Manorville Bodies: A Second Killer? Latest Remains found 02/17/2012

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Have not read anything that indicate staging for the AC4, GB4, or manorville victims.

In light of early reports, it does appear the AC4 victims may have been "posed" ( link ). Importantly, posing indicates a psychological component. For example, the missing shoes, facing east, bit, could be reflective of religious overtones related to the killer's belief system. This sort of posing could also be the killer's signature. As it is something that is specific to this particular killer. The MO could arguably be the process by which the killer attained his victims and the strangulation thereof.

The GB4, otoh, do not appear to have been either staged or posed. That they were wrapped in burlap could be nothing more than utilitarian. The MO would arguably be convincing the victims to leave their cell phones behind. The killer's signature, that which is necessary to complete the ritual, would be the phone calls. In this case, the killer needs to reach out to the victim's loved ones to complete his ritual.

As for manorville? I could not find anything that indicated either posing or staging. If reports are to be believed, however, that "more than a dozen dismembered women have been found in the past decade" ( link ), then the manorville's MO is quite well established: dismemberment.

As for the male? In light of reports he died a violent death and was a cross dresser ( link ), one can surmise his death likely involved an enraged john who found out at the last minute the woman he hired was really a man.

As for the mother and child. That one is a tough one. One could argue staging, in that the they were purposefully placed some distance from each other: the goal being to throw LE off. Which is what staging is about. Since the child death is not considered a homicide ( link ) *and* she was wrapped in a blanket, it is quite plausible that she died of natural causes. This, however, doesn't explain how not only she, but her mother, ended up discarded along ocean parkway.

That said, and all things considered, I tend to agree with Peter: that there are multiple killers at work. Whether we're looking at tandem killers (ala competition)? Doubtful. However, I do think he has a point wrt the manorville killer hearing about the findings in December, then discarding his victims remains at first thaw in March.
 
The assumption, LISK is white, is based on two things:
The "White dude" testimony from Melissa's little sister after the phone calls he made. Which isn't conclusive in the first place because an half-way educated African-American wouldn't sound different.
The thing commonly believed to be knowledge, that serial killers are typically white aka Caucasian. Which is just result of another misused statistics.

RSBM. You are correct in that you can't reliably tell someone's race over the phone. But "sounding black" has nothing to do with education; it is cultural.

I don't mean to nitpick but I can't let this kind of thing go by.
 
When I have read speculative comments about the SK being black, my thought has been that a black man hanging out in OB at 5 in the morning and parked on Ocean Parkway would be very conspicuous. Since I am not a local, maybe I am wrong.
 
Snowstar

Here is a closeup of the skeletal remains of the GB4 victims.

The text says thise skeletal remains were found December 13, 2010.

"Investigators discover a body at Gilgo Beach (December 13, 2010)"

http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-gilgo-beach-body-identified,0,5543273.story




here is info on when the 4GB victims were found:

Found Dec 11, 2010:
Melissa Barthelemy

Found Dec 13, 2010:
Amber Lynn Costello
Maureen Brainard-Barnes
Megan Waterman
 

Attachments

  • 58255752.gif
    58255752.gif
    306 KB · Views: 31
Snowstar

Here is a closeup of the skeletal remains of the GB4 victims.

The text says thise skeletal remains were found December 13, 2010.

"Investigators discover a body at Gilgo Beach (December 13, 2010)"

http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-gilgo-beach-body-identified,0,5543273.story




here is info on when the 4GB victims were found:

Found Dec 11, 2010:
Melissa Barthelemy

Found Dec 13, 2010:
Amber Lynn Costello
Maureen Brainard-Barnes
Megan Waterman
Thanks for finding that pic. I looked and looked for it but had no luck!
 
That's the skull that doesn't look real. It looks like a Halloween mask.
 
I belive this is the image you were looking for:


ATLANTICskeletonremainsFromTheEastboundStranglerdarkMindsFeb12012.jpg



Here is a link to the "Dark Minds" episode "The Eastbound Strangler" about the Atlantic City Serial killer case:

The Eastbound Strangler - YouTube


At 0:19 -0:22 in the "Dark Minds" episode "The Eastbound Strangler" about the Atlantic City Serial killer case, they show skeleton remains (it is a live vidoe clip) , but I´m 99,99 % sure that those remains shown are one of the GB4 Long Island, Gilgo Beach victims.
WHY they show a videoclip of one of the LI GB4 victims remains, and pretend that it is one of the AC victims, we can only guess!
IMO it is either bad/bad taste/embarrassing journalism, OR it was done on purpos to anoy the killer in order to try make him react/contacting Dark Minds or somthing like that?.

Either way I belive this is the image you were looking for.

And by BTW none of the AC victims were decomposed to the stage of skeleton remains when they were found, ALL victims had only been missing for maximum ca 6 weeks when found. The first victims who went missing was Molly Dilts, missing since Oct 7th 2006, and they were found Nov 20, 2006.
Thanks! Yes, this is the one I was looking for! Thank you again!
 
