Max's Scooter

[iSleuth]

If Max fell while straddling the railing and landed face down then possibly the scooter fell on his back and caused the seven shaped abrasion.

Rebecca could not remember whether she turned him over or not. I am thinking that she was somewhat hysterical at the time.

I wonder if when he was face down and his spinal cord was going into shock whether early in that process he could speak or not. If Rebecca moved him by turning him over then possibly that insult deepened the damage and caused him to go unconscious.

After the insult to the brain and spinal cord he went into cardiac arrest, stopped breathing and "suffocated."

I think Rebecca lost it at that point because she though Max died and he probably did at that point but was brought back to life later by the efforts of the EMT.

I don't think any of this was Rebecca's fault. It was a sad and tragic accident. The only thing I blame is the scooter inside the house and the steep stairway.

I think Rebecca did the best she knew how. She also knew that Dina would be extemely angry and blame her because the police officer documented that she said Dina is going to kill me. I think that is why she was probably happy to put her sister on a plane out of there.

However, there is no evidence as to why Ocean was boarded, her sister left town or even why the tenants were asked to leave after the accident. What is apparent, however, is that the place was emptied out in a hurry immediately following Max's accident.

<<the police officer documented that she said Dina is going to kill me. >>

:waitasec:

this ...is something that i had not really focused on until this moment.

1. I know it maybe just an " expression" but..
2. Doesn't that show evidence of RZ's innocence in MS's accident?

RZ feared DS feared her to death apparently...and why would she say that if she somehow caused the accident?

 

[Carioca]

<<the police officer documented that she said Dina is going to kill me. >>

:waitasec:

this ...is something that i had not really focused on until this moment.

1. I know it maybe just an " expression" but..
2. Doesn't that show evidence of RZ's innocence in MS's accident?

RZ feared DS feared her to death apparently...and why would she say that if she somehow caused the accident?

It's curious that Rebecca would focus on Dina's reaction. If Jonah wasn't there at the time of the accident, why wouldn't Rebecca have feared HIS reaction more than Dina's? Like everything else in this case, it doesn't make sense.:banghead:

 

[freespeech]

It's curious that Rebecca would focus on Dina's reaction. If Jonah wasn't there at the time of the accident, why wouldn't Rebecca have feared HIS reaction more than Dina's? Like everything else in this case, it doesn't make sense.:banghead:

Carioca, that is an excellent point and a suprise revelation. I never thought of that, but yes, it would be logical to expect her to be more afraid of his reaction than Dina's. WOW!

 

[justice be served]

It's curious that Rebecca would focus on Dina's reaction. If Jonah wasn't there at the time of the accident, why wouldn't Rebecca have feared HIS reaction more than Dina's? Like everything else in this case, it doesn't make sense.:banghead:

It could be that Jonah was already in the know because he was there so to only worry what might be Dina's reaction could be very tellimg! Geez louise! I think you've got something!

 

[Inparadise]

It could be that Jonah was already in the know because he was there so to only worry what might be Dina's reaction could be very tellimg! Geez louise! I think you've got something!

Also, IMO, Jonah would be afraid of Dina if Dina thought that Jonah had something to do with Max's fall. So, it seems logical that it would be to his benefit to have Dina believe that Rebecca harmed Max.

 

[Carioca]

Also, IMO, Jonah would be afraid of Dina if Dina thought that Jonah had something to do with Max's fall. So, it seems logical that it would be to his benefit to have Dina believe that Rebecca harmed Max.

Bingo!

 

[jjenny]

It's curious that Rebecca would focus on Dina's reaction. If Jonah wasn't there at the time of the accident, why wouldn't Rebecca have feared HIS reaction more than Dina's? Like everything else in this case, it doesn't make sense.:banghead:

JS was her boyfriend. Why would she fear his reaction more than that of his ex-wife, who didn't like RZ to begin with?

 

[freespeech]

JS was her boyfriend. Why would she fear his reaction more than that of his ex-wife, who didn't like RZ to begin with?

I think the point was whether or not Rebecca was guilty of intentionally harming Max. If she had intentionally harmed him then she would be more afraid of Jonah. Since they had an intimate relationship that was hopefully based on some level of trust then the breach and betrayal would be stronger in that relationship in my opinion.

However, if she was innocent of intentionally harming Max but was sucked into a cover-up directed by Jonah then she would be more frightened of Dina. The fear would be more intensified if Jonah hung her out to dry alone by expecting her to pretend that he and the other kids were not at home when Max's accident happened. I suspect that Jonah feared Dina's reaction so he hid under Rebecca's skirt so to speak.

