Man Dragged off United Airlines/Flight Overbooked, April 2017

[Karinna]

I'm sorry if this was previously addressed, but... In a situation where a flight actually does meet the critera as "FULLY booked", WHY is ANY airline allowed to OVERbook? If a passenger pays for a seat but fails to get to the airport to actually USE that seat, doesn't the airline keep their $$ anyway?

I think they overbook just in case some passengers don't show up? But i think in this case from what other posters have said this particular flight wasn't overbooked. They dragged the Dr. off the plane to accomodate for 4 crew members.

 

[evelezrn]

I think they overbook just in case some passengers don't show up? But i think in this case from what other posters have said this particular flight wasn't overbooked. They dragged the Dr. off the plane to accomodate for 4 crew members.

True in THIS case that "overbooked" doesn't apply.

I was just wondering about other situations why overbooking is allowed. The airline keeps the $$ even if the passenger is a no show.

 

[Karinna]

True in THIS case that "overbooked" doesn't apply.

I was just wondering about other situations why overbooking is allowed. The airline keeps the $$ even if the passenger is a no show.

Here is an article that explains:
(quote)
Why and How Airlines Overbook Flights

A sometimes unfairly condemned activity that usually works to your advantage



The flipside of full flights can be an increased chance of finding yourself with no seat, due to the flight being oversold.

Part of a series on being bumped from flights, see the other articles in this series listed on the right.




Airlines are experiencing massively increased rates of involuntary denied boarding compared to earlier this decade, while at the same time, the proportion of passengers willing to voluntarily accept denied boarding has plummeted.

While you're still statistically unlikely to be involuntarily denied boarding, the ugly industry trends towards fewer and fuller flights could make the consequences of any such problem much harder for you to positively resolve.

This first part of our series on what is commonly referred to as 'bumping' puts these issues into their overall context.
http://thetravelinsider.info/airlinemismanagement/allaboutoverbookingflights.htm

 

[Karinna]

I do know from experience that if you purchase a ticket for an International flight and don't use it for the booked date, you get up to 12 months to use that ticket. It used to be like that anyway.
With in country flights i don't know if you can change the date of your flight and not have to re purchase again? Never been in that scenario.

 

[emirates1957]

Thank you. I guess I'm failing to understand the difference here between the two.

If there are not enough seats for everyone who is supposed to be on the flight - that screams to me " overbooked." But I'm clearly missing something in the semantics.

They were deadheading crew not crew on holiday travel. Deadheading crew over ride fare paying passengers, in order for them to pick up their duty and minimise delays.

 

[emirates1957]

I think they overbook just in case some passengers don't show up? But i think in this case from what other posters have said this particular flight wasn't overbooked. They dragged the Dr. off the plane to accomodate for 4 crew members.

The upside in overbooking .....if a flight is overbooked in economy it's normal practise to upgrade into Business and First Class, not unusual to upgrade 30 economy class pax.

 

[al66pine]

I know UA flight was not overbooked but posting this because of outcry about overbooking and various ppl calling for legislation to prohibit, restrict, otherwise regulate overbooking.

Is further regulation/legislation needed for this?
IIUC, passengers w tix who are denied boarding due to overbooking are in fact compensated in some ways - tix for next flight, and/or cash/check, and/or meals and lodging vouchers, and/or pass for later flight.
IOW they still have the opp. to fly to their destination and receive some $ compensation, in addition to getting there, but arriving later than they originally anticipated/scheduled.

Per linked info below *
--- 475,000 total or 0.07 percent of passengers were denied boarding because of overbooking.
--- 435,000 accepted ^ as compensation for voluntarily not flying as booked.
--- 40,000 were provided compensation for involuntarily not flying as booked.

^ Both sets of these passengers were compensated, w ~435,000 compensated w a satisfactory $ amt.
The other 40,000? IDK.

