Max's Death - Dina's Independent Experts Summary Reports

[i.b.nora]

He said, regarding Rebecca, that he thinks hers was a suicide because of the paint transfer in three spots, one being on her back. Which actually caused me to go hmmmm.
Admittedly, my mind was on other things while listening to the part about Max, so I would need to listen again which I just can't do right now.
The hosts of the show tried to get him to conclude that her suicide automatically implied that she was guilty of murder. The clip ended.

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

Fmr. LAPD detective [Fuhrman] weighs in on [ S ] case

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/19236125/fmr-lapd-detective-weighs-in-on-shacknai-case

Wow Fuhrman is missing a few key FACTS. There was a teenage girl also in the home the day of the Max Shacknai accident. There were also people living in the guest suite at the back of the property who could have easily entered the home. And in the Rebecca Zahau case there were several "other" foot prints on the balcony floor and most importantly... the dust on the outdoor railing was barely marked... if a naked, hand and foot bound woman hopped to that balcony railing and leaned onto to it to go over... her torso would have moved a signifigant amount of dust... instead there were two narrow spots... only enough for the rope... and then we can discuss how the bed did not move far enough....I don't think RZ ever went over that railing... I think she was carried downstairs.... and some of the scrapes on her may be from being carried down the back outside staircase and then strung up.... she could have already been choked to death with that t-shirt... so to hide the rage murder they had to carry her down and string her up so the fact that she was strangled would be covered up by the fake hanging...

 

[jjenny]

This paragraph appears to contain the basic 'scenario(s)' (from Dr. Melinek's report):




If I parse this out into one of the possibilities (I changed it slightly):



Other than face and shoulder injuries then, e.g., no perpetrator/assault - and remember Dr. Bove said he could not determine the initiating events - it becomes:

Lifted or escaped are not one scenario. But two different scenarios.
And we talked about it already, but escaped? How did he escape? Wouldn't he have to turn around? Did he climb on the railing? Which of these two different scenarios is consistent with all the evidence, as they seem to imply?

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

He said, regarding Rebecca, that he thinks hers was a suicide because of the paint transfer in three spots, one being on her back. Which actually caused me to go hmmmm.
Admittedly, my mind was on other things while listening to the part about Max, so I would need to listen again which I just can't do right now.
The hosts of the show tried to get him to conclude that her suicide automatically implied that she was guilty of murder. The clip ended.

I work iin paint all the time. I am an oil painter. In my experience it smeers.. there aren't just dabs here and there... the dabs here and there indicate someone was setting the stage..

 

[jjenny]

Fmr. LAPD detective [Fuhrman] weighs in on [ S ] case

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/19236125/fmr-lapd-detective-weighs-in-on-shacknai-case

After all this time, the writer of this article claims the only other person at home was Rebecca? That's not someone who knows much of anything about the case.

 

[arielilane]

I see that the summary (first post of this thread) was written by other doctors; however, reading a few certain sentences on page three of the first attachment jumped out at me.

Just above and below the picture of the electrical plug these two sentences caught my attention:

"Why couldn't the specialized doctors in the Pediatric Intensive Care Unit save him?"

Then next paragraph:

"No one could save Max, once he fell."

A bit odd...are those Dina's words?
May be am reading too much into it.:blushing:

 

[CuriousGeorgia]

Wow Fuhrman is missing a few key FACTS. There was a teenage girl also in the home the day of the Max Shacknai accident. There were also people living in the guest suite at the back of the property who could have easily entered the home. And in the Rebecca Zahau case there were several "other" foot prints on the balcony floor and most importantly... the dust on the outdoor railing was barely marked... if a naked, hand and foot bound woman hopped to that balcony railing and leaned onto to it to go over... her torso would have moved a signifigant amount of dust... instead there were two narrow spots... only enough for the rope... and then we can discuss how the bed did not move far enough....I don't think RZ ever went over that railing... I think she was carried downstairs.... and some of the scrapes on her may be from being carried down the back outside staircase and then strung up.... she could have already been choked to death with that t-shirt... so to hide the rage murder they had to carry her down and string her up so the fact that she was strangled would be covered up by the fake hanging...

Sorry, I hate to keep repeating this, but the only people in the house were Rebecca and her sister. No one was living in the guest suite. There was one footprint besides Rebecca's on the balcony that was one of the SDSO detectives. The dust on the railing had a mark where she slip over on her hip. The bed moved exactly how she planned it to.

There are other threads if you believe that Rebecca was murdered and you want to discuss that. This thread is about Max and if Rebecca or her sister assaulted him.

I believe that Rebecca hurt Max, staged the scene to cover up what she did, sent XZ home the next day, boarded her dog, didn't call back the detective, wouldn't tell anyone in the Shacknai or Romano family what happened, and then killed herself to avoid prosecution.

 

[CuriousGeorgia]

Could Rebecca have hit Max with that potted plant? Why did he have plant debris in his lungs? The pot of that would have made quite a wallop on that little child.

 

[time]

Lifted or escaped are not one scenario. But two different scenarios.
And we talked about it already, but escaped? How did he escape? Wouldn't he have to turn around? Did he climb on the railing? Which of these two different scenarios is consistent with all the evidence, as they seem to imply?

