Members' Theories

[ami]

If you pretend PR is completely innocent, and you read and review her statements and everything you know about her from this perspective, and, you keep in the back of your mind (pretending it's true) that she has been advised by counsel not to volunteer any information, along with his/her other suggestions, what "sense" do you develop about her then?

I can do that to a certain point. I was born in a big northern city and then moved and lived for 7 years in the south. The way people live their lives there is different, and I can't always understand their choices. I'm totally willing to believe that some of the "off" feelings I get are cultural differences. Like the pageants - I can't understand them, I don't like them, but I accept that it's considered an innocent and character-building activity in certain circles.

I wish in her interrogations that her lawyer hadn't been so quick to restrict certain lines of questioning. For legal reasons, so her words couldn't be twisted and used later in a court case, I get it. For personal curiosity reasons, I wish she would have answered some of them. I don't believe she killed her daughter - I just feel like there is something she's hiding. Maybe she's protecting someone, or maybe she feels guilt as a parent that she perhaps put JBR in the spotlight that eventually killed her, and that parental guilt comes out around the edges in odd ways. I don't know.

 

[WHITEFANG]

"The Ramsey's didn't collapse with grief either."

I believe they were destroyed, emotionally, psychologically and physically for some time. I believe Patsy was done, for good, and that she never recovered at all from the loss of her child and from the media blitz attacking her as the perpetrator of a hideous, unspeakable crime.

Patsy Ramsey was, above all, a "mom." She was motherly, nurturing, and her life revolved around the well-being of her kids. She was not eloquent. She was not a polished, intellectually sophisticated, Ivy league educated, cosmopolitan woman of the world. She was dedicated to her kids and would do anything for them.

 

[DeeDee249]

"The Ramsey's didn't collapse with grief either."

I believe they were destroyed, emotionally, psychologically and physically for some time. I believe Patsy was done, for good, and that she never recovered at all from the loss of her child and from the media blitz attacking her as the perpetrator of a hideous, unspeakable crime.

Patsy Ramsey was, above all, a "mom." She was motherly, nurturing, and her life revolved around the well-being of her kids. She was not eloquent. She was not a polished, intellectually sophisticated, Ivy league educated, cosmopolitan woman of the world. She was dedicated to her kids and would do anything for them.

Partially true. Patsy WAS intelligent and educated. She was a smart woman. She loved her kids. She was polished, and extremely concerned about appearances. She was also a cancer survivor, and as anyone who is also one, or knows someone who is, treatments and hormonal imbalances play havoc with someone's personality. Hair-trigger temper outbursts are not uncommon, nor is behavior which is out of character for the person. Patsy was also on some heavy-duty meds, Klonipin is one that was found prescribed to her in her home. Don't rule out the part these things may have played that night.
There needn't have been ANY prior behavior like this, nor any indication this would happen. People on that drug, and other like it, should NOT drink alcohol, even a glass of wine. Patsy had wine that day at the White's.
She snapped. End of story. It happens. It really does.

 

[ami]

She snapped. End of story. It happens. It really does.

Sometimes people snap, sure. But JR and PR are two as you said intelligent, educated people. In a moment of rage you accidentally crack your loved, wanted, child's head. What is your response? You're saying this is a snap of rage, not a methodical psychopathic killer. So you accidentally seriously injure your child: You are in denial, you call 911 because she might or might not still be breathing, you try CPR like you've seen it on TV, if you are desperate and afraid you'll be charged with a crime you "stage" the bathroom to make it look like she fell and hit her head hard on the tub.

Although I believe PR knows something, it defies logic to think that after a regretted hormonal snap of rage there was no call for help once she realized the damage, there was no horrified middle of the night phone call to the family doctor pleading for help, there was instead an elaborate sexually staged scene with an incongruous ransom note, the body not left to be 'found' in the bed or living room, where the fake intruder could have left her and avoided the necessity of a ransom note, but left in the basement, while some very obvious, crime-linking evidence was left in plain sight like the pad and pen and flashlight, while other evidence like tape and cords was snuck stealthily out by family members far later, none of whom cracked and asked why, none breathing a word. It's so elaborate. Before dialing 911 they could have snuck out or hidden the glaring evidence, but they didn't.

I just keep coming back to - JR was a smart, canny man. He wouldn't have left so many loose ends. He could have staged a far more convincing scene, with less or even no evidence, an open window at the very least. He could have staged a domestic accident - it was the middle of the night, bathrooms have slippery floors, whoops there was a liquid soap spill or a rug without noslip backing, terrible accident, "save my baby!".

I also think PR was really kind of "off". But the staging of that poor child... was way too much for an accidental injury coverup.

 

[WHITEFANG]

So, to make it look like a murder she strangled her daughter? Preposterous. Absurd. Beyond the realm of possibility. Ridiculous.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Partially true. Patsy WAS intelligent and educated. She was a smart woman. She loved her kids. She was polished, and extremely concerned about appearances. She was also a cancer survivor, and as anyone who is also one, or knows someone who is, treatments and hormonal imbalances play havoc with someone's personality. Hair-trigger temper outbursts are not uncommon, nor is behavior which is out of character for the person. Patsy was also on some heavy-duty meds, Klonipin is one that was found prescribed to her in her home. Don't rule out the part these things may have played that night.
There needn't have been ANY prior behavior like this, nor any indication this would happen. People on that drug, and other like it, should NOT drink alcohol, even a glass of wine. Patsy had wine that day at the White's.
She snapped. End of story. It happens. It really does.

Polished in the sense that she was trained/experienced in public speaking, as in fielding questions from a national media feeding frenzy, as in a politician or a prominent national figure.

Is there proof in the literature that Klonopin has caused a freak reaction like that, even one time, even mixed with alcohol?

 

[joeskidbeck]

Were we ever able to see a list of all the medications that Patsy was taking during that time? If there is one, I would love to see it. Can anyone provide a link for that?

TIA
Becky

 

[BBB167893]

John regretted not consulting a lawyer sooner, he said. If no one disagrees that the Rs loved JB, can you imagine finding your daughter dead and then deciding to alter the crime scene/corpse to protect another family member, leaving the corpse on the floor in your basement for hours as part of the ploy, contriving such a sick scheme within moments of making such a horrendous discovery? Could you do that? Can you think of any parents you know, who love their children, who could?

I've asked myself that question many times, and there are any number of reasons why they would go along with it, numero uno being that when two people commit murder together, they're stuck for life. Killing someone isn't like taking a bus ride; you can't get off at different stops. They had to threaten Hedda Nusbaum with PRISON to get her to testify against her child-killing husband!

 

[DeeDee249]

Polished in the sense that she was trained/experienced in public speaking, as in fielding questions from a national media feeding frenzy, as in a politician or a prominent national figure.

Is there proof in the literature that Klonopin has caused a freak reaction like that, even one time, even mixed with alcohol?[/QUOTE

Read the list of side effects on any medication you have, even OTC. It lists POSSIBLE side effects, so not sure what you mean by "proof". Possible side effects mean that someone DID have that side effect at some point, or it wouldn't be listed. ALL medications in that same drug class (as Klonipin) have the same warning- not to use alcohol.
Drugs like that may also produce psychological side effects without the use of alcohol. Even over-the-counter ones, like certain sleep aids, do.

 

[BBB167893]

Sometimes people snap, sure. But JR and PR are two as you said intelligent, educated people. In a moment of rage you accidentally crack your loved, wanted, child's head. What is your response? You're saying this is a snap of rage, not a methodical psychopathic killer. So you accidentally seriously injure your child: You are in denial, you call 911 because she might or might not still be breathing, you try CPR like you've seen it on TV, if you are desperate and afraid you'll be charged with a crime you "stage" the bathroom to make it look like she fell and hit her head hard on the tub.

Although I believe PR knows something, it defies logic to think that after a regretted hormonal snap of rage there was no call for help once she realized the damage, there was no horrified middle of the night phone call to the family doctor pleading for help, there was instead an elaborate sexually staged scene with an incongruous ransom note, the body not left to be 'found' in the bed or living room, where the fake intruder could have left her and avoided the necessity of a ransom note, but left in the basement, while some very obvious, crime-linking evidence was left in plain sight like the pad and pen and flashlight, while other evidence like tape and cords was snuck stealthily out by family members far later, none of whom cracked and asked why, none breathing a word. It's so elaborate. Before dialing 911 they could have snuck out or hidden the glaring evidence, but they didn't.

I just keep coming back to - JR was a smart, canny man. He wouldn't have left so many loose ends. He could have staged a far more convincing scene, with less or even no evidence, an open window at the very least. He could have staged a domestic accident - it was the middle of the night, bathrooms have slippery floors, whoops there was a liquid soap spill or a rug without noslip backing, terrible accident, "save my baby!".

I also think PR was really kind of "off". But the staging of that poor child... was way too much for an accidental injury coverup.

I've posted my thoughts on ALL of these points, but this thread isn't the place.

 

[BBB167893]

So, to make it look like a murder she strangled her daughter? Preposterous. Absurd. Beyond the realm of possibility. Ridiculous.

Check out the "loved to death" thread. You might change your mind.

 

[DeeDee249]

So, to make it look like a murder she strangled her daughter? Preposterous. Absurd. Beyond the realm of possibility. Ridiculous.

