Mass Casualties -Train Crashes Into NJ Transit's Hoboken Station

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Perhaps a silly question, but, has the train driver had his eyes checked lately?
 
Just in. ......

BREAKING: We have just learned the NJ Transit train involved in a fatal crash in Hoboken was going twice the speed limit at the time of the collision. The emergency brake was applied less than a second before the crash.

The NTSB says the train was traveling at 8 mph and sped up for about 30 seconds before hitting 21 mph.

http://abc7ny.com/news/hoboken-trai...eed-limit-at-time-of-crash-ntsb-says/1542720/

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
Train Was Traveling at Twice the Speed Limit Just Before Hoboken Crash
By Emma G. Fitzsimmons, New York Times
Oct 6 16

[...]

"But the new details from the safety board provided the clearest picture yet of what happened leading up to the crash.

About 38 seconds before impact, the train was traveling at a much slower speed of about eight m.p.h., the safety board said. The throttle then accelerated the train until it reached a maximum of about 21 m.p.h."

[...]

attachment.php


Screenshot 2016-10-06 at 6.37.39 PM.jpg



Hoboken train was traveling twice the speed limit when it crashed, NTSB says
By Jonathan D. Salant NJ Advance Media for NJ.com
Oct 6 16, 5:33 pm

[...]

"The throttle had been in the idle position but moved to a No. 4 position as the train accelerated. Just before the crash, the throttle returned to the idle position and the engineer tried emergency breaking procedures.

[...]

the investigation into the cause of the crash could take more than a year. Technical experts and those involved in the investigation are scheduled to meet Tuesday at safety board headquarters in Washington to review the data from the recorders."

[...]

 
Community holds vigil for mother killed in NJ Transit train crash at Hoboken Terminal
Marvin Scott, PIX 11 NEWS
tonight, ~ 11 pm reporting from the vigil and with a summary of the investigation


VIGIL HELD FOR YOUNG MOTHER KILLED IN HOBOKEN TRAIN CRASH
By Carolina Leid, ABC 7 News
Updated 55 mins ago

[...]

Her husband wrote in a letter to Hoboken residents, that his life goal is to give their daughter everything his wife dreamed for her to have.

Fabiola "is" and not "was" because she lives in her daughter Julia.

[...]



Vigil held for Fabiola Bittar De Kroon, mother killed in Hoboken train crash
Ranji Sinha reports for News 12 NJ
Updated October 6, 2016 10:23 PM from the Hoboken Terminal and the Vigil, and more coverage therein, on the site.

[...]

Friends who attended the vigil say they were impressed to see the large turnout.

“I really expected just our Hoboken families to just come here, which is about 80 parents,” says Sapphire Lopez. “To see it blow up to this proportion is phenomenal.”

[...]

“I am not going to stand here and say that I knew Fabiola on a personal level; that we were friends or colleagues even, but what I can tell you is that I knew Fabiola as a mother,” says Lopez “It was a love so endless and so pure that everyone around her can see it.”



PM Feds say Hoboken train was speeding, hit 21 mph just before deadly crash
By Abbott Koloff, staff writer The Record
Thurs, Oct 6 16, 10:34 pm


NTSB: NJ TRANSIT Train Going Twice The Speed Limit Before Deadly Crash At Hoboken Terminal
Jessica Layton, CBS 2 News NY
Oct 6 16, 9:26 pm

reports with details from the Terminal tonight, with a "good view" from their chopper of the train being moved earlier, and from the vigil.


NJ Transit Train in Hoboken Crash Was Going Twice the Speed Limit
The train reached 21 mph before the crash, and the engineer hit an emergency brake 1 second before the crash
CBS 2 NEWS Updated 5 hours ago


Wrecked NJ Transit train removed from Hoboken Terminal
By Larry Higgs, NJ Advance Media for NJ.com
Oct 6 16, 7:17 pm


Hoboken Train Was Going Twice the Speed Limit Before Crash, Says NTSB
By Jen Kirby, New York Mag
Oct 6 16, 6:53 pm

includes this:

NTSB Press Release
National Transportation Safety Board Office of Public AffairsHoboken Commuter Train Event, Video Recorders Provide Investigators Usable Data
10/6/2016

Screenshot 2016-10-06 at 11.12.31 PM.png

From here:
http://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/pr20161006.aspx
 
'All Of A Sudden We Felt The Train Derail'
CBS New York
Tonight, 11:40 live report from the scene

Gov Cuomo states MTA & LIRR staff on scene to determine cause and restore service asap. Suspended service going both ways, for now.
1st 3 car off the track about a half mile East of New Hyde Park Station and Maryland Ave Sta.
Train collided with a railroad work train on the tracks, that work train then caught fire
11 injured LIRR (Long Island Railroad), taken to local hospitals, some on stretchers

[video=youtube;Hv9Fd7Ri_Xg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv9Fd7Ri_Xg[/video]

Train derails in New Hyde Park; service suspended, LIRR says
By Newsday Staff
Updated Oct 9 16 1:15 am

"Twenty nine people were injured

[...]

