Deceased/Not Found MD - Sarah, 3, & Jacob Hoggle, 2, Clarksburg, 9 Sept 2014 *Arrest*

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smh, if this is accurate, I just DO NOT get it! What does her being competent or not have to do with some how being allowed to accompany police to show them where the kids supposedly are? What am I missing? What could it freaking hurt to try?
 
Well she said she would call "Erin" and when she got the phone she deleted records.

Maybe the judge isn't willing to take the risk that she might try to run away. And if they handcuff her, then the person she is handcuffed to would be at risk of injury if she did try to get free.

If she wanted to tell where the kids are she would be able to do it on a map or by just saying it. The whole "lead us to them" is just another story she is coming out with.

She is mentally unwell, and that is making her deceitful and obstructive. I agree with the judge.

ETA I have just read the article linked above.

Wolfe, however, sided with defense attorneys over concerns about her mental state, in effect, protecting her right not to incriminate herself. Hoggle was sent back to the psychiatric hospital where she is undergoing treatment. Hoggle suffers from paranoid schizophrenia.

"This woman has a diagnosed and published history of psychosis, of paranoia, of delusions," said David Felsen, Hoggle's attorney. "To think that she is in a position where she would be able to render any meaningful assistance or non-assistance just logically makes no sense given the circumstances of this case."

That is key. A sound judgement IMO.
 
When I first read that the judge denied it I was mad. Now I dont know how to feel. I so wish someone in that family would have protected these 2 babies and not let her be alone with them.
 
The facebook page is descending into a froth. Not helpful.

It stuns me how ignorant the world still is about mental illness. People calling for them to MAKE her talk. Even if they did somehow make her talk, she might not actually remember where the kids are or what happened.
 
I'm new to posting in this thread, and frankly hadn't heard of this until just today. I read most pages here though. Several things stick out to me, and they may have already been answered and I missed it...

1. I'm not sure how there is a discrepancy as to whether or not she had been taking her medication if she had daily appointments to manage her illness, and two adults living with her (common law dh and her father, I believe). Though I see it as a fairly moot point, given that a schizophrenic person could still have a psychotic episode while on medication. I just think it's weird that it was a point of confusion at all; this is a serious illness, with heavy meds, and lots of monitoring. Albeit if she had stopped taking them, I feel that she is at least partially culpable in whatever happened/is happening to her children, as she made a conscious choice to stop.

2. A question about paranoid schizophrenia in general: I hear about "psychotic episodes", and that she may have well had one/is currently having one, which is why she won't help find the kids/doesn't know/etc. How long do episodes generally last? I have always thought that there were at least brief periods of relative lucidity in between episodes, or else they wouldn't be "episodes". Right? Hers has got to end at some point and when it does, wouldn't she answer questions? At least say she doesn't remember or something? I'm not getting the vibe from statements being made that this is the case. I feel like everything we've heard says that she is being evasive.

3. This is probably more of an opinion or something, but how in the heck did she get those kids alone? Her husband says she wasn't supposed to have them alone, she wasn't supposed to drive at all (no license), and when they did give her a car and her son to go out for pizza, she came back without the kid and three hours later! Even if she had some great story like "oh we ran into so and so, and he wanted to stay with them, so I thought that would be great! They were so glad to see him!", that would still be really, really suspect and concerning, given her illness... So then they later gave her the car again and her daughter, alone again? My kid hadn't spent the night away from me even at grandparents' houses by age 2. Who was this random person that she claimed took the son when she came back from pizza, that no one would be concerned or at least check up on them? Wouldn't he have needed clothes, a special toy, etc? Why did no one check up on this stuff?? Are grandparents complicit in hiding the kids for some reason? Or were they in denial on the severity of her illness? IMO it's either/or...
 
The facebook page is descending into a froth. Not helpful.

It stuns me how ignorant the world still is about mental illness. People calling for them to MAKE her talk. Even if they did somehow make her talk, she might not actually remember where the kids are or what happened.

I wonder how they want to MAKE her talk? Bamboo shoots under the fingernails? Electrodes attached to her nipples? Water boarding? For goodness sake, the ignorance about mental illness really burns me up.
 
well...I for one am not saying MAKE her talk...that is not how it works. Yes, many do not understand mental illnesses especially if their lives/families have never been affected by any. And just because someone is mentally ill, doesn't automatically mean they are 'stupid', and they shouldn't be treated as such.

On the other hand if a 'froth' will bring more attention to this case, then so be it, it is better than crickets, imho.... as there are two little helpless children out there some where that need found, alive or deceased.
 
This whole thing is just sad. So sad. I don't think those sweet babies are alive any more, it's always great to be hopeful but logically I can't see how it's possible.

I understand why the judge ruled the way he did even though it's frustrating. I wish she would tell her husband where to find them though.
 
I'm new to posting in this thread, and frankly hadn't heard of this until just today. I read most pages here though. Several things stick out to me, and they may have already been answered and I missed it...

1. I'm not sure how there is a discrepancy as to whether or not she had been taking her medication if she had daily appointments to manage her illness, and two adults living with her (common law dh and her father, I believe). Though I see it as a fairly moot point, given that a schizophrenic person could still have a psychotic episode while on medication. I just think it's weird that it was a point of confusion at all; this is a serious illness, with heavy meds, and lots of monitoring. Albeit if she had stopped taking them, I feel that she is at least partially culpable in whatever happened/is happening to her children, as she made a conscious choice to stop.

2. A question about paranoid schizophrenia in general: I hear about "psychotic episodes", and that she may have well had one/is currently having one, which is why she won't help find the kids/doesn't know/etc. How long do episodes generally last? I have always thought that there were at least brief periods of relative lucidity in between episodes, or else they wouldn't be "episodes". Right? Hers has got to end at some point and when it does, wouldn't she answer questions? At least say she doesn't remember or something? I'm not getting the vibe from statements being made that this is the case. I feel like everything we've heard says that she is being evasive.

3. This is probably more of an opinion or something, but how in the heck did she get those kids alone? Her husband says she wasn't supposed to have them alone, she wasn't supposed to drive at all (no license), and when they did give her a car and her son to go out for pizza, she came back without the kid and three hours later! Even if she had some great story like "oh we ran into so and so, and he wanted to stay with them, so I thought that would be great! They were so glad to see him!", that would still be really, really suspect and concerning, given her illness... So then they later gave her the car again and her daughter, alone again? My kid hadn't spent the night away from me even at grandparents' houses by age 2. Who was this random person that she claimed took the son when she came back from pizza, that no one would be concerned or at least check up on them? Wouldn't he have needed clothes, a special toy, etc? Why did no one check up on this stuff?? Are grandparents complicit in hiding the kids for some reason? Or were they in denial on the severity of her illness? IMO it's either/or...

I can kinda answer question 2. Psychosis isn't predictable. It can last from days to many months. My psychotic episode before Christmas lasted about two months and took me 7 months to get fully better including a shorter episode (several weeks) in July. Medication can be hit and miss and it can take trial and error to get the right medication and doses to relieve the symptoms. Even then there is no guarantee that she will remember anything correctly. I can't remember much at all of November/December last year. It's like a complete blank space. Nothing. Occasionally I'll get the odd flash of a memory of something really random. But can't remember anything other than a quick flash of a memory. On the other hand I remember most of what happened in July but that is very scary now, as I remember being paranoid, hearing voices, seeing a child that wasn't there, being scared that the staff looking after me were going to hurt me etc. Sometimes not being able to remember is actually better.
 
Oh and about point 1. People choose to stop medication for many reasons. If the medication is making them symptom free they think "why bother taking it anymore, I am fine now." I also know that anti-psychotic meds have horrendous side effects. They make you feel like a zombie, you have to work hard to concentrate, your thoughts are slowed down, you feel just lethargic and under the weather. You DO end up getting peed off and thinking "I don't want to feel like this. Maybe it would be better to just stop the meds." It's not easy to keep up your regimine at times because you just want to feel "normal".
 
I'm a little confused with what transpired with this latest preceding. Did Catherine's defense attorney argue against the motion to let her show LE where she left the children, even though she had made the request to several people to do so? If that's the case, I can see where the denial by the judge would be a win for the defense to further the mental incompetence agenda, but at what cost? It's certainly not a win for her children. If there's even the slightest chance to gather a lead on where those children are, morally, I don't understand the defense's position to argue against it.
 
