Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #10

[wasnt_me]

Rigor mortis, livor mortis, and body temperature are all commonly used to determine TOD as well; I am assuming the pathologist used these methods, too?

addendum: I suppose stomach contents is more exact than the above, on second thought. But am now reading this article about the Massei Report on TOD: http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/explaining_the_massei_report_establishing_the_time_when_meredith_passe/

To me, their deduction to 1130pm arrived in a convulted manner. They would have changed it, had they looked more closely at that bank call.

 

[Allusonz]

*Sigh* Probably wasting my time here, but does anyone have an actual, reputable source for the alleged fact that there was semen on the pillow?

I find references to it in the comments section on this page:
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/evolution_of_the_wikipedia_article_on_the_murder_of_meredith_kercher/

and the comments section of this page:
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2011/02/trial-for-amanda-knoxs-parents.html

and in this "opinion" piece:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/david-c-anderson-amanda-knox-is-a-victim-of-italian-pride-2185628.html


but I'm not finding references to it other than people online referring to it as fact.

I'm having difficulties believing that a stain was tested and came back as being semen, then was left at that, so...a little help pointing towards a citation would be pretty cool here...TIA

I am guessing that much of this for the most part was included in the in Chambers session and please dont quote me word for word but it was actually IIRC the court that stated to the effect that they could not "date" the stain as she was sexually active

The other part that points to this is RS's appeal

I will see if I can find some links when this weather settles

 

[wasnt_me]

SMK, you're putting in overtime tonight!

Good job on your research! :rocker:

 

[wasnt_me]

Did RS have to be there when the cartoon finished? Or could he have just walked away and left the computer running?

Do you know?

Say he started it and left. How long does it take to get to the cottage from his house?

 

[Allusonz]

A few posts back you said there might be a grain of truth to some of the things Rudy claimed early on, so I started thinking about it...

in the other article, it specifically mentions the sheet being wrapped around her. I don't believe I had ever read that before.

I read, in more recent articles, the top sheet was crumpled or tossed underneath the duvet -

Sometimes I think there is a grain of truth in some of the early information.

this might explain the car seen by reliable witnesses and early on, Rudy specifically mentions it while he was detained in Germany. (pretty sure he was still in Germany)

I tend to agree with Malkmus and his theory

someone did put (what appears to be a full load) of Meredith's clothes in the washing machine - someone was Meredith.

I agree Miley. I truly have thought there was someone else here for along time now. I don't believe that he would of even had to of called someone he could of been with the person originally. Unfortunately, although alot of clues like you have posted but nothing I can state factually with any certainty

 

[SMK]

*Sigh* Probably wasting my time here, but does anyone have an actual, reputable source for the alleged fact that there was semen on the pillow?

I find references to it in the comments section on this page:
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/evolution_of_the_wikipedia_article_on_the_murder_of_meredith_kercher/

and the comments section of this page:
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2011/02/trial-for-amanda-knoxs-parents.html

and in this "opinion" piece:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/david-c-anderson-amanda-knox-is-a-victim-of-italian-pride-2185628.html


but I'm not finding references to it other than people online referring to it as fact.

I'm having difficulties believing that a stain was tