CONVICTION OVERTURNED MD - Hae Min Lee, 17, Baltimore, 13 Jan 1999

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khaki said:
I finally had time to listen to this entire podcast yesterday. One thing that struck me has to do with Hae's plans that day, after school got out. Before she left the campus, we know she was seen getting snacks, and we know she had a conversation with a friend. This was the friend who was going to be working at a wrestling meet for her first time later on and Hae told her not to worry, she would be there to help her. The friend was mad when Hae never showed up. Ok, then late in the podcast, maybe the last episode, we hear from Don, the new boyfriend. He mentions they had been together the night before, the 12th. But he also mentions there was talk that they would see each other on the evening of 13th too. A never-delivered note to him was found in Hae's car, dated that day, saying she was sorry she couldn't wait for him. Hae seemed to have an awful lot planned for that evening. Pick up cousin, work at a wrestling meet, go see Don. What changed for her from the night before, when they had plans to meet on the 13th, till the time she wrote the note saying she was sorry she couldn't wait for him? Also, when did Don learn he was going to have to work at a different store? Did Hae know this? Not that I think Don had anything to do with this, but just among the billions of questions that have come to my mind.
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Don also said they were to meet up after she got off work at lens crafters 10pm. I dont understand how she was supposd to do all of that in a day.

It was also reported that Jen was the first to mention how Hae was murdered in her first interview with LE .

My sister and I are kinda tilting out heads over this case. It is clear Jay is lying but what the motive is behind the lies we cant tell. The only hint at his motive might be in his ramblings about "protecting Stephanie" ..which unless he is protecting her from something different than Adnan ,the lies are still unjustifed and make no since, They only make since if he played the part of her actual murderer or he is protecting Stephanie from accusation? IDK.

I did consider that Jay might have killed her for Adnan, and they both then buried her and Jay flipped the script on Adnan .
 
From the beginning Jay has struck me as someone in way over his head. I think he probably enjoyed having his reputation as the "criminal element" at WHS, but other than being a source for pot and possibly other minor illegalities he probably wasn't much of a criminal. Thus when all this goes down, he really doesn't know how to deal with it. He tries to minimize his own involvement, thus the inconsistencies. Overall though, I think his story is true on the important parts - that it was Adnan who killed Hae, that jay helped bury her.


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Just my opinion here, but I was fairly certain Adnan was guilty when the podcast related his muttering "pathetic," under his breath at Jay during the trial. I'd already thought the evidence, while circumstantial, pointed rather convincingly at Adnan, but when I heard that, it rang a bell for me.

From my life, I know a person who became really embarrassed and angry when testimony from a formerly close friend refuted the testimony he had just given and portrayed him in a bad light. It wasn't a criminal case, but everything said was absolutely true, backed up with a letter in his own handwriting. He confronted the person testifying out in the hallway, and the only thing he could muster up to say was, "You're pathetic." What else could he say? If he'd said How could you do this to me? then he would have looked like the pathetic one, so instead, he turned it around and said it to the woman testifying to refute his testimony.

Anyway, just throwing this in, take it or leave it. The choice of words strikes me as what a guy says when yes, he's in the wrong, but can't say anything in response that would acknowledge the truth of the other person's testimony. To release some anger, he just resorts to playground bullying with a stupid put-down: pathetic.
 
Jessen, thank you for the link to Jay's interview. I just barely started reading it when I was reminded of something else odd that was mentioned early on in the podcast. It is this: "Lee’s ex-boyfriend, Adnan Syed, 17, became the primary suspect in her homicide after an anonymous caller told the police to investigate him"

That's odd to me because the police would have investigated any murdered woman's ex-boyfriend. To me it possibly suggests someone (whoever left the message) was restless and nervous and needed to see this thing move along.
 
Wow, great interview. He comes across as very believable to me.


