over a rebel-held region of eastern Ukraine July 17.

With no other oversight on scene, the two men became the de facto eyes and ears of all those who watched in horror from around the world. More than ten days later, he's still
one of a select group of individuals who has been to crash site almost daily.

"Under the hot sun, we've seen horrific things," he told CBC's Susan Ormiston in an
emotional interview Monday. "Things that we'll never talk about to anyone else."

"One of the things that's powered us through this is is knowing that we are doing it for the families. In a conflict zone – where there's no security, where anything could happen – anything we can do to provide some semblance of order and process ...
that was really important to us," Bociurkiw said.

Although he's only been on the job with the OSCE for three months, Bociurkiw has been unexpectedly thrust into an international crisis that has no satisfying conclusion within sight.

Watch the video above for more of CBC's in-depth interview with Bociurkiw from Ukraine.

Embedded videos @ link:

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/#!/content/1.2721007

ETA:
non-mobile link:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malays...about-being-first-at-the-crash-site-1.2721007

 

[kimi_SFC]

Tweet from @SivaG (of @AsiaReuters) - 52m

Fantastic stuff from @JonOstrower "Map of a Tragedy: How #MH17 Came Apart Over Ukraine" http://t.co/W7R4tLqISG #MH17 via @WSJGraphics

http://twitter.com/SivaG/status/494358852951744514

(snip)

The crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 has been extraordinarily public. Investigators of aircraft accidents typically cordon off the scene immediately after a crash, and tightly control access for media and others to avoid disturbing the debris.

Because Flight 17 fell in a war zone —across farm fields and homes near where pro-Russia separatists are fighting the Ukraine government — control of the wreckage has been chaotic, and the comparatively sanitized photos typically released by aviation safety officials have been replaced by thousands of images distributed across wire services and social media.

Mapping that wreckage is intended to illustrate how Flight 17 may have come down and the geographical challenges of conducting an investigation in a war zone.

 

[kimi_SFC]

Tweet from @BBCNewsGraphics - 22h

The human cost of the #MH17 crash. Faces and details of the 298 who lost their lives http://t.co/VvwKG6uIeE
http://t.co/WzZGckyI5c

http://twitter.com/BBCNewsGraphics/status/494357767147499520



:rose:

 

[Elley Mae]

I am wondering what would have happened if 2/3 of the victims had been from the U.S.

I've got a blank.

 

[ZaZara]

Tweet from @WSJ - 4h

A deconstruction of #MH17's crash sites using satellite photos and geolocated photos: http://t.co/MM40WhF3WE

http://t.co/R4DRZcZ9yo

http://twitter.com/WSJ/status/494335263326208002

"MAP OF A TRAGEDY"

Who would have imagined that the investigators have still not been able to reach the location of the crash?
This is an open source investigation, it is amazing what can be done when people put things together.

http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/?standalone=1



The Daily Beast reported a week (!) ago:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...irst-open-source-air-crash-investigation.html

MH17 Is the World’s First Open-Source Air Crash Investigation
Without access to the site, reporters, social media, and governments put together pieces of the puzzle. Try as they did, there’s no way the rebels could conceal what happened.

As U.S. intelligence officials briefed reporters on the downing of Malaysia Flight 17 over Ukraine they were reflecting a striking fact: This air crash investigation is being conducted by an entirely new method—detailed scrutiny by journalists, social media and open-sourced intelligence from national agencies.

It almost seems that an “official” investigation will be redundant. To an extent never seen before, a combination of on-the-ground reporting, instant social media coverage, military intelligence and expert analysis is providing a remarkably complete forensic picture of what happened.

It is precisely because the wreckage of the Boeing 777 fell into a lawless land where the immediate normal quarantining of a crash site was not possible that an investigation “by any other possible means” has been put together, spontaneously and driven by a collective will to protect the truth.


BBM

 

[ZaZara]

OSCE CANNOT REACH CRASH SITE TODAY

Just another day ....

RTL-News (and others report that the OSCE has once again not reached the crash site:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/verkenningsmissie-ovse-naar-rampplek-afgebroken

Translation:

The delegation of the OSCE who left this morning from Donetsk to explore the disaster area of flight MH17, have returned empty-handed.

This was reported by RTL News reporter Jaap van Deurzen, who was traveling with the OSCE observers. After intensive consultations with armed rebels, a small group of OSCDE went on their way to the crash site to asess if the conditions would allow further investigation.

The cars of the organization were stopped by the rebels on the front line. In the area today fights are ongoing between the pro-Russian rebels and the Ukrainian government army. In the distance, sounds of shelling were heard.




Alexander Hug, leader of OSCE this morning....

Picture: ANP

 

[SouthAussie]

OSCE CANNOT REACH CRASH SITE TODAY

The delegation of the OSCE who left this morning from Donetsk to explore the disaster area of flight MH17, have returned empty-handed.

Alexander Hug, leader of OSCE this morning....

Picture: ANP

These guys must be so tired of trying and trying to get into the crash zone .. that is a very telling photo.

And here is a similar one - of Australian Federal Police mission Commander Brian McDonald.

Head of Australian Federal Police mission Commander Brian McDonald touches his face after returning to Donetsk.

When asked about the Australian determination to recover the remains of the dead, rebel checkpoint leader Aleksandr Levchenko shrugged his shoulders. “There’s a war – but as soon as the fighting is over the foreigners will be able to collect the dead.”

But speaking at his hilltop post halfway between Donetsk, the regional centre and the crash site, he told Fairfax Media: “Kiev refuses to respect its own exclusion zone and I understand that Australia wants to get the bodies – we would feel the same way about our dead. They should have a dignified burial according to their many national customs.”

http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-at...australians-20140729-zy9j4.html#ixzz38wrYAPwp

 

[kimi_SFC]

WARNING: Contains graphic details

Fighting Cuts Off Access to Ukraine Air Crash Site - NYTimes.com

29 July 2014
(snip)

This village, where the cockpit fell in a field and pancaked — and where many bodies landed — was still contested on Tuesday, a day when fighting also raged in a half-dozen other cities in eastern Ukraine.

Two white, bullet-riddled minivans, the type often commandeered by separatists, sat on the main street here, apparently having fallen into an ambush. Flies buzzed in their bloody interiors, which contained bandages and empty disinfectant bottles.

“Don’t go any farther,” said a separatist driving a black Mercedes sedan with bullet holes in its rear window. The Ukrainians were nearby, he said.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/3...-crash-site.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0&referrer=

 

[SouthAussie]

“The enemy is throwing everything it has into the battle to complete encirclement of the DNR,” Igor Strelkov, a Muscovite rebel commander, told journalists in Donetsk yesterday evening, referring to the self-proclaimed “Donetsk People’s Republic”.

A rebel source in Donetsk said reinforcements including military equipment and fighters had arrived across the nearby border from Russia into Ukraine. Reuters was not able to confirm that independently.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...w-economic-sanctions-against-russia-1.1881528

 

[ZaZara]

SEPARATISTS RAPIDLY LOSING TERRITORY

NRC-Handelsblad has made a map.
http://www.nrc.nl/


Red spot Grabovo is where MH17 crashed on July 17
Green corridor is area released by separatists.

Black arrows: Offensief = attack by Ukraine Forces

Shaded area, light orange area and orange area combined: held by separatists on July 18
Light orange area and orange area combined: held by separatists on July 23
Orange area: held by separatists on July 28
Dotted line in orange area: held by separatists on July 29

Torez where OSCE and Investigation Mission are staying, is now in the front line.