About 600 people were aboard the 12-car train when it derailed at 9:10 p.m., officials said."

[...]




http://www.12news.com/news/nation-n...nt-shuts-down-long-island-rail-road/331560718

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/10/0...ter-new-york-city-commuter-train-derails.html

[...]
"8:22 p.m. train out of Penn Station train when it crashed, [Gov] Cuomo said in a statement.
[...]
Martel, who was in the first car, said when the train hit something "everyone gasped."

"We knew we hit something but we didn't know how bad it was," he told the Associated Press."
[...]
The Federal Railroad Administration said it had investigators en route to the scene.
[...]
Long Island Rail Road trains have been involved in 72 accidents since Jan. 1, 2011, according to federal data, including 3 collisions and 15 derailments on tracks used for passenger service.



http://nypost.com/2016/10/08/29-hospitalized-after-long-island-railroad-train-accident/

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/29-hurt-after-lirr-train-derails-long-island-n662606

[...]
Metropolitan Transportation Authority Salvatore Arena said. The work train caught fire, he said.
[...]
mostly broken bones and cuts and bruises, officials said. Some of the injuries were described as serious but none appeared to be life threatening.
[...]
" was going normally, it was going at its normal speed, and then it started to shake, but that's sort of normal, and then everyone started to sort of scream — so I realized something was wrong," [a rider], told NBC New York.

And the train was really (going) back and forth and shaking ... and then I look out the window and I saw a spark or a fire type thing ... and then the train abruptly stopped and the car in front of mine was tilted, as if it wasn't fully on the track," she said.
[...]


By Ryan Bonner (Patch National Staff) - October 9, 2016 12:23 am ET
http://patch.com/new-york/mineola/lirr-train-partially-derails > https://twitter.com/Marteljr/status/784930710025080832 Screenshot 2016-10-09 at 4.46.55 AM.png Screenshot 2016-10-09 at 4.51.21 AM.pngScreenshot 2016-10-09 at 4.52.43 AM.pngScreenshot 2016-10-09 at 4.56.50 AM.png
with many images from the scene, including, from here:------------------------------ the "Conductor Car window smashed. Hit something on tracks" https://twitter.com/Marteljr/status/784929423040606208?ref_src=twsrc^tfw


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...nt-shuts-down-long-island-rail-road/91812146/
 
SERVICE TO RESUME AT HOBOKEN STATION AFTER TRAIN CRASH
WPVI
Sunday, Oct 9 16, 1:08 am

Some NJ Transit lines in Hoboken resume Monday; waiting room will open



http://hudsonreporter.com/view/full_story/27287124/article-HOBOKEN-BRIEFS?instance=hoboken_top_story
The city of Hoboken and NJ Transit sent out releases on Friday saying some of the commuter rail lines heading into Hoboken terminal will resume their routes Monday, following the Sept. 29 train accident.

Beginning with the first train Monday morning, NJ TRANSIT will reopen Tracks 10-17 for rail service. Tracks 1-9 will remain out of service until further notice. Main/Bergen County, Pascack Valley and Port Jervis Line trains will return to a weekday schedule, with some adjustments. Customers are urged to go to njtransit.com for more information on those and other lines.

The terminal will still be accessed via the south sidewalk of Hudson Street. The Hoboken Terminal waiting room, customer service office, and restrooms will be open.
 
US Sen. Chuck Schumer calls for cameras in all NYC-area trains following crash in Hoboken, NJ

Ogh please Scjhumer NTSB has been asking for this for years

TO METRO NORTH RAILROAD: Require the installation, in all controlling locomotive cabs and cab car operating compartments of crash-and fire-protected inward-and outward-facing audio and image recorders capable of providing recordings to verify that train crew actions are in accordance with rules and procedures that are essential to safety as well as train operating conditions. The devices should have a minimum 12-hour continuous recording capability with recordings that are easily accessible for review, with appropriate limitations on public release, for the investigation of accidents or for use by management in carrying out efficiency testing and systemwide performance monitoring programs.

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/_layouts/ntsb.recsearch/Recommendation.aspx?Rec=R-14-008

Here is how it works! The ntsb IS pure. THeir manadate is to find probable cause, to avoid another accident, in railroad, aviation, pipe line.

