Max's Death - Dina's Independent Experts Summary Reports

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Regarding the alleged Ocean utterance:

Could Max have uttered Ocean before/if Rebecca turned him over? Because if she did turn him over she may have further damaged the spinal cord, that damage then causing the cardio pulmonary cessation.

Also, could she have been so hysterical that she thought "Ocean" but in her altered stated of consciousness thought she heard it instead of just thinking it? That could happen to anyone in a highly charged situation and especially if she was overtaken by hysteria. I think hearing the 911 call would shed light on Rebecca's state of mind during the incident.

Those are good points. The report the way it is written could be misconstrued or RZ misunderstood.... it always seemed to be she was trying to say what she heard.... and MS could have shouted out "Ocean" at the time she heard the crash... just as when NR recalls RZ said something about the bedroom... I got the impression she thought MS was playing in his bedroom when she went to the bathroom... and the next thing she hears Ocean and a big crash.. comes out of the bathroom to find MS on the floor...

It would be a very natural reaction to turn him over... especially if he is not responding in anyway... not moving.. not speaking for groaning... and you have to turn him over to do CPR... if he was moaning or responsive in some way.. I might not turn him over... Just my thoughts..
 
No, there was only Rebecca's and Max's DNA/fingerprints in the room. There was obviously older DNA that was too low to even be measured (? - not sure that's what they call it). So only Max and Rebecca had been in that room recently. The DNA and fingerprints tell the whole story. They were on the door frames, paint brushes, paint tubes, rope KNOTS, and the bed leg, as well as other placed. As one detective put it, "you'd have to be in a hovercraft to not leave anything". NO WAY anyone else was in the room. You really can't argue "what ifs" against DNA and fingerprints. Also, Rebecca could tie knots and she just tied until she got it done.

Hi CG. Can you please provide a link to back this up? TIA
 
That doorway from the main staircase landing leads to the stairway that goes up to the room with the balcony. And, you can't see it in that section you posted, but the doorway also leads to a stairway that goes into the kitchen. Rebecca last saw Max in the kitchen, as I recall.

Oh that is interesting..... was RZ in the bathroom underneath that staircase area I wonder... she might have heard Max going upstairs.. presumably to his bedroom...

and about that chanelier and where it was hanging the SDLE diagram shows it well below the second floor... while it was 30 inches in diameter... if you were reaching for it on the second floor... to grab the chain area... it would have been say 53 inches to reach it.... a little boys arm would need to reach way out and maybe need that ruler to try and grab it... it is exactly what a boy would do... I had a little boy in my home this afternoon...9 he is.. and he wanted to grab that chandelier in my stairwell... and the first thing out of his mouth was can I swing from it.... :what:
 
The thing about Max is WHY would anyone want to hurt him that badly? If you believe an assault scenario.. was it the two kids roughhousing arugueing.... RZ losing her temper with him and assaultinghim... well WHY...

and that door from the middle landing leads to the kitchen down a set of stairs... who could have gotten in the house.... and came up them and assaulted Max? That note on the door "speaks" to both of them.... "she saved him" meaning RZ saved Max... "can you save her?" wow.... at the time of RZ's death... outsiders would not have known how grave the medical situation with MS was.. it still could have been an outsider somene wanting to hurt JS who shoved MS over that railing... scooter and all and when that didn't seem to pan out they came in and hurt RZ..... what if one of his daughter's local boyfriends had had a run in with JS and wanted to hurt someone in the family to get back at him.... there are many possible scenarious...in fact once the perpetrator realized how EASY it was to get in the house.. maybe they did come back and esculate the violence with a sexual fantasy about RZ..... that is still a possibility...

that being said... it doesn't seem like anyone had any reason to hurt Max badly... but once Max was hurt that badly... and in fact that Tuesday night... NR said a doctor told both DS and JS that Max would NEVER walk again... at that point many people had reasons to harm RZ....
 
