Man Dragged off United Airlines/Flight Overbooked, April 2017

[Rocco]

Their policy only allowed them to refuse boarding, it never allowed them to remove a boarded passenger. It seems they are going to make the language more clear, set a time limit for when crew members must be booked on a flight, and to disallow LE to be contacted to remove passengers who aren't immediate security threats. The policy language was posted here many times, it only allowed them to deny boarding. That part of the policy is not being changed, they are just no longer going to allow that policy to be violated I guess.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/16/us/united-passengers-removal.html?_r=0

If their new policy says:

'United Airlines, which is reviewing its policies after the violent removal of a passenger from a flight last week, says it will no longer allow employees to take the place of civilian passengers who have already boarded overbooked flights.'

Then what did their old policy state?

If I'm not going to let my dog run loose anymore, what was my dog doing previously?

Does anyone have a link to the actual policy as stated by United? Not a link to a media source that states their policy or someone stating their policy, the actual United policy in black and white.

 

[CARIIS]

Their policy only allowed them to refuse boarding, it never allowed them to remove a boarded passenger. It seems they are going to make the language more clear, set a time limit for when crew members must be booked on a flight, and to disallow LE to be contacted to remove passengers who aren't immediate security threats. The policy language was posted here many times, it only allowed them to deny boarding. That part of the policy is not being changed, they are just no longer going to allow that policy to be violated I guess.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/16/us/united-passengers-removal.html?_r=0

I knew this was gonna happen - bunch of stupidies the last time this happened was on Hitler Airlines -- changing rules on something that never has happened before

nor without these rules would not happen again --- it was a chain of events that were not handled and spiraled out that is it

I truly believe that airlines do not need to add a training segment on the reasons why you ought not to knock out two teeth on a passenger, avoid making passengers bleed , give our customers serious concussions, traumatize fellow customers

Flight crew Training test PSY 1247) :

List three reasons why it is not a good idea to knock out any of our passenger's teeth (be specific)

Outline the impact on our load factors ?

Outline 4 reasons why making passenger bleed is not ideal (again be specific)

What are the possible dangers of dragging passengers off of one of our single isle aircraft that resembles taking prisoners of war?

List four actions you could take when officials board your aircraft and begin to physically assault one of our customers? ( You must include the word "STOP" in your answer for full credit!)



Explain the benefits of increasing the incentives for our customers to peacefully give up their seat.

Outline the cues you should take note of when one of our customers starts yelling at the top of his/her lungs?

Bonus question: What is the ideal choice when seeing a customer of yours escalating to a concerning level. (Please include in-depth analysis of the benefits of locating a less agitated customer to complete the task at hand)


-jezzz

 

[Rocco]

I knew this was gonna happen - bunch of stupidies the last time this happened was on Hitler Airlines -- changing rules on something that never has happened before

nor without these rules would not happen again --- it was a chain of events that were not handled and spiraled out that is it

I truly believe that airlines do not need to add a training segment on the reasons why you ought not to knock out two teeth on a passenger, avoid making passengers bleed , give our customers serious concussions, traumatize fellow customers

Flight crew Training test PSY 1247) :

List three reasons why it is not a good idea to knock out any of our passenger's teeth (be specific)

Outline the impact on our load factors ?

Outline 4 reasons why making passenger bleed is not ideal (again be specific)

What are the possible dangers of dragging passengers off of one of our single isle aircraft that resembles taking prisoners of war?

List four actions you could take when officials board your aircraft and begin to physically assault one of our customers? ( You must include the word "STOP" in your answer for full credit!)

Explain the benefits of increasing the incentives for our customers to peacefully give up their seat.

Bonus question: What is the ideal choice when seeing a customer of yours escalating to a concerning level. (Please include in-depth analysis of the benefits of locating a less agitated customer to complete the task at hand)


-jezzz

You crack me up, Caris. Your posts are always so well thought out---I always enjoy reading them.

 

[CARIIS]

If their new policy says:

'United Airlines, which is reviewing its policies after the violent removal of a passenger from a flight last week, says it will no longer allow employees to take the place of civilian passengers who have already boarded overbooked flights.'

Then what did their old policy state?

If I'm not going to let my dog run loose anymore, what was my dog doing previously?



Does anyone have a link to the actual policy as stated by United? Not a link to a media source that states their policy or someone stating their policy, the actual United policy in black and white.

TY the real concern here is that the masses now say ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[CARIIS]

You crack me up, Caris. Your posts are always so well thought out---I always enjoy reading them.

Yours for me as well my friend --- god how did we become such a moronic nation??