JMO

 

[Inparadise]

I think the point was whether or not Rebecca was guilty of intentionally harming Max. If she had intentionally harmed him then she would be more afraid of Jonah. Since they had an intimate relationship that was hopefully based on some level of trust then the breach and betrayal would be stronger in that relationship in my opinion.

However, if she was innocent of intentionally harming Max but was sucked into a cover-up directed by Jonah then she would be more frightened of Dina. The fear would be more intensified if Jonah hung her out to dry alone by expecting her to pretend that he and the other kids were not at home when Max's accident happened. I suspect that Jonah feared Dina's reaction so he hid under Rebecca's skirt so to speak.

JMO

IMO, Jonah was there, and was afraid that if Dina knew that, then Dina would sue him for every last dime that he would ever have.......which probably will happen anyway.

 

[Carioca]

IMO, Jonah was there, and was afraid that if Dina knew that, then Dina would sue him for every last dime that he would ever have.......which probably will happen anyway.

And the fear that a huge media storm would have ensued. Wouldn't have been good for Medicis. Well, that sure backfired!!

If indeed JS (and/or the teens were there), and witnessed the fall, and JS had come clean about it with both Dina and LE, IMO Rebecca would still be alive. We, the public, would have mourned the tragic loss of a precious little boy, and we, and the media, wouldn't still be here today, 16 months later, hypothesizing, searching for the truth in both deaths. What a senseless tragedy, avoidable if it weren't for two humongous egos. IMHO always.

 

[bourne]

I think the point was whether or not Rebecca was guilty of intentionally harming Max. If she had intentionally harmed him then she would be more afraid of Jonah. Since they had an intimate relationship that was hopefully based on some level of trust then the breach and betrayal would be stronger in that relationship in my opinion.

However, if she was innocent of intentionally harming Max but was sucked into a cover-up directed by Jonah then she would be more frightened of Dina. The fear would be more intensified if Jonah hung her out to dry alone by expecting her to pretend that he and the other kids were not at home when Max's accident happened. I suspect that Jonah feared Dina's reaction so he hid under Rebecca's skirt so to speak.

JMO

I think regardless of how Max was injured, Rebecca knew Dina would automatically and unhesitatingly blame her because of the hateful animosity and jealousy Dina had for Rebecca in the past.

As for Jonah, I recall reading a media article in which Jonah stated that he felt at "peace" in his relationship with Rebecca, as opposed to how he felt in his tumultuous marriage with Dina. That leads me to believe Jonah had never been violent with Rebecca, and Rebecca would therefore not have any reason to fear Jonah when Max had the accident.

I agree with Time that Dina has the greatest motive and opportunity to harm Rebecca. Jonah did not have as great a motive since he did not hate Rebecca with a passion as Dina did/does, and he was captured on video at the hospital so opportunity was slight. Means to commit Rebecca's murder were equivalent for both since both Dina and Jonah are well-versed in boating and knots.

 

[K_Z]

I think regardless of how Max was injured, Rebecca knew Dina would automatically and unhesitatingly blame her because of the hateful animosity and jealousy Dina had for Rebecca in the past.

As for Jonah, I recall reading a media article in which Jonah stated that he felt at "peace" in his relationship with Rebecca, as opposed to how he felt in his tumultuous marriage with Dina. That leads me to believe Jonah had never been violent with Rebecca, and Rebecca would therefore not have any reason to fear Jonah when Max had the accident.

I agree with Time that Dina had the greatest motive and opportunity to harm Rebecca. Jonah did not have as great a motive since he did not hate Rebecca with a passion as Dina did/does, and he was captured on video at the hospital so opportunity was slight. Means to commit Rebecca's murder were equivalent for both since both Dina and Jonah are well-versed in boating and knots.

I agree that Dina has more motive and opportunity than Jonah, but I'm not ready to give Jonah a complete pass. I have always been very bothered by his reaction to a text message from Adam informing him of Rebecca's "suicide". That has always struck me as a confirmation message, not an informative one. I think Jonah, at a minimum, knew something awful and murderous was going to take place, but did nothing to prevent it. JMO.

 

[justice be served]

I agree that Dina has more motive and opportunity than Jonah, but I'm not ready to give Jonah a complete pass. I have always been very bothered by his reaction to a text message from Adam informing him of Rebecca's "suicide". That has always struck me as a confirmation message, not an informative one. I think Jonah, at a minimum, knew something awful and murderous was going to take place, but did nothing to prevent it. JMO.