Yes, two different scenarios at least. Let's not forget there is also "pushed against or backed into the second story railing."

I would think he'd have to turn around or else somehow go over back first and head first if he escaped?

Does "lifted" instead of escaped mean much anyway? If he was lifted, then what? It begs for, "He was liften and then thrown?" "He was lifted and heaved?", or He was lifted and tilted over the balcony then they let him drop?

Why do I have a feeling this is no different, or at least not saying much more than he got up on the railing and fell. That post does not look damaged by his back, the scooter maybe. Maybe he put his scooter up there then tried to heave himself up and both went over. Or like I said somehow the dog interacted.

It just looks to me like the "assault" damage could be explained in other ways and not be from an assault. IDK - it just appears to be the least of it, but crucial to claim this was not an accident. Unfortunately, we can't refer to pictures and such.

 

[CuriousGeorgia]

Did you see the pictures of Maxie's poor little face? That did not happen the way CPD said it did. No way. The child was assaulted.

 

[jjenny]

Yes, two different scenarios at least. Let's not forget there is also "pushed against or backed into the second story railing."

I would think he'd have to turn around or else somehow go over back first and head first if he escaped?

Does "lifted" instead of escaped mean much anyway? If he was lifted, then what? It begs for, "He was liften and then thrown?" "He was lifted and heaved?", or He was lifted and tilted over the balcony then they let him drop?

Why do I have a feeling this is no different, or at least not saying much more than he got up on the railing and fell. That post does not look damaged by his back, the scooter maybe. Maybe he put his scooter up there then tried to heave himself up and both went over. Or like I said somehow the dog interacted.

It just looks to me like the "assault" damage could be explained in other ways and not be from an assault. IDK - it just appears to be the least of it, but crucial to claim this was not an accident. Unfortunately, we can't refer to pictures and such.

Yep. They didn't come up with one "scenario." It's several scenarios. Where is the explanation for all the evidence? How did the chandelier come down? If the injuries are from the assault, are they then claiming that the fall didn't cause any of the injuries to the back or face?

 

[MyBelle]

Did you see the pictures of Maxie's poor little face? That did not happen the way CPD said it did. No way. The child was assaulted.

Have there been photos released of his injured face? Are they linked? Thanks!

 

[gypsychild]

Have there been photos released of his injured face? Are they linked? Thanks!

I am wonering if there are pictures of his injuries also. Also, in these reports there are many sources cited including Xena interviews. Are any of these reports available? Have any of Xena's statements been released?

 

[time]

He said, regarding Rebecca, that he thinks hers was a suicide because of the paint transfer in three spots, one being on her back. Which actually caused me to go hmmmm.
Admittedly, my mind was on other things while listening to the part about Max, so I would need to listen again which I just can't do right now.
The hosts of the show tried to get him to conclude that her suicide automatically implied that she was guilty of murder. The clip ended.

I'm really disappointed in this and that's just a ridiculous reason. I've painted quit a bit in the past and I'm messy with it, mostly acrylics, or even the house and I've never gotten paint on my back
.

 

[time]

Yep. They didn't come up with one "scenario." It's several scenarios. Where is the explanation for all the evidence? How did the chandelier come down? If the injuries are from the assault, are they then claiming that the fall didn't cause any of the injuries to the back or face?

Geez, I am reading through (to page 24 so far) and all I can say without spending hours going through the possibilities is that Dr. Bove says the scooter may or may not have moved over the railing with Max, body rotation may or may not have been caused by movement over the railing or interaction with the chandelier, and so on...

"The chandelier, the stairwell railing and the steps descdeing from the landing to the first floor and the first floor itself are all potential primary contact points for a falling scooter. In the scenario proposed by Dr. Melinek, contact with Maxfield Shacknai's body and/or the scooter would have resulted in the chandelier falling to the first floor (pg 24)"

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

REPOSTED

QUESTOR: Did LE recover the chandelier and check it for human tissue/blood/DNA?

If so, was that tissue/blood/DNA found on the upper portion of the chandelier, as though MS fell on top of it, or on the lower portion, as though the chandelier fell on top of MS? TIA

The DS investigator was allowed to view the Chandelier and the scooter but not take photos. I do not remember seeing the Chandelier on the evidence list for
RZ's death.

I am assuming they viewed these items when they were allowed entry into the mansion in October. Sadly AB's team was never allowed back in as they were told SDLE had to be there. Was the SDLE present when the DS team was allowed in?

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

Could Rebecca have hit Max with that potted plant? Why did he have plant debris in his lungs? The pot of that would have made quite a wallop on that little child.

The only potted plant I have seen was on the first floor. I thought that debris got there when he landed, some could have gotten on his shirt and then entered during the semi chaos in trying to revive him.

In fact the plant debris points to MS having landed face down on the first floor accounting for the marks on his forehead.