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Unlike Adnan, Jay sounded, even back in 1999 on the stand, humbled and remorseful. Even the judge noted his remorse at his sentencing. I hear the same, but more so in this interview. I hear the voice of a man who did something extremely stupid at age 19, tried to do the right thing but messed it up because he didn't want to end up in jail or get his Gramma in trouble (back in the 80s and 90s there were still VERY long sentences even for just pot - and especially if you were dealing in a school zone. Also - they could, maybe still can - take your house). I can completely see 19 year old Jay being scared $hitless about that.

He's older, hopefully wiser, and is no longer a scared kid, so now he gives the details he was afraid to give back then. His story remains essentially the same on the main details anyway.

Personally I think Adnan has everyone snowed lol. I agree with the poster above about the "pathetic" remark he made. So bitter. It's a word someone would use for a rat or a snitch, which is exactly how he probably viewed Jay.


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Gardenlady said:
Wow, great interview. He comes across as very believable to me.


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I totally disagree. I however do wonder which of his stories has the most truth to it. I also wonder why he would say Hae's body was in Adnan's trunk ,and now say it was not in Adnan's trunk.

Plus he admits to witness tampering..
 
I need to reveiw court document I believe, After knowing all the stories Jay has told and hearing about the actual towers not matching up to the call log/locations. I just do not feel confident in Adnan's conviction. I do believe he had ineffective council and I also believe Ashia statement should have been presented ,AND a mistrial declared on the second trial after it was found out about the lawyer meeting Jay in the prosectors office. There is no way Jay did not see the benefit of having that lawyer. He signed the papers ,plus he had asked for the lawyer. I think that is HUGE. CG should have filed a complaint with the bar for that. Or however you report those ethic issues.

I for the life of me do not understand why people say Jay seems like he is honest. I dont see it, not in the tone of his voice or the look on his face.
 
For the life of ME, I can't understand anyone believing Adnan. I've known many guys like Jay, and many like Adnan. Adnan was an arrogant suburban kid on the outskirts of trouble who thinks he's better, smarter, and ultimately "harder" than guys like Jay. Whenever he opens his mouth all I can hear is smug arrogance. Even in how he treated Sarah Koenig. He thinks everyone else is "pathetic".


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Serial podcast witness Jay Wilds breaks silence: ‘You’ve got to help me, or I’m going to tell the cops about you’.

In Part 1 of the two-part interview, Jay — who believes he was treated unfairly by Koenig — told The Intercept that Serial “painted a highly misleading portrayal of him and his role in the case”, despite admitting, on record, that he lied to police and to the court during Adnan’s trial.

Whether a calculated tactic to pull on the heart strings or simply the truth, Jay consistently brings up his family — especially his grandmother — as the reason for why he lied during the case.

When asked why he helped Adnan bury Hae’s body, he says: “Because at the time I was convinced that I would be going to jail for a long time if he turned me in for drug dealing, especially to high school kids”.

“I was also running [drug] operations from my grandmother’s house. So that would ruin her life too.”

http://www.news.com.au/entertainmen...e-cops-about-you/story-fnndfy6b-1227170153928

Original interview

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/...lds-star-witness-adnan-syed-serial-case-pt-1/

Interesting.
 
Gardenlady said:
Unlike Adnan, Jay sounded, even back in 1999 on the stand, humbled and remorseful. Even the judge noted his remorse at his sentencing. I hear the same, but more so in this interview. I hear the voice of a man who did something extremely stupid at age 19, tried to do the right thing but messed it up because he didn't want to end up in jail or get his Gramma in trouble (back in the 80s and 90s there were still VERY long sentences even for just pot - and especially if you were dealing in a school zone. Also - they could, maybe still can - take your house). I can completely see 19 year old Jay being scared $hitless about that.

He's older, hopefully wiser, and is no longer a scared kid, so now he gives the details he was afraid to give back then. His story remains essentially the same on the main details anyway.