Thank you to help sort this out and I agree with you. I believe that JS is a grand manipulator as are many powerful men and particularly lawyers.

 

[Gilgamesh]

I'm not ready to give Jonah a pass either. I agree about that text message, KZ. I have also been troubled about his lies about selling the house and having the evidence destroyed. There are things I've heard through private sources that I won't mention because I can't link them or have been asked to keep confidential. Basically, when scandals happen, PR co's tell their clients to disappear for awhile. It's great advice and has been working beautifully in his case. It's like someone once said in a post, " I haven't taken my eyes off him".
Am I accusing him or murder? No. I don't know who did it ( my suspicions aren't facts), but IMO, he is not as pure as the driven snow in this matter........

 

[time]

I'm not ready to give Jonah a pass either. I agree about that text message, KZ. I have also been troubled about his lies about selling the house and having the evidence destroyed. There are things I've heard through private sources that I won't mention because I can't link them or have been asked to keep confidential. Basically, when scandals happen, PR co's tell their clients to disappear for awhile. It's great advice and has been working beautifully in his case. It's like someone once said in a post, " I haven't taken my eyes off him".
Am I accusing him or murder? No. I don't know who did it ( my suspicions aren't facts), but IMO, he is not as pure as the driven snow in this matter........

I agree with both of you. I'm sort of suspecting that Jonah did know and failed to stop it or knew right after the fact ... maybe Adam found her sooner (or knew as it was happening/ helped) and got in touch with Jonah or maybe he knew earlier for some other reason.

 

[iSleuth]

Yes, flat paint and semigloss or gloss would be different. Also, latex is almost always used on walls, but sometimes oil-based enamel is used on areas like staircases and such.

You could be right about the other stuff, but the paint on the wheel looked to me like the scooter was ridden pretty parallel to the wall and creates that kind or rubbing transfer, e.g., the wheel ended up sideways against the wall, not head on bumping. Sometimes when moving forward at a very slight angle, those wheeled playthings get stuck up against them. Or maybe Max was sort of riding toward the wall and the wheel turned - does that happen on scooters? I've seen that happen before but that doesn't mean it's what happened here - just someone would be able to tell, I think.

Hi Time...thank you for this post, I have been thinking about this aspect of mS's accident a lot too. I think the marks on the scooter are from the wall moulding and the scratches on the banister are from the chandelier. I have been confused about this especially since some of the photos of the light fixture look mostly glass, and some other photos make it appear that it is mostly gold or brass. Does anyone know ? does it make a difference

In either case, I guess- DR W. speculation that this was a horrific accident where the child was " hanging on for dear life" and the "chandelier swinging down with the child by force and gravity caused the deep gouges in the wood. banister.

That also is supported by the EMS statements that when they arrived the child face and hands had bruising and injuries and there were fragments of the chandelier everywhere, and they did not make specific remarks other injuries re. body torso etc. in the official reports.

http://www.drphil.com/shows/show/1874/

you can see the chandelier if you freeze frame - during DS' interview Ad. and you can hear DR W in that segment of Dr Phil show. too.

ALso how many things in that EMS report shows evidence that EMS did not have adequate support tools for a pediatric emergency. ?????( atleast 2)
hmmmm :what: :waitasec:

 

[bourne]

I agree that Dina has more motive and opportunity than Jonah, but I'm not ready to give Jonah a complete pass. I have always been very bothered by his reaction to a text message from Adam informing him of Rebecca's "suicide". That has always struck me as a confirmation message, not an informative one. I think Jonah, at a minimum, knew something awful and murderous was going to take place, but did nothing to prevent it. JMO.

I do not give Jonah a pass either. I should have clarified my perspective. I think all four siblings -- Shacknai/Romano -- were involved in Rebecca's murder, but that Jonah was not physically present at the Spreckels mansion for the hands-on lynch killing.

I agree that Jonah's easy and quick acceptance of Adam's text that his gf Rebecca "hung herself" is highly suspect. But I have to wonder why he would either orchestrate the kill or allow her to be killed -- if he were aware of the plot. Did Jonah also blame Rebecca for Max's injury? Did Jonah already begin hating or despising Rebecca prior to Max's accident? Or as some posters speculate, did Jonah want to use Rebecca as a scapegoat for Max's accident knowing full well it was either himself or his teen kids had caused Max's injury by reckless play on bannister?

 

[justice be served]

I do not give Jonah a pass either. I should have clarified my perspective. I think all four siblings -- Shacknai/Romano -- were involved in Rebecca's murder, but that Jonah was not physically present at the Spreckels mansion for the hands-on lynch killing.