If 475,000 passengers, denied boarding b/c of overbooking, = 0.07 percent of all passengers in 2016, then of the ____ total US commercial airline passengers last year, ___ percent were involuntarily bumped.

Pls, someone do the ^ math. Anyone? TiA.

Seems imo the real issue was the manner of Dr Dao's removal from plane. JM2cts.


_____________________________________________________________________

"In the United States in 2016, around 475,000 passengers, or 0.07 per cent of travellers, were denied boarding due to overbooked flights. Of that, 40,000 ... involuntary....
"Delta Air Lines CEO ...saying its denied boarding rate was only about 1 in 100,000 passengers in 2016." bbm sbm
http://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/airlines-defend-overbooking-after-united-airlines-incident?xtor=CS1-10. Ap 14

 

[Karinna]

I guess there is a method to the madness so to speak. But from this link it explains it somewhat
(quote)
Let's first be clear on overbooking versus oversold. There are almost always no shows on a flight. Not all tickets are nonrefundable, so those may be changed just minutes before a flight is schedule to depart. In addition, since so many passengers make connections, there will always be the chance of people not making it to their scheduled flight at a transfer point.

A flight is overbooked if there are more reservations than seats. A flight is oversold if there are more ticketed passengers than seats. When a flight is oversold, some passengers will be unable to receive a seat assignment when they check in. (They will get what is called in airline lingo a priority verification card to clear security.)

Airlines have been allowed to overbook and even oversell flights by the US DOT (or whatever their governing body), but when they deny someone a seat, they must provide adequate compensation to the inconvenienced passengers. They are also allowed to re-accommodate other passengers who volunteer in order to free up seats for people who have paid reservations but no seat assignments.
http://www.trtworld.com/business/wh...rbook-flights-and-then-bump-passengers-334801

 

[Karinna]

I know UA flight was not overbooked but posting this because of outcry about overbooking and various ppl calling for legislation to prohibit, restrict, otherwise regulate overbooking.

Is further regulation/legislation needed for this?
IIUC, passengers w tix who are denied boarding due to overbooking are in fact compensated in some ways - tix for next flight, and/or cash/check, and/or meals and lodging vouchers, and/or pass for later flight.
IOW they still have the opp. to fly to their destination and receive some $ compensation, in addition to getting there, but arriving later than they originally anticipated/scheduled.

Per linked info below *
--- 475,000 total or 0.07 percent of passengers were denied boarding because of overbooking.
--- 435,000 accepted ^ as compensation for voluntarily not flying as booked.
--- 40,000 were provided compensation for involuntarily not flying as booked.

^ Both sets of these passengers were compensated, w ~435,000 compensated w a satisfactory $ amt.
The other 40,000? IDK.

If 475,000 passengers, denied boarding b/c of overbooking, = 0.07 percent of all passengers in 2016, then of the ____ total US commercial airline passengers last year, ___ percent were involuntarily bumped.

Pls, someone do the ^ math. Anyone? TiA.

Seems imo the real issue was the manner of Dr Dao's removal from plane. JM2cts.


_____________________________________________________________________

"In the United States in 2016, around 475,000 passengers, or 0.07 per cent of travellers, were denied boarding due to overbooked flights. Of that, 40,000 ... involuntary....
"Delta Air Lines CEO ...saying its denied boarding rate was only about 1 in 100,000 passengers in 2016." bbm sbm
http://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/airlines-defend-overbooking-after-united-airlines-incident?xtor=CS1-10. Ap 14

Sorry, not good at math, LOL. But i agree that it was because of this particular incident with Dr. Dao and the way he was removed, IMO like some kind of criminal, after boarding his flight and was seated, and hence the outrage. And rightly so.

 

[evelezrn]

I guess there is a method to the madness so to speak. But from this link it explains it somewhat
(quote)
Let's first be clear on overbooking versus oversold. There are almost always no shows on a flight. Not all tickets are nonrefundable, so those may be changed just minutes before a flight is schedule to depart. In addition, since so many passengers make connections, there will always be the chance of people not making it to their scheduled flight at a transfer point.