 

[CARIIS]

Exactly, and at least in this case no one was injured physically thank goodness and it was sorted out. But it will probably make people think twice about flying with UA, and may try to avoid that in future. Not good for their image i imagine.

Respectfully disagree! Americas attn span is 4.6 days per event. It will all proceed. Fares, mileage points, 97.25 of the population has no clue about this.

United stocks might go thro a dash of changes for the next week or so .

None are giving up their mileage stuff, there pricing needs etc etc

If it gets bad all they have to do for the next two weeks, in markets where they are seeing a response is drop fares, couple weeks all is well

IMO there is no impact on them

ahh in this day and age he had to respond he did so , in terms of any financial impact (they know this) nothing

 

[frisson]

The media is still reporting the story wrong. It was not overbooked. Nor did it have anything to with United Airlines staff.

My device won't open the links. Can you give me a recap? I was just reading here and understood that it was overbooked. Sorry I misspoke. So what was the reason for removing him if it was not overbooked? He was not acting out or violent, or otherwise making a problem etc was he? TIA.

 

[frisson]

How one dressed to fly before 1978!

Forgot all images Google


Today

Oh my.... it reminds me of George Carlin's bit (gone too soon) in which he said that flying has changed. He lamented that he was seated next to the guy with a yellow toenail, wearing flipflops, drinking 8 Kahlua and vodkas, and wearing an "eff you" hat.

 

[Hraefn]

If their new policy says:

'United Airlines, which is reviewing its policies after the violent removal of a passenger from a flight last week, says it will no longer allow employees to take the place of civilian passengers who have already boarded overbooked flights.'

Then what did their old policy state?

If I'm not going to let my dog run loose anymore, what was my dog doing previously?

Does anyone have a link to the actual policy as stated by United? Not a link to a media source that states their policy or someone stating their policy, the actual United policy in black and white.

Here are the policies as updated February 17, 2017. The new ones have not been published yet; I'm assuming they are still working on the changes and will likely have to go through the corporate process for approving the changes before publishing them.

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx

Of relevance here:

RULE 5 CANCELLATION OF RESERVATIONS
...
G. All of UA’s flights are subject to overbooking which could result in UA’s inability to provide previously confirmed reserved space for a given flight or for the class of service reserved. In that event, UA’s obligation to the Passenger is governed by Rule 25.
...
RULE 25 DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION
A. Denied Boarding (U.S.A./Canadian Flight Origin) - When there is an Oversold UA flight that originates in the U.S.A. or Canada, the following provisions apply:
1. Request for Volunteers
a. UA will request Passengers who are willing to relinquish their confirmed reserved space in exchange for compensation in an amount determined by UA (including but not limited to check or an electronic travel certificate). The travel certificate will be valid only for travel on UA or designated Codeshare partners for one year from the date of issue and will have no refund value. If a Passenger is asked to volunteer, UA will not later deny boarding to that Passenger involuntarily unless that Passenger was informed at the time he was asked to volunteer that there was a possibility of being denied boarding involuntarily and of the amount of compensation to which he/she would have been entitled in that event. The request for volunteers and the selection of such person to be denied space will be in a manner determined solely by UA.
2. Boarding Priorities - If a flight is Oversold, no one may be denied boarding against his/her will until UA or other carrier personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservations willingly in exchange for compensation as determined by UA. If there are not enough volunteers, other Passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in accordance with UA’s boarding priority:
a. Passengers who are Qualified Individuals with Disabilities, unaccompanied minors under the age of 18 years, or minors between the ages of 5 to 15 years who use the unaccompanied minor service, will be the last to be involuntarily denied boarding if it is determined by UA that such denial would constitute a hardship.
b. The priority of all other confirmed passengers may be determined based on a passenger’s fare class, itinerary, status of frequent flyer program membership, and the time in which the passenger presents him/herself for check-in without advanced seat assignment.
...

ETA: Their policy only says they may deny boarding. It does not say they may remove someone who has been boarded.

 

[LaneGirl]

My device won't open the links. Can you give me a recap? I was just reading here and understood that it was overbooked. Sorry I misspoke. So what was the reason for removing him if it was not overbooked? He was not acting out or violent, or otherwise making a problem etc was he? TIA.

The flight was full not overbooked. 4 Crew members came at the last minute and needed to get on the flight to make another flight in the destination city. So 4 paying customers were being booted for crew.