Thanks blefuscu! That makes much more sense... So truly, it could be many more months before she comes out enough to truly speak (and only if she remembers)...

I am hopeful she comes out soon (though it will be horrible for her), so she can at least hopefully have info about where the kids are.
 
Oh and about point 1. People choose to stop medication for many reasons. If the medication is making them symptom free they think "why bother taking it anymore, I am fine now." I also know that anti-psychotic meds have horrendous side effects. They make you feel like a zombie, you have to work hard to concentrate, your thoughts are slowed down, you feel just lethargic and under the weather. You DO end up getting peed off and thinking "I don't want to feel like this. Maybe it would be better to just stop the meds." It's not easy to keep up your regimine at times because you just want to feel "normal".

I get that it can be awful and I understand why she might want to discontinue, I'm just surprised that they don't know whether or not she was on her medication, given that she had daily hospital appointments and two adults living with her.
 
I'm a little confused with what transpired with this latest preceding. Did Catherine's defense attorney argue against the motion to let her show LE where she left the children, even though she had made the request to several people to do so? If that's the case, I can see where the denial by the judge would be a win for the defense to further the mental incompetence agenda, but at what cost? It's certainly not a win for her children. If there's even the slightest chance to gather a lead on where those children are, morally, I don't understand the defense's position to argue against it.

How would any defense attorney ever defend their client if they had to act on morals? A murderer or a paedophile?

The system only works if the person on trial has a competent defense that will act in their best interests regardless of the morals of the case.

CHs defense is HER defense. While that man might despair for the children, his JOB is to act in her interests. He has to act in the best interests of his client. The defense has no choice but to argue against it. Morals just don't factor.

I was telling my husband about this case tonight and I realised something. It was said in this thread somewhere that Catherines dad lived with them. So where was he on the sunday night? Wouldn't he have noticed that Jacob didn't arrive back from his "playdate"?

I am not suggesting he was involved at all, I am just trying to understand where he was if he lived with them?
 
Thanks blefuscu! That makes much more sense... So truly, it could be many more months before she comes out enough to truly speak (and only if she remembers)...

I am hopeful she comes out soon (though it will be horrible for her), so she can at least hopefully have info about where the kids are.

No problems.

Yeah it could be months before they stabilise her. And her grasp on reality both at the time of the kids disappearing and now could be greatly diminished. She could have genuinely believed that by killing the children she was "saving" or "protecting" them and if she has buried them may really believe that she has put them somewhere safe.

I know from one hospital stay that there was a woman on our ward who really really badly argued with her husband, she didn't want to be in hospital and had no clue how ill she was. She was completely out of touch with reality, and she screamed daily that she wanted him dead. Tragically he was killed in a car crash and when she came out of the psychotic episode she was completely devastated. Especially when one (not so tactful) relative told her that she had been telling him that he hated her and she wanted him dead. Obviously she didn't but didn't have a clue what she was saying. She was wracked with guilt when her psychotic episode was over.
 
I get that it can be awful and I understand why she might want to discontinue, I'm just surprised that they don't know whether or not she was on her medication, given that she had daily hospital appointments and two adults living with her.

Sometimes people only see what they want to see. They left her alone with the children and they let her drive, because she seemed ok. Who wouldn't want to believe that their loved one was doing good!
 
I think they are working off of two different scenarios from what Dad has said in the media. One a rescue the other a recovery.

Has to be a rescue cause Rt. 70 on a Sunday afternoon is a traffic jam...All the truckers start their loads and you have all the vacationers heading home...
 
I get that it can be awful and I understand why she might want to discontinue, I'm just surprised that they don't know whether or not she was on her medication, given that she had daily hospital appointments and two adults living with her.

I can't answer that. We don't know what she was attending hospital for, if it was to receive meds or for, say, group therapy, occupational therapy etc. I have no andwers for this.
 
Catherine Hoggle Appears in Court; News Conference Followed on Courthouse Steps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsZDbRWUESg&app=desktop

don't forget there is a FB page
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Findjacobandsarah/1470615513220645?ref=br_tf

these poor children, what a mess

I best keep my mouth shut with my opinion
smh, these little ones, gah

I have to say I'm not getting a good feeling about HER attorney, at all. Something about this guy just doesn't ring true, IMO.
 
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