A flight is overbooked if there are more reservations than seats. A flight is oversold if there are more ticketed passengers than seats. When a flight is oversold, some passengers will be unable to receive a seat assignment when they check in. (They will get what is called in airline lingo a priority verification card to clear security.)

Airlines have been allowed to overbook and even oversell flights by the US DOT (or whatever their governing body), but when they deny someone a seat, they must provide adequate compensation to the inconvenienced passengers. They are also allowed to re-accommodate other passengers who volunteer in order to free up seats for people who have paid reservations but no seat assignments.
http://www.trtworld.com/business/wh...rbook-flights-and-then-bump-passengers-334801

Now I get it. Thanks Katrina. When you explained overbooked vs. oversold, it suddenly clicked for me. I wasn't even thinking about what happens when flights don't make their connections. Thanks for explaining it so well.

 

[Karinna]

Now I get it. Thanks Katrina. When you explained overbooked vs. oversold, it suddenly clicked for me. I wasn't even thinking about what happens when flights don't make their connections. Thanks for explaining it so well.

You're very welcome,

 

[JohnPaul]

Yes of course. But who would fly UA unless they absolutely had to after this fiasco?

honestly this incident wouldn't change my flight bookings in the future in any way whatsoever, i have flown UA before many times,

i don't really have a "carrier of preference" so to speak, i normally go with the times, dates , and prices that suit me best when i look for a flight, i fly about 12-15 times per year,

if i was booking a flight in the near future and UA had a convenient flight at a reasonable price i wouldn't think twice about it, i would book it,

this incident really could have happened on any flight with any carrier, UA just got unlucky because this man was on their plane,

UA flight attendants, gate attendants, employees, etc etc are not the ones to blame, they are not the ones removing the passenger from the plane,

It is airport security and/or LE removing the man, not UA employees, the same thing would have happened if this man was on another carriers plane and refused to leave,

UA tells airport security they need a passenger removed from the plane and LE/security deal with it from there,

<mod snip>

 

[Rocco]

I know UA flight was not overbooked but posting this because of outcry about overbooking and various ppl calling for legislation to prohibit, restrict, otherwise regulate overbooking.

Is further regulation/legislation needed for this?
IIUC, passengers w tix who are denied boarding due to overbooking are in fact compensated in some ways - tix for next flight, and/or cash/check, and/or meals and lodging vouchers, and/or pass for later flight.
IOW they still have the opp. to fly to their destination and receive some $ compensation, in addition to getting there, but arriving later than they originally anticipated/scheduled.

Per linked info below *
--- 475,000 total or 0.07 percent of passengers were denied boarding because of overbooking.
--- 435,000 accepted ^ as compensation for voluntarily not flying as booked.
--- 40,000 were provided compensation for involuntarily not flying as booked.

^ Both sets of these passengers were compensated, w ~435,000 compensated w a satisfactory $ amt.
The other 40,000? IDK.

If 475,000 passengers, denied boarding b/c of overbooking, = 0.07 percent of all passengers in 2016, then of the ____ total US commercial airline passengers last year, ___ percent were involuntarily bumped.

Pls, someone do the ^ math. Anyone? TiA.

Seems imo the real issue was the manner of Dr Dao's removal from plane. JM2cts.


_____________________________________________________________________

"In the United States in 2016, around 475,000 passengers, or 0.07 per cent of travellers, were denied boarding due to overbooked flights. Of that, 40,000 ... involuntary....
"Delta Air Lines CEO ...saying its denied boarding rate was only about 1 in 100,000 passengers in 2016." bbm sbm
http://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/airlines-defend-overbooking-after-united-airlines-incident?xtor=CS1-10. Ap 14

According to this link: Through 2016, the United States will continue to be the largest single market for domestic passengers (710.2 million).

http://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/Pages/2012-12-06-01.aspx

475,000 passengers denied boarding divided by 710,200,000 total passengers is .000668 or .0668 percent---I assume they rounded up to .07 percent

40,000 passengers involuntarily bumped divided by 710,200,000 total passengers is .0000563 or .00563%

So here's your statement with the blanks filled in:

If 475,000 passengers, denied boarding b/c of overbooking, = 0.07 percent of all passengers in 2016, then of the 710,200,000 total US commercial airline passengers last year, .0000563 passengers or .00563 percent were involuntarily bumped.