The problem I am having with the baby is, why were the baby and the mother dumped in separate locations? And the baby placed close to a different victim as the mother?
Lets say there were no other bodies found but the mother and baby. What would that mean to investigators?
So now lets add the scenerio thet the mother and baby were not killed by the SK. Is it just chance about the locations in relation tho the SK dumping grounds?
Finally, lets add in that the mother and baby are victims of the SK. Why were the baby and the mother dumped in separate locations? And the baby placed close to a different victim as the mother?
Using the final scenerio and the most likely, from what LE says is most likely the case, is that the mother and baby are victims of the SK. Is the baby a message to show LE that the two female adult victims are connected to the same killer? Could the baby be the clue to the one SK theory for LE?

The simple answer is that they didn't die at the same time. That is why the bodies are not in the same place.
 
Lets put your logic to a test:

Scenario A: Mother dies years before the baby
How long do you think, can a child that little survive without mother? Not long unless the child is found alive in time by others and taken care fore. But in that case, we would have somewhere an article of a child found somewhere who's mother has gone missing and this case would have been linked to this murder case a long time ago. So we know, the baby didn't die "years apart" from the mother in this direction.

Scenario B: Baby died years before the mother
You would think, the mother would have reported the child missing. Which, since it would be not a regular missing persons report but a child, caused Amber alerts, press attention, big search operations, the whole shebang. We would have found by now old articles in the news archives. We didn't.

So to assume, the times of death are at best hours apart form each other is the logical assumption. Of course, it's an assumption, but then, all other options are impossible.

Scenario A: The father looks after the kid until it dies as well and is disposed of in the general area (which is obviously a good spot to do this).

Scenario B: The mother is involved in the kids death in some way and has no incentive to report anything. Then, when she dies, she too is disposed of in the general area (which is obviously a good spot to do this).
 
How about: Wanted or needed to kill the mother. Had to kill child too keep mother from being missed. Mother would have had to be someone with no relatives to miss her. Perhaps someone from a foreign country? SK probably would have had more information on her than the other victims. I think TS is right--there was a personal connection between SK and victim. Maybe he instinctively and illogically separated the mother and child to indicate the child was different, not meant to be killed.
 
Have not read anything that indicate staging for the AC4, GB4, or manorville victims.

In light of early reports, it does appear the AC4 victims may have been "posed" ( link ). Importantly, posing indicates a psychological component. For example, the missing shoes, facing east, bit, could be reflective of religious overtones related to the killer's belief system. This sort of posing could also be the killer's signature. As it is something that is specific to this particular killer. The MO could arguably be the process by which the killer attained his victims and the strangulation thereof.

The GB4, otoh, do not appear to have been either staged or posed. That they were wrapped in burlap could be nothing more than utilitarian. The MO would arguably be convincing the victims to leave their cell phones behind. The killer's signature, that which is necessary to complete the ritual, would be the phone calls. In this case, the killer needs to reach out to the victim's loved ones to complete his ritual.

As for manorville? I could not find anything that indicated either posing or staging. If reports are to be believed, however, that "more than a dozen dismembered women have been found in the past decade" ( link ), then the manorville's MO is quite well established: dismemberment.

As for the male? In light of reports he died a violent death and was a cross dresser ( link ), one can surmise his death likely involved an enraged john who found out at the last minute the woman he hired was really a man.

As for the mother and child. That one is a tough one. One could argue staging, in that the they were purposefully placed some distance from each other: the goal being to throw LE off. Which is what staging is about. Since the child death is not considered a homicide ( link ) *and* she was wrapped in a blanket, it is quite plausible that she died of natural causes. This, however, doesn't explain how not only she, but her mother, ended up discarded along ocean parkway.

That said, and all things considered, I tend to agree with Peter: that there are multiple killers at work. Whether we're looking at tandem killers (ala competition)? Doubtful. However, I do think he has a point wrt the manorville killer hearing about the findings in December, then discarding his victims remains at first thaw in March.

I would like to add my thoughts on what I belive might connect the AC and the 4GB victims.


AC4, Nov 2006: 4 prositutes killed and dumped 4 in a row

GB4 2007/2010: 4 prositutes killed and dumped 4 in a row

ATLANTICACandLIvictimsfoundmap.jpg




IMO the AC4 and GB4 are significat lookalikes:

ATLANTICAC4andGB4aresignificantlookalikes.jpg



IMHO the killer possibly choose the GB4 victims through Craigs List, by LOOKS, because he wanted them to be look-alikes of the AC4 victims.