 

[Spellbound]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...es-policy-for-booking-crew-on-crowded-flights

United Continental Holdings Inc. has changed its policy on employee travel and will now ensure crews riding on its aircraft as passengers are booked at least 60 minutes before departure, according to a statement from the company


United crews previously could be booked on flights until the time of departure. The change will allow employees to bump passengers, if necessary, in the gate area to avoid what happened on Dao’s flight:


Bumping passengers is permitted by the U.S. Department of Transportation as long as airlines provide some compensation -- typically a voucher for future purchase -- and a seat on a later flight. If there aren’t enough volunteers, airlines can pick passengers -- on United, those who paid more for a ticket or fly frequently are less likely to be selected.

 

[frisson]

The flight was full not overbooked. 4 Crew members came at the last minute and needed to get on the flight to make another flight in the destination city. So 4 paying customers were being booted for crew.

Thank you. I guess I'm failing to understand the difference here between the two.

If there are not enough seats for everyone who is supposed to be on the flight - that screams to me " overbooked." But I'm clearly missing something in the semantics.

 

[flourish]

Thank you. I guess I'm failing to understand the difference here between the two.

If there are not enough seats for everyone who is supposed to be on the flight - that screams to me " overbooked." But I'm clearly missing something in the semantics.

I think the difference is passengers versus crew. There was one passenger per seat, then 4 crew members needed to get on, and that's where it all went to pot. I think.

All's I really know is that I do not fly often, am anxious when traveling (not scared just weird anxiety), and I always made the assumption (yeah yeah) that purchasing a ticket meant I got to go on the plane. Silly me thinking paying for a service involves getting the service lol. Ugh.

 

[Rocco]

Here are the policies as updated February 17, 2017. The new ones have not been published yet; I'm assuming they are still working on the changes and will likely have to go through the corporate process for approving the changes before publishing them.

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx

Of relevance here:


ETA: Their policy only says they may deny boarding. It does not say they may remove someone who has been boarded.

Excellent information. Thank you!

 

[LaneGirl]

Thank you. I guess I'm failing to understand the difference here between the two.

If there are not enough seats for everyone who is supposed to be on the flight - that screams to me " overbooked." But I'm clearly missing something in the semantics.

Overbooked means they sell the same seat twice. They use an algorithm in markets that have a high rate of no shows to sell the same seats. Basically every seat is sold but they sell the same seats "just in case".

A full flight means they have not oversold the seats. All seats have been paid for and accounted for.

CREW do not pay for seats they came at the last minute and said "hey we have to be in "destination city" so get me on this flight. Paying customers are now then bumped for last minute crew members.

ETA - there were exactly the number of seats for that which was "sold" crew do not purchase tickets.

 

[Karinna]

Respectfully disagree! Americas attn span is 4.6 days per event. It will all proceed. Fares, mileage points, 97.25 of the population has no clue about this.

United stocks might go thro a dash of changes for the next week or so .

None are giving up their mileage stuff, there pricing needs etc etc

If it gets bad all they have to do for the next two weeks, in markets where they are seeing a response is drop fares, couple weeks all is well

IMO there is no impact on them

ahh in this day and age he had to respond he did so , in terms of any financial impact (they know this) nothing

Yes of course. But who would fly UA unless they absolutely had to after this fiasco? I wouldn't lol. I have flown lots of times but never had any probs.

 

[Karinna]

Here are the policies as updated February 17, 2017. The new ones have not been published yet; I'm assuming they are still working on the changes and will likely have to go through the corporate process for approving the changes before publishing them.

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx

Of relevance here:


ETA: Their policy only says they may deny boarding. It does not say they may remove someone who has been boarded.

BBM, That's exactly how i read the law on it too.

 

[FelicityLemon]

Yes of course. But who would fly UA unless they absolutely had to after this fiasco? I wouldn't lol. I have flown lots of times but never had any probs.

I dunnooooo...:waitasec:

I'd still fly them because they're bound to be overly solicitous out of fear of exposure again.

That brings up something I've thought about for years and especially after the shoe bomber: Why no security cameras in place to protect both passengers and the airline employees? Along the lines of LE body cams. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

[evelezrn]

I'm sorry if this was previously addressed, but... In a situation where a flight actually does meet the critera as "FULLY booked", WHY is ANY airline allowed to OVERbook? If a passenger pays for a seat but fails to get to the airport to actually USE that seat, doesn't the airline keep their $$ anyway?

 

[Karinna]

I dunnooooo...:waitasec:

I'd still fly them because they're bound to be overly solicitous out of fear of exposure again.

That brings up something I've thought about for years and especially after the shoe bomber: Why no security cameras in place to protect both passengers and the airline employees? Along the lines of LE body cams. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Fair enough. Yes, good point about inflight cameras. And agree, it does seem like a no brainer.