I just removed an entire page of posts for being off-topic. I don't have time to move the posts to the appropriate thread right now, maybe later. So.... if you said anything important, no one will get to read it.

This thread is about THE DOCUMENTS RELATING TO MAX'S DEATH AND INJURIES. It is not about Rebecca, except as her presence relates to Max's death. It is NOT about AS. There are thread for those discussions - this is NOT the thread.

Please put your discussion in the appropriate threads or they won't be around long enough for anyone to read.

Salem
 
Damage to Upper Railing and Post Pic from Dr. Bove's report.

I just don't see how the damage on the railing post is related to Max going over the railing in any of the scenarios.

What this pic made me wonder - what is directly behind that upper railing, is a door into a room and I don't know how wide that hallway ont he second floor is (probably can find out)? Is it possible Max came running out of one of them, if so, and went over the upper railing at more of a 45 - 90 degree angle with the skooter in hand? Maybe Ocean was running behind him and helped bump/flip him up and over? I may be wrong but the damage on the post appears to be going at some angle that is downward and not across the railing.

Similiar to the SDLE scenario... but we see evidence of the sccoter scraping the railing... as it went over? hmmm

Confused.... taken in October or by SDLE right after the accident?

Those photos are odd.... they were taken in October.... so who knows why that plant material is there on the middle landing. It seems like some kind of modern ficture has replaced the chandelier... they probably needed to get some kind of light working there for safety.... and then
in the last photo something appears on the floor of the second landing....

with people moving things in and out of the house... are these SDLE photos or the October photos? I mean... with construction going on... that railing could have been easily damaged at anytime... it would be very prudent to determine if the paint on the scooter matches the railing...
 
From the Dr. Judy Melinik report...

1. According to personal interviews with Dina Shacknai, Maxfield was a careful child;
not a risk{aker or dare-devil. She reported that the soccer balls in the photos were
always scattered around the house and it was not unusualto see them there. Both
Dr. Bove and Dina Shacknai described the carpeting of the residence as being a
thick pile carpet, which would make it difficult for Max to ride his razor scooter at a
high rate of speed. Dina Shacknai reported that her sister Nina was told by Rebecca
Zahau that Maxfield had fallen from the second story on the day of the fall, prior to
any police report. She also reported that told
her that Rebecca had a quick temper and knew ju-jitsu. reported incidents
where Rebecca would put in a "hold" and would have to "tap out" to be
released from the hold.


This is astounding.... NR said this or DS? Really RZ would put NR in a ju-jitsu hold.. and she had a quick temper... I wonder what the RZ family would say to this?
 
oh... Dr. Melnik goes on to kind of dispell RZ being violent noting any evidence of this was notably absent in the informaton she reviewed... almsot contradicting DS and NR...

"A thorough psychological assessment of her mental state or inquiries into
previous aggressive acts or a pre-existing violent temperament are all notably absent
from the material I reviewed in Max's case file or in the material supplied to me about
Rebecca Zahau's death."
 
Does anyone recall if MS is right or left handed?

One scenario I thought of is what if MS was reaching for the chandelier with the ruler while on the scooter at the railing and up on his tip toes? If he is holding tight to the scooter handle and with the other hand reaching way out to try and grab the chandelier with a ruler...... and what if the dog jumps on him from behind...? Would MS fall over still holding onto the scooter...dragging against the railing bannister making those marks...as MS flips over.... the scooter flips up and gets tangled in the chandelier for a split second while MS swings out holding onto the scooter now stuck in the chandelier ... and then when the chandelier gives way.... the boy, the scooter and the ruler crash to the ground...

I find the ruler to be a fascinating piece of new evidence.... exactly what a boy might try to use to reach that dazzling chandelier....and pull it over to have a good look.. or actually hang off of it....

and thanks so much Time for setting this up.... very interesting reading...

that door on the middle landing... always open... does it lead to the garage? I need to double check...