They have no "enforcement" powers. In every final report they have safety reccomnedations that they submit to either the FAA for aviation , NRA for railroad.

The Faa does nothing. For decades. $$$ Same with the railroads. The agencies that have power.

Postitive train control has been on the NTSB's "wish list" for years.

They have to have a milestorm accident, where the FAA or the railroad one, will pretend they are going to do a NTSB recc.

They spend billions and billions on each one.

The bottom line here is FAA and the railroad one do tombstone studies.

In aviation air safety, a tombstone mentality informally is a pervasive attitude of ignoring design defects until people have died because of them.
Strictly speaking, tombstone mentality decisions are examples where there is no incentive for an economic actor to be a 'first mover' and promote safety. Sometimes this is a result of market pressures (nobody wants to pay for extra safety, despite their talk), or, it may be a result of legal disincentives such asproduct liability lawsuits (if a design change is made that is not government approved and somebody is injured, even if the design change was not the reason for the injury, the company may be liable).

They actually read like: Our studies indicate that per death the cost is $978, ooo. The cost of implemnation is prohibitive.

Those studies are digustingly put: our studies indicate the NTSB safety recc will cost 1.9 billion to implement. In the past year 194 people have died as a result of passengers killed in trains that have no postive control installed (loss of income, lawsuits, repair tracks, committee hearings, laws proposed that go no where in congress casue of $.)

The railroad people have conclued that all of the abovementioned and more total out at 689 million dollars. The railroad associate cannot implement NTSB recommendation A5468-2145-7854-A 5457

That is why in Holeboken you are going to hear postive train control daily.

Congress passed a postive control bill lthat said they have to have it installed , or get fined *advertiser censored*. THey did not comply, the fine was making up $2, while implementation was 250,000! They did comply, paid the $2 bucks and blew off congress



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombstone_mentality

Very shortened

Positive Train Control (PTC) can stop many rail accidents before they happen. Congress has mandated that railroads implement it by December 31, 2015. Public safety demands that the railroads comply.

NTSB has been telling congress for ages .

2015 is long gone they have not done it nationwide . THe game.

example of NTSB safety reccs in every inestiagittion

Ntsb has been telling the world for the last 8 years

Recommendation:TO THE FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION: Publish the positive train control implementation update reports submitted by all railroads subject to the positive train control provisions of the Rail Safety Improvement Act of 2008 and make the reports available on your website within 30days of report receipt.

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/_layouts/ntsb.recsearch/Recommendation.aspx?Rec=R-13-023
 
gOOGLE IMAGES

I had not seen these sorry if you all have !!

screen_shot_2016-09-29_at_32901_pm-1475173860-3612.jpg

1532105_1280x720.jpg

30036284006_1490a4cd8a_oa.jpg
 
Thank you, CARIIS, are there more? They are amazing to see for gaining some context, how fortunate the glass roof gave, I suppose? It's seems surreal, to see that wooden door swung open next to the wreck.
 
FindHG said:
Thank you, CARIIS, are there more? They are amazing to see for gaining some context, how fortunate the glass roof gave, I suppose? It's seems surreal, to see that wooden door swung open next to the wreck.
Click to expand...
YW! I so agree, really did not "get" what the train did for a couple of days. Like I knew it went over the bumper and crashed through the wall. But the pics that just recently emerged, made it much more horrifying, to have been in the terminal that day.




This was years ago, in a Mobil gas station 7-11 like setting. Hear this motorcycle, look out see this motorcycle hop the curb and come crashing through the glass doors. He , by feet just pushed his back out rode off. It was not until like 20 seconds later , it was only the clerk and I , that looking around at the glass did we like comprehend what had just happened. Cops caught him I found out later!

But afterward, it was like when I looked out I KNEW he was out of control with the bike, but did not (even tho he was coming right toward the door) really comprehend that the bike was gonna come crashing in. When I saw these pics that is what came back, to me and it is a process - I think it was more traumatizing for the ramp and terminal people than those on the train- it just is not something you experience- this train come crashing through into a terminal, or whizzing by you on a platform

And hey, I love my NTSB (!) what they say goes, but visually it looked earlier today like much faster than 21 mph, the destruction was stunning. I have tried to find (on other ones too) video of the removal - how they do that.

How do you get a crane inside a terminal?? The tracks are messed up - its not like you could hook something up and pull it out on the track? Push, with what? ANd it has always amazed me that media is never interested in that angle of a story.

That is a real accomplishment to get a crashed 777 off a runway, no? When the train (big one) last year I did see some video of them removing the cars, it is an amazing ( and SLOW!) process

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cbv6i6Nnx4
 
CARIIS said:
YW! I so agree, really did not "get" what the train did for a couple of days. Like I knew it went over the bumper and crashed through the wall. But the pics that just recently emerged, made it much more horrifying, to have been in the terminal that day.