 

[CARIIS]

I guess there is a method to the madness so to speak. But from this link it explains it somewhat
(quote)
Let's first be clear on overbooking versus oversold. There are almost always no shows on a flight. Not all tickets are nonrefundable, so those may be changed just minutes before a flight is schedule to depart. In addition, since so many passengers make connections, there will always be the chance of people not making it to their scheduled flight at a transfer point.

A flight is overbooked if there are more reservations than seats. A flight is oversold if there are more ticketed passengers than seats. When a flight is oversold, some passengers will be unable to receive a seat assignment when they check in. (They will get what is called in airline lingo a priority verification card to clear security.)

Airlines have been allowed to overbook and even oversell flights by the US DOT (or whatever their governing body), but when they deny someone a seat, they must provide adequate compensation to the inconvenienced passengers. They are also allowed to re-accommodate other passengers who volunteer in order to free up seats for people who have paid reservations but no seat assignments.
http://www.trtworld.com/business/wh...rbook-flights-and-then-bump-passengers-334801

TY I learned much from your post!

 

[CARIIS]

Fair enough. Yes, good point about inflight cameras. And agree, it does seem like a no brainer.

It does seem so ! Everything is weight. Sounds silly but if you add a pint of fuel burn per ( x 2)hour to move that weight, for millions of miles it actually adds up!!

 

[CARIIS]

I'm sorry if this was previously addressed, but... In a situation where a flight actually does meet the critera as "FULLY booked", WHY is ANY airline allowed to OVERbook? If a passenger pays for a seat but fails to get to the airport to actually USE that seat, doesn't the airline keep their $$ anyway?

I think it is a hangover from the days when all tickets were refundable, changeable etc etc

When flying was fun exciting and rarely ended feeling as if you were about to have a heart attack as a result of getting from your car seat to your airplane seat !!

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

United CEO says no one will be fired for dragging incident

https://www.yahoo.com/news/united-ceo-says-no-one-162214777.html

The CEO of United Airlines says no one will be fired over the dragging of a man off a plane &#8212; including himself.

CEO Oscar Munoz said Tuesday that he takes full responsibility "for making this right," and he promised more details later this month after United finishes a review of its policies on overbooked flights.

"It was a system failure across various areas," Munoz continued. "There was never a consideration for firing an employee."

 

[CARIIS]

My device won't open the links. Can you give me a recap? I was just reading here and understood that it was overbooked. Sorry I misspoke. So what was the reason for removing him if it was not overbooked? He was not acting out or violent, or otherwise making a problem etc was he? TIA.

The flight was full. We have not heard anything about agents having to reticket passengers for that flight where there were no seats left on the aircraft.

IMO the core responsibility for the onset of the mess was Rebubician not (as far as we know) checking in with gate agent to see if there were still seats on the plane with no bodies in them!

Security then did everything wrong.

 

[emirates1957]

Yes of course. But who would fly UA unless they absolutely had to after this fiasco? I wouldn't lol. I have flown lots of times but never had any probs.

Hear what your saying, many will still fly with UA for various reasons, fares and schedules. Crew integrity in tact.

 

[emirates1957]

True in THIS case that "overbooked" doesn't apply.

I was just wondering about other situations why overbooking is allowed. The airline keeps the $$ even if the passenger is a no show.

It depends what type of ticket it is. There maybe a rebooking fee attached to it. Also a pax maybe a no-show due to sickness in the family whereby insurance will cover airfares in certain circumstances.