I don't remember ever reading about the ruler before. Someone posted long ago about maybe he was trying to get a soccer ball that was stuck in the chandelier (yes, this has happened at my house a few times). What if he was using the ruler to try to knock the soccer ball out of the chandelier? What if he couldn't reach and climbed up on the banister with the ruler? And what if an excited young dog wanted to play too and accidentally knocked him off balance? He could have yelled oceans name as he grabbed at the chandelier. Or if he did say it when RZ got to him maybe that explains why his last word was the dogs name. His momentum could have swung him into the landing banister where he could have tried to steady himself and then fell the rest of the way when the chandelier gave way. When RZ turned him over it could have knocked his foot into the scooter and that fell on him. I would think she would be more concerned with his head/breathing then what was laying across his shin. This is just another possible scenario trying to use the info we have.
 
Okay the plant material inbetween the spindles on the middle landing.. bothered me.... BUT the plant on the main floor sits high enough that the leaves would actually stick out through the railings... no issue here... not plant being thrown.
 
I don't remember ever reading about the ruler before. Someone posted long ago about maybe he was trying to get a soccer ball that was stuck in the chandelier (yes, this has happened at my house a few times). What if he was using the ruler to try to knock the soccer ball out of the chandelier? What if he couldn't reach and climbed up on the banister with the ruler? And what if an excited young dog wanted to play too and accidentally knocked him off balance? He could have yelled oceans name as he grabbed at the chandelier. Or if he did say it when RZ got to him maybe that explains why his last word was the dogs name. His momentum could have swung him into the landing banister where he could have tried to steady himself and then fell the rest of the way when the chandelier gave way. When RZ turned him over it could have knocked his foot into the scooter and that fell on him. I would think she would be more concerned with his head/breathing then what was laying across his shin. This is just another possible scenario trying to use the info we have.

Very good point..... soccer ball in chandelier good motivation..... to get at it... maybe he tried the ruler.. it fell to the ground... didn't reach so he hoisted his scooter up.... while standing at the corner area where the stair railing meets the main newel post at the top of the stairs..

DS's experts actually say MS could have gone over at that spot... this is from the Exponent report....

"The center area of this photograph depicts the inclined portion of railing where a person of Maxfield Shacknai’s stature could theoretically travel over the railing given sufficient horizontal velocity."

If MS stands there at that top stair and tries to use his scooter to grab at the Chandelier,....he scrapes the newel post and railing as he tries to get it over..... maybe to get a soccer ball or just to play with the Chandelier and then the dog gets excited and jumps at his while he is leaned over and trying to reach.... he falls the scooter gets caught in the chandelier for a bit MS may have held on and then falls... I believe the SDLE believed he snapped is neck on the middle railing before landing on the main floor.... by the way somone pointed out that that floor on the main landing is made of Cement... it would be cement coverd by carpeting.... much more unforgiving than a wood type floor material.
 
I have read through the reports but I must admit the injury stuff relating to the autopsy just boggles me...

this thought keeps niggling at me... essentially an excited dog could have "assaulted" MS at the stairs... and could any of the mystery injuries on his back have been caused by the dog? The nails dragging on his back?... MS could have been pushed into the railing face first by the dog causing the head injuries and then as he tries to get up again he loses his balance and goes over that side railing on the top stair....still holding the scooter as it scrapes the newel post and top railing...? possible....
 
I have read these reports and watched the interviews, including the press conference and I find this whole thing orchestrated to point solely at RZ... regardless of the valueable expertise and scientific analysis that could get to the truth of the death of MS.
 
I don't remember ever reading about the ruler before. Someone posted long ago about maybe he was trying to get a soccer ball that was stuck in the chandelier (yes, this has happened at my house a few times). What if he was using the ruler to try to knock the soccer ball out of the chandelier? What if he couldn't reach and climbed up on the banister with the ruler? And what if an excited young dog wanted to play too and accidentally knocked him off balance? He could have yelled oceans name as he grabbed at the chandelier. Or if he did say it when RZ got to him maybe that explains why his last word was the dogs name. His momentum could have swung him into the landing banister where he could have tried to steady himself and then fell the rest of the way when the chandelier gave way. When RZ turned him over it could have knocked his foot into the scooter and that fell on him. I would think she would be more concerned with his head/breathing then what was laying across his shin. This is just another possible scenario trying to use the info we have.