 

[time]

Here is what I think, my opinion, after reading all the documents we have available with Dina's Independent experts reports:


1. I think Dr. Bove probably did a good job of showing that the initial LE investigation and recreation is not adequate.

2. I think Dr. Melinek may have a good point about how Max's head hit the floor, assuming he did fall off a railing. However, I'm not sure I have reconciled all this with the official autopsy.

3. From Dr. Bove's report, I've pretty much concluded there are too many variables and not enough explained to think these reports explain any certain scenario, only possibilities. This all does a much better job of saying what didn't happen and many possibilities on what could have happened.

Having said this, I feel they discounted a lot or just basically or totally excluded a lot of variable: the dog Ocean, the balls, the ruler, the piece of plant on the balcony, whether some other object or interaction caused the marks on his back, maybe got injuries to his face by rough housing earlier in the day or a different accident scenario caused them and on and on.

Most notably, they excluded possibilities related to Max's behavior that he could have climbed on top of the railing, was reaching over it with his scooter, trying to get on his scooter, whatever - seems the entire justification is that he was not a risk taker?

4. As far as an assault happening because of unexplained and possibly minor injuries, I think the assault scenario is really weak. Further, it is weak because of #5

5. No where can I find that Max had to be thrown or catapulted or whatever over the banner. In fact, going over the railing in the first place seems to be described as a fairly passive event. The main concern seems to be getting over the railing with center of gravity concerns? But my head starts swimming when trying to put all they are saying together.

6. The reports seem iffy on how the scooter and the chandelier even interacted with Max falling except that they could explain the resting spot of the scooter - that does not seem definitive to me as there could be many explanations that explain it.

7. The damage on the upper railing is not adequately dealt with, let alone if and how that damage occurred due to Max going over the railing. They claimed there was damaged paint, and possible paint on the scooter, but it's difficult to tell if the damage matches up to where the paint is and no one seems to have tested what was on the scooter to see if it is paint or, in particular, of the same formula as the railing paint.

8. Per the chandelier, Dr. Bove's report gives us it's diameter of 30", it sat in a space (a plane of 6 x 8 feet), basically between the two side stairs cases, and it was 3 feet from the back landing/railing. Of course, this is not 3D space exactly. We know from this that the chandelier was at most about 21" away from the landing.

Also, there appears to be a couple of unknowns per the chandelier. How did the ring that broke end up on the landing, and is that possible their proposed scenarios? How vulnerable was that ring in the first place, e.g., was it getting ready to break or already weak and how much weight could it withstand with more on it.


***

I have a lot of questions and these reports only create more questions. It basically tells us that no one has given an adequate account of what happened that day. Perhaps it IS impossible to do because of too many possibilities.

I think the current reports should only have claimed that the original scenario presented was inadequate because of xyz and here is some of what is reasonably certain scientific fact related to this case. There's some good stuff in the reports, but it also muddies the waters. Instead, they tried to turn it into a murder scenario instead of showing reasons the investigation should be reopened and it stretched it too far.

They are misrepresenting the science and what was actually found in the media. This is sad for Max just as it is sad if LE did not adequately determine how this happened int he first place

Maybe there is something that discounts this, but is it possible Max reached over the railing with the scooter and it got caught in the chandelier?

Is it possible, and I would say yes, that the damage to the upper railing, or other variables they have claim must be included in any scenario, were not even involved in Max's accident directly?

Other questions.... to be continued

 

[freespeech]

The DS investigator was allowed to view the Chandelier and the scooter but not take photos. I do not remember seeing the Chandelier on the evidence list for
RZ's death.

I am assuming they viewed these items when they were allowed entry into the mansion in October. Sadly AB's team was never allowed back in as they were told SDLE had to be there. Was the SDLE present when the DS team was allowed in?

Good question about whether SDSO was present for Dina's investigators.

Also, there was a search warrant for the chandelier on one of the more recent threads of another forum. It was found in the trash by the investigator who was looking into Max's injuries and subsequent death.

 

[freespeech]

The only potted plant I have seen was on the first floor. I thought that debris got there when he landed, some could have gotten on his shirt and then entered during the semi chaos in trying to revive him.

In fact the plant debris points to MS having landed face down on the first floor accounting for the marks on his forehead.

I also tend to believe that Max ended up face down because of the external facial injuries and the frontal skull fracture.

Apparently, Rebecca was asked if she turned him over but she claimed she didn't remember. She could have been so hysterical that she did it automatically with out thinking. However, if his spinal cord was injured then quickly turning him over the wrong way could have caused further and fatal damage to it. So in that scenario she could be blamed for his death for incorrectly turning him over to attempt CPR.

Ideally, if he was found on his face then the best action would have been to immediately call 911 to avoid further possibility of damage to the neck.

As to the back injuries I couldn't say except that he and the scooter were tangled up with the chandelier during the fall and his back could have been scratched from that. What happened to the tee shirt he wore when he fell? Was it ripped up?

Also, if the scooter was on the floor beside him could Rebecca have inadvertently pushed it on to the front of his leg when she knelt down beside him to turn him over.

The way the first responders described her she sounded hysterical to me, crying and calling his name.
I don't get the impression that she thought clearly or was calm after she found him on the floor. I wonder if the 911 call could clarify whether or not she was hysterical during the incident.