All of these EXCEPT beyond the realm of possibility.

Things like this CAN happen.
ANYTHING can happen.

 

[ami]

All of these EXCEPT beyond the realm of possibility.

Totally agree it's not beyond the realm of possibility, sadly. It's just that in this case there doesn't seem to be proof.

I've posted my thoughts on ALL of these points, but this thread isn't the place.

Admittedly very new on this forum and still getting the lay of the land, but not very sure what the point of saying that is. That I'm posting my thoughts in the wrong place? If so, I'll move 'em.

 

[DeeDee249]

Totally agree it's not beyond the realm of possibility, sadly. It's just that in this case there doesn't seem to be proof.



Admittedly very new on this forum and still getting the lay of the land, but not very sure what the point of saying that is. That I'm posting my thoughts in the wrong place? If so, I'll move 'em.

No need, Ami- it wasn't meant as a criticism. Your thoughts (and theories) belong right here. What was meant is that this thread is not supposed to be for discussion. Yet, we get carried away sometimes (me, especially) and it turns into a regular discussion thread. We are only supposed to post our THEORIES here and then repeat it on an appropriate thread.

 

[BBB167893]

Admittedly very new on this forum and still getting the lay of the land, but not very sure what the point of saying that is. That I'm posting my thoughts in the wrong place? If so, I'll move 'em.

My point is that this thread forbids back-and-forth. I was trying to warn you.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I'm not going to post the whole of my theory right now, but feel compelled, as an RDI, to say that in no way do I feel like either of the R's murdered their daughter on purpose. Absolutely not. If being an RDI required that opinion, I would look for any other theory to back. But...I do believe it was done by accident by a member of this family, who then panicked and started an elaborate cover up. From many posts by IDI's, it seems you believe we think it was cold blooded murder, and for most of us, that's not so.

 

[WHITEFANG]

I'm not going to post the whole of my theory right now, but feel compelled, as an RDI, to say that in no way do I feel like either of the R's murdered their daughter on purpose. Absolutely not. If being an RDI required that opinion, I would look for any other theory to back. But...I do believe it was done by accident by a member of this family, who then panicked and started an elaborate cover up. From many posts by IDI's, it seems you believe we think it was cold blooded murder, and for most of us, that's not so.

Say the Ramseys had a dog that one of them ran over by accident. Can you picture Patsy making a garrote, placing it around his neck and tightening it, twice, for any reason? I can't.
The redness present where the garrote cut off her air supply suggests she was alive at the time.
Is there proof P was taking a benzodiazepene when JonBenet was murdered? The placebo used during Klonopin test trials produced violent reactions as well.

 

[joeskidbeck]

If you have ever looked into the eyes of a person who is brain dead, you will know that from all appearances, they are dead. I believe that after the head injury, her breathing and pulse were so shallow as to appear non existent. They really believed she was dead, but it became apparent during the staging that she was still alive, so someone had to stop her breathing. I do NOT believe this was Patsy. More likely JR.
I do belive the head injury was caused by Patsy in a fit of rage. Everyone seems to believe she was taking Klonipin (she may have talked about this in an interview, not sure which one). I think JR went along with this because he had already lost one daughter and this is going to mean that he will lose Patsy and JB. He may not have been the warmest man alive, but I don't think he wanted Patsy to spend her last days in prison.

 

[DeeDee249]

Say the Ramseys had a dog that one of them ran over by accident. Can you picture Patsy making a garrote, placing it around his neck and tightening it, twice, for any reason? I can't.
The redness present where the garrote cut off her air supply suggests she was alive at the time.
Is there proof P was taking a benzodiazepene when JonBenet was murdered? The placebo used during Klonopin test trials produced violent reactions as well.

JR discusses Patsy's use of Klonipin in a depo with LE. She allegedly took it before JB's death, and not after. That is suspicious to me, if true. If it's true, then it is possible the violent outburst which caused JB's death was blamed on the Klonipin and that's why she stopped taking it. There may have been other meds in the house, as well as Patsy's (probably permanent) altered personality from her chemo treatments.

I totally agree with joeskidbeck that this was NOT deliberate, pre-meditated or otherwise, murder. I think most RDI agree. There are some exceptions, I am sure, but not that I have seen much of. I simply see NO evidence that either parent would PLAN to kill JB.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Say the Ramseys had a dog that one of them ran over by accident. Can you picture Patsy making a garrote, placing it around his neck and tightening it, twice, for any reason? I can't.
The redness present where the garrote cut off her air supply suggests she was alive at the time.
Is there proof P was taking a benzodiazepene when JonBenet was murdered? The placebo used during Klonopin test trials produced violent reactions as well.

I see yor point Whitefang, but running over the family dog would not have sent her to prison.