Yoda, this is very feasible and from the video of Maxfield's injuries would be consistent with this type of accident.
 
Some photos of Max's injuries are in this video. They are disturbing and may ruin your day. Poor little child had just turned six.
By no means am I an expert, but the injuries appear to be consistent with a fall rather than a beating.
The abrasions/ scrapes down the middle of the back are consistent with falling and hitting the stairway/banister as are the face injuries (only one side).
 
oh... Dr. Melnik goes on to kind of dispell RZ being violent noting any evidence of this was notably absent in the informaton she reviewed... almsot contradicting DS and NR...

"A thorough psychological assessment of her mental state or inquiries into
previous aggressive acts or a pre-existing violent temperament are all notably absent
from the material I reviewed in Max's case file or in the material supplied to me about
Rebecca Zahau's death."[/
QUOTE]

BBM

Why would a doctor hired to give an opinion about MS's death also be reviewing material about RZ's death????

Wonder what the doctor's opinion is/was about that material reviewed???
 
Some photos of Max's injuries are in this video. They are disturbing and may ruin your day. Poor little child had just turned six.

http://www.cbs8.com/category/155799/video-landing-page?clipId=7584855&autostart=true

I looked at the photos and I can't make sense out of the injuries.
There looked to be a bruise straight across his back under his shoulder blades. That looks like it could be from his back hitting a banister from a fall, not being pushed up against. Jmo. The scrapes skin abrasions along the spine could be from the bannister too, but I can't figure out how he got the two combined. And was there any record of finding blood/skin anywhere in the stairwell? He did have quite a large amount scraped off. There had to be evidence somewhere on the bannister/stairs. And if there wasn't then where did the scrapes come from? And if LE didn't find it then that is just hinky. Jmo

Quick question for any medical people- should they be moving him around like that to take photos if he has a back/neck injury? It looked like he still was in his clothes and not a gown.
 
I think Dr. Bove did a pretty good job of enumerating the physics involved—my criticism is that Dr. Bove appears to have a very limited imagination as he ran various scenarios. But perhaps he was not given that intellectual freedom—he may have been asked to run only a limited set of scenarios.

For instance, I would be interested in running the numbers for a scenario that could include horseplay such as straddling the railing with an intrinsic loss of balance, a reaching loss of balance, or an external variable such as the dog. I can easily envision multiple planes of injury with a vertex impact in that scenario. What about a child hanging upside down from the railing with legs (knees or feet) entwined in the spindles—either at the top railing of the spindles, or lower, near the bottom railing of the spindles?? I’m not saying I strongly feel any of these are what happened—my opinion is some kind of horseplay lead to the fall, which was unintended. I do commend Dr.Bove for stating very clearly that he could not determine if whatever happened was intentional. That was very ethical and professional.

I was attentively following Dr. Melinek right up to the point that Dina’s wallet biopsy results came in—when she mentioned Rebecca Zahau by name as the likely perpetrator of a possible assault on Max. I would put more weight in what she had stated if she had said more generally that “someone”, in her opinion, assaulted Max. I feel she overstepped the bounds of an ME by naming RZ specifically—if she had simply advocated for reclassifying Max’s death as a homicide, for example, WITHOUT naming RZ, I would place more value on her comments. I feel she loses a lot of credibility when she names a specific person as a possible perpetrator. Law Enforcement investigators are charged with connecting the dots of an ME’s physical findings and medical interpretation—so for her to specifically name RZ as the perpetrator is disingenuous and demonstrates her wallet biopsy bias, imo.