Personally I think Adnan has everyone snowed lol. I agree with the poster above about the "pathetic" remark he made. So bitter. It's a word someone would use for a rat or a snitch, which is exactly how he probably viewed Jay.


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What do you think about Jay's new interview where he changes his story yet again? And now says they buried her at midnight? His testimony is worthless.
 
Do we know if Sarah Koenig looked at other cases before settling on this one?

Someone creating a podcast of this nature is going to look for a story with the possibility of innocence in the interests of DRAMA and keeping people coming back for each instalment, and to give the story LEGS.

Think about it, a story about a guy in prison for murdering his girlfriend when a teenager is no story at all if he doesn't protest his innocence, and there is still no story if the narrative doesn't go along with that, otherwise you end up with a non event, a guy in prison who deserves to be.

So of course Sarah looked for a case where there was the possibility of innocence, or at least one where she could skew the story in that way.

Otherwise it's a dud.

Now she is a trained journalist, she has the necessary skills to drive the story into the direction she wants, and to leave out or minimise some factors while putting more weight on others, it's important to be aware of that when taking in any true crime stories, everyone has an agenda, the narrative is in the interests of entertainment and maintaining listeners, not the interests of justice, but it may appear that way sometimes.
 
Mrs G Norris said:
Do we know if Sarah Koenig looked at other cases before settling on this one?

Someone creating a podcast of this nature is going to look for a story with the possibility of innocence in the interests of DRAMA and keeping people coming back for each instalment, and to give the story LEGS.

Think about it, a story about a guy in prison for murdering his girlfriend when a teenager is no story at all if he doesn't protest his innocence, and there is still no story if the narrative doesn't go along with that, otherwise you end up with a non event, a guy in prison who deserves to be.

So of course Sarah looked for a case where there was the possibility of innocence, or at least one where she could skew the story in that way.

Otherwise it's a dud.

Now she is a trained journalist, she has the necessary skills to drive the story into the direction she wants, and to leave out or minimise some factors while putting more weight on others, it's important to be aware of that when taking in any true crime stories, everyone has an agenda, the narrative is in the interests of entertainment and maintaining listeners, not the interests of justice, but it may appear that way sometimes.
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I know that she covered a story about Adnan's attorney Christina Gutierrez at some point, and that Rabia Chaudry contacted Sarah later to see if what she had found out about CG could have any bearing on Adnan's case. CG was disbarred for financial misconduct IIRC. Rabia thought CG may have intentionally lost the trial in order to make money doing the appeal.

I don't know what, if any, other options were, but that is how she got involved with Adnan's case. Rabia is a friend of Adnan's family.
 
Gardenlady said:
For the life of ME, I can't understand anyone believing Adnan. I've known many guys like Jay, and many like Adnan. Adnan was an arrogant suburban kid on the outskirts of trouble who thinks he's better, smarter, and ultimately "harder" than guys like Jay. Whenever he opens his mouth all I can hear is smug arrogance. Even in how he treated Sarah Koenig. He thinks everyone else is "pathetic".


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Whether that's the case or not, smugness doesn't relate to murderous tendencies. (If it did, my annoyingly arrogant French Poetry classmates definitely would have offed one another!)

IMO the most alarming part of this case is that the whole conviction was based on Jay's testimony and Jay is a known liar who's changed his story numerous times. I'm still on the fence as to whether Adnan did it (leaning toward thinking he probably did) but all of Jay's story changes / admissions of lying to police / general inconsistencies give me plenty of reasonable doubt and, for that reason, I think Adnan was unfairly convicted. JMO.
 
I believe koinig became interested in this story because she was a baltimore court reporter and had reported on Adnan's Attorney and her career and disbar. It was brought to her attention from another lawyer who has continued to believe in the innocence of Adnan. Koenig agreed that there were too many unanswered questions, no physical evidence and "reasonable doubt" which sparked her interest in this as a story enough to produce this serial segment for the radio program - This American Life-
 
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