Kim Raffo- Amber Costello

Barbara Breidor- Maureen Brainer-Barnes

Molly Jean Dilts – Megan Waterman

Tracy Ann Roberts- Melissa Barthelemy



IMO the SK copied:

numbers of victims, 4 victims

sex of victims, all woman

type of victims, all prostitutes

looks of the victims

the way he killed the victims
the way he dumped the victims





I belive the AC4 SK was on "a mission"
I belive the GB4 SK is on "a mission"

IMO His "mission" is motivated by his hatered towards prostituetes.
He IMO possibly hates prostitutes because he feels that they ruin the lives of their loved once, husbands/boyfriends and children.
He IMO possibly saw himself as a victim of a woman who let him, and their children, down by choosing to become a prostituet
He IMO want to punish/eliminate prostituets and scare other girls/woman/mothers from become prostitutes.
I belive this is possibly what got him started, in Atlantic City
He IMO then became obsessed by the actual killing and the power it made him feel.
After the AC4 "mission" he possibly developed into a combined mission SK and a lust SK.

Both the AC4 and the GB4 murders seems, to some degree, to be ritualistic oriented, in the sence of:

AC4 murders:
motive- "a mission"
killed by: asphyxiation or strangulation or suffocation
remove shoes and socks on all 4 victims-leave them barefoot (possible religious meaning: "mourning")
remove all jewlery/cell phones/purses etc
place all 4 bodies- face down-heads to the east
place all 4 bodieis in a row
dump the bodies in a way so that they would be found pretty quickly
all 4 victims were mothers
all 4 victims were partly placed IN water (drainage ditch )

GB4 murders:
killed by: asphyxiation or strangulation or suffocation
motive- "a mission" + lust/power murder
Remove all clothes/jewlery/cell phones/purses etc.
I don't know if the bodies were face down or not, neither which way their heads were facing?
wraped all 4 naked bodies in burlap (possible religious meaning: penitent and atonement)
dumped Miss Barthelemy body in a way so that it would be found pretty quickly, knowing that the other bodies would be found as well.
"She (Miss Barthelemy ) was ” found a FEW FEET into the brush off the parkway, police said. ”)
2 victims were mothers 2 was not mothers.
all 4 victims were placed BY water
Thise 4 victims were SIGNIFICANT lookalikes of the 4 AC victims.

Personaly I doubt that the rest of the "Long island serial killer" victims/and Manorville victims, and Shannan Gilbert, are victims of the killer of the GB4 and/or the AC4 victims.

All, just my opinion of course.
 
That's the skull that doesn't look real. It looks like a Halloween mask.

That skull is indeed real IMO, it's just that it is seen in part from behind, part profile, the face of the skull face kind of away from the picture.

Somthing like this:

human_skull.jpg
 
IMHO the killer possibly choose the GB4 victims through Craigs List, by LOOKS, because he wanted them to be look-alikes of the AC4 victims..

Highly unlikely. Most such adds rarely show faces and are usually someone elses picture anyway.
 
Highly unlikely. Most such adds rarely show faces and are usually someone elses picture anyway.

FYI, I have copies of escort adds, with real pictures, of 3 of the GB4 victims:

Amber Costello
Melissa Barthelemy
Megan Waterman

Only concerning Maureen Brainard-Barnes, I have not found any adds at all so far.

SO, I belive the killer was indeed able to pick his victims by looks.

And by the way, just take a look at those pictures, do you really think that it is a coincident that they look that much alike?
 
Scenario A: The father looks after the kid until it dies as well and is disposed of in the general area (which is obviously a good spot to do this).

If the SK were the child's father, this would be quite plausible.
 
FYI, I have copies of escort adds, with real pictures, of 3 of the GB4 victims:

Amber Costello
Melissa Barthelemy
Megan Waterman

Only concerning Maureen Brainard-Barnes, I have not found any adds at all so far.

SO, I belive the killer was indeed able to pick his victims by looks.

And by the way, just take a look at those pictures, do you really think that it is a coincident that they look that much alike?

Can you please post these?
 
Can you please post these?

NO, in respect for the victims and their relatives, I will not do that.

But if anyone from Law enforcement (reading here?) haven't found them and want the adds, I will of course provide them, however I doubt that they haven't found them.

And I know several othere reseachers here on WS also have copies of thise adds.
 
Would it be uncalled for to ask that some images of remains be hidden behind a spoiler tag? I was thinking how lately it has gotten to myself personally but, then thought my goodness what about the families of the victims. Sure they may be all over the net but to provide some respect to them and to extend a hand cannot hurt.
idk how the rest of you guys feel on this
honest question
 
I would like to add my thoughts on what I belive might connect the AC and the 4GB victims.

[...]

All, just my opinion of course.
[snipped for brevity]

Agreed. If any of the cases are related, the AC4 & GB4 seem to be most likely candidates. For several of the very reasons you listed (i.e., mission driven, religious overtones, etc).
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
123
Guests online
2,665
Total visitors
2,788

Forum statistics

Threads
600,831
Messages
18,114,294
Members
230,990
Latest member
DeeKay
Back
Top