Additionally, with the revelation that Dr. Melinek was provided with Wikipedia printouts, and postings from an anonymous internet forum as “support and evidence”, I feel she was professionally remiss not to include statements dismissing these items as part of her analysis and interpretation. I would place more weight on her comments IF she had clearly stated something such as the following (which she did not):

“While this reviewer was provided with additional materials for consideration, which include Wikipedia sources and anonymous internet forum postings, these materials were not, and cannot, be given any weight or consideration in the analysis, or final conclusions, because they lack scholarly rigor, and do not represent of a review of the relevant professional literature.”

That would be the scholarly, professional, and ethical way to address the forum postings and Wikipedia entries she was provided with, IMO. Even graduate students can’t use THOSE sources to document and validate their student papers.

Then again, Dina paid her big bucks to review Wikipedia entries, and anonymous internet forum postings! ROFLAMO! Who exactly got the better end of that deal-- Dr. Melinek or Dina?! That is hilarious, when I stop to think about it critically!

Sheesh.
 
oh... Dr. Melnik goes on to kind of dispell RZ being violent noting any evidence of this was notably absent in the informaton she reviewed... almsot contradicting DS and NR...

"A thorough psychological assessment of her mental state or inquiries into
previous aggressive acts or a pre-existing violent temperament are all notably absent
from the material I reviewed in Max's case file or in the material supplied to me about
Rebecca Zahau's death."

That doesn't mean she wasn't violent, it just means the police did not do a mental assessment of her. Because Rebecca would not call them back.
 
I think Dr. Bove did a pretty good job of enumerating the physics involved—my criticism is that Dr. Bove appears to have a very limited imagination as he ran various scenarios. But perhaps he was not given that intellectual freedom—he may have been asked to run only a limited set of scenarios.

For instance, I would be interested in running the numbers for a scenario that could include horseplay such as straddling the railing with an intrinsic loss of balance, a reaching loss of balance, or an external variable such as the dog. I can easily envision multiple planes of injury with a vertex impact in that scenario. What about a child hanging upside down from the railing with legs (knees or feet) entwined in the spindles—either at the top railing of the spindles, or lower, near the bottom railing of the spindles?? I’m not saying I strongly feel any of these are what happened—my opinion is some kind of horseplay lead to the fall, which was unintended. I do commend Dr.Bove for stating very clearly that he could not determine if whatever happened was intentional. That was very ethical and professional.

I was attentively following Dr. Melinek right up to the point that Dina’s wallet biopsy results came in—when she mentioned Rebecca Zahau by name as the likely perpetrator of a possible assault on Max. I would put more weight in what she had stated if she had said more generally that “someone”, in her opinion, assaulted Max. I feel she overstepped the bounds of an ME by naming RZ specifically—if she had simply advocated for reclassifying Max’s death as a homicide, for example, WITHOUT naming RZ, I would place more value on her comments. I feel she loses a lot of credibility when she names a specific person as a possible perpetrator. Law Enforcement investigators are charged with connecting the dots of an ME’s physical findings and medical interpretation—so for her to specifically name RZ as the perpetrator is disingenuous and demonstrates her wallet biopsy bias, imo.

Additionally, with the revelation that Dr. Melinek was provided with Wikipedia printouts, and postings from an anonymous internet forum as “support and evidence”, I feel she was professionally remiss not to include statements dismissing these items as part of her analysis and interpretation. I would place more weight on her comments IF she had clearly stated something such as the following (which she did not):



That would be the scholarly, professional, and ethical way to address the forum postings and Wikipedia entries she was provided with, IMO. Even graduate students can’t use THOSE sources to document and validate their student papers.

Then again, Dina paid her big bucks to review Wikipedia entries, and anonymous internet forum postings! ROFLAMO! Who exactly got the better end of that deal-- Dr. Melinek or Dina?! That is hilarious, when I stop to think about it critically!

Sheesh.

BBM


Sorry, but I don't find anything about Dina's trying to find out what happened to her little 6-year old boy hilarious.
 
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