I agree that Jonah's easy and quick acceptance of Adam's text that his gf Rebecca "hung herself" is highly suspect. But I have to wonder why he would either orchestrate the kill or allow her to be killed -- if he were aware of the plot. Did Jonah also blame Rebecca for Max's injury? Did Jonah already begin hating or despising Rebecca prior to Max's accident? Or as some posters speculate, did Jonah want to use Rebecca as a scapegoat for Max's accident knowing full well it was either himself or his teen kids had caused Max's injury by reckless play on bannister?

BBM. I'll vote for this one. It may just be that split second decisions were made during Max's accident that exponentially exploded into unrecoverable outcomes. I believe that self preservation became JS's sole goal at that moment of Max's death whether or not the older children were there or just himself. He may regret where those knee jerk reactions led to with the ultimate death of Rebecca, but IMO he put the rules in motion. I don't doubt that he has some serious issues that caused him to make these decisions - not a normal reaction. IMO only.

 

[time]

Hi Time...thank you for this post, I have been thinking about this aspect of mS's accident a lot too. I think the marks on the scooter are from the wall moulding and the scratches on the banister are from the chandelier. I have been confused about this especially since some of the photos of the light fixture look mostly glass, and some other photos make it appear that it is mostly gold or brass. Does anyone know ? does it make a difference

In either case, I guess- DR W. speculation that this was a horrific accident where the child was " hanging on for dear life" and the "chandelier swinging down with the child by force and gravity caused the deep gouges in the wood. banister.

That also is supported by the EMS statements that when they arrived the child face and hands had bruising and injuries and there were fragments of the chandelier everywhere, and they did not make specific remarks other injuries re. body torso etc. in the official reports.

http://www.drphil.com/shows/show/1874/

you can see the chandelier if you freeze frame - during DS' interview Ad. and you can hear DR W in that segment of Dr Phil show. too.

ALso how many things in that EMS report shows evidence that EMS did not have adequate support tools for a pediatric emergency. ?????( atleast 2)
hmmmm :what: :waitasec:

I don't really know about the chandelier... I was trying to go back and find the photos of it, but haven't yet.

I'm not sure if the chandelier could swing to create those gouges. However, since part of the ring holding the chandelier to the chain was on the landing, it's possible it was swinging back and forth at some point (toward and away from the landing which would be away from and toward the upper balcony?).

I wish they had elimnated some variables:

Was the ring already weak and stressed, what kind of force would it take to break it

How did the ring end up on the landing

Paint issues

What injuries the chandelier could cause (for various reasons like hitting into someone, landing on them, them landing on it.)

Is it possible the scooted got stuck in the chandelier

Do the particulars of the scooter match up to the scratched paint on the Newell post (and is it the same paint) - how? That would certainly provide a clue as to how the scooter had to be on the post and was possibly involved in a fall (or not)

Was there paint on the chandelier (per your thoughts)

Were there tire marks elsewhere like the wall (some 'rubber' left behind)

Can other objects be eliminated or not (ball, ruler, etc.)

What injuries on Max were caused during treatment


***

Heck, I still don't understand why there was a piece of the plant between the railings or where ever it was - does that mean anything? Was that table down below and so forth.

Why didn't any of the 'experts' seem to fully investigate all of this. It seems fairly easy for the most part. I'm pretty convinced if they had that several very plausible scenarios for how the accident happened would have come out of it.

 

[bourne]

BBM. I'll vote for this one. It may just be that split second decisions were made during Max's accident that exponentially exploded into unrecoverable outcomes. I believe that self preservation became JS's sole goal at that moment of Max's death whether or not the older children were there or just himself. He may regret where those knee jerk reactions led to with the ultimate death of Rebecca, but IMO he put the rules in motion. I don't doubt that he has some serious issues that caused him to make these decisions - not a normal reaction. IMO only.

We should really be focused on Thanksgiving preparations but I can't get my mind off Becky's case! I've already basted the turkey and put the chestnuts in the oven, so don't feel too bad about neglecting my "chef" duties. lol

I may be a hopeless romantic at heart but I just don't understand how Jonah would throw Rebecca under the bus like that if he loved her. I think if a man loves a woman, he would protect her from harm and even sacrifice his own life for hers, not throw her to the already angry, hateful wolves (Dina, etc.) and let Rebecca take the blame for Max's accident -- particularly because Rebecca already was in a precarious, tenuous, disrespected position with his teen children...

Who would do such a thing except someone who is an emotional and moral coward? I don't know Jonah personally but is he a coward who hides behind vulnerable people?