This was years ago, in a Mobil gas station 7-11 like setting. Hear this motorcycle, look out see this motorcycle hop the curb and come crashing through the glass doors. He , by feet just pushed his back out rode off. It was not until like 20 seconds later , it was only the clerk and I , that looking around at the glass did we like comprehend what had just happened. Cops caught him I found out later!

But afterward, it was like when I looked out I KNEW he was out of control with the bike, but did not (even tho he was coming right toward the door) really comprehend that the bike was gonna come crashing in. When I saw these pics that is what came back, to me and it is a process - I think it was more traumatizing for the ramp and terminal people than those on the train- it just is not something you experience- this train come crashing through into a terminal, or whizzing by you on a platform
Click to expand...

Unbelievable the injuries weren't worse on the train, no fatalities either, that is on the train. Do you suppose the beam above it was intentionally designed that way going way back, to be centered between the isles? Accounts from inside the train, what struck was that one of the riders described having time to bend down and forward. He fell forward and saw after the crash that his seat was smashed. Had he not reacted in just that way in those moments...
 
FindHG said:
Unbelievable the injuries weren't worse on the train, no fatalities either, that is on the train. Do you suppose the beam above it was intentionally designed that way going way back, to be centered between the isles? Accounts from inside the train, what struck was that one of the riders described having time to bend down and forward. He fell forward and saw after the crash that his seat was smashed. Had he not reacted in just that way in those moments...
Click to expand...

I agree about injuries after pics today. I remember early in the thread someone mentioned "medical" When NTSB released prelim, I do wonder if (humm just thought if we can find a picture of his "cockpit") don't remember locomotive model any longer - i wonder if something actually did happen like that resulted in him like falling over (would explain the total absence of braking) and then hit the throttle with his head or something??

Cause we really have two things - no braking/acceleration total opposites so it would seem weird for those two things to be mechanical. I have also wondered (in the report they will say) exactly what point in the tunnel it started to accelerate?

Was it still accelerating at impact? That would sound like someone slumped over no? He is old a bit chubby, medical? After your locomotive crashes through a terminal, it makes sense that doctors might not be looking for something like that!!!!

Would make sense for same person to have some chest pain or whatever (speculating) so it might have ended up erroneously be attributed to the locomotives journey (!) as opposed to pre-crash entity.

Just seems unlikely that a locomotive would have two opposite "errors" within seconds does it not??

It also struck me as strange after hearing about acceleration, that none of the passengers ever said they noticed they were speeding up inside the platform. I would think being "at" the platform part of the trip and speeding up would be something that would stand out to most.

All reports only discussed no slowing down or braking. There regular commuters so they would know /sense where they were as the platform passed by.

Big heavy things - it would seem like it would take some "time" to speed up. They did say the track goes down about near the end - could that have caused the acceleration?

Then we could be back to brake failure and decline sped it up?? From aerials the covered part (yellow) is pretty long

What are your thoughts regarding causation of the sequence??
 
NJ Transit has had more accidents and paid more fines for safety violations than any other commuter rail system in the U.S. AP’s analysis also found that between January 2011 and July 2016, human behavior was a factor in 57 percent of NJ Transit’s accidents.

The letter said the FRA recorded 2,418 accidents and incidents on NJ Transit between 2010 and 2015, an increase of almost 1,000 when compared to the 2004-2009 period.


Train was 400 feet long.. One of the recorders also had exterior audio. The systems for brake and throttle information were destroyed- they will have actually put it all back together test functionially

NJ Transit is the nation’s second largest commuter railroad and the third busiest in the nation, carrying more than 320,000 weekday riders, most of whom live in New Jersey and work in New York City. By comparison, average weekday ridership on the Washington region’s Metrorail is roughly 705,000.

“The horrific tragedy in Hoboken and the deterioration of NJ Transit only underscore the need for increased investment in our transit system.”

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/local/ntsb-preliminary-report-hoboken-crash/2180/​https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...pened-before-fatal-hoboken-crash-report-says/

5804579bb6234.image.jpg



green doors blocking those tracks

[FONT=&quot]New Jersey Transit said six more tracks will open at 4 a.m. Monday. It also noted that the station's ticket office has resumed operations.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]However, tracks 5 and 6 will remain closed as the transit agency continues repairs.

Trains entering the station will now reduce their approach speed from 10 mph to 5 mph

http://poststar.com/news/state-and-...cle_68fc3e24-74b1-58d4-a22f-141ec5ebbc40.html
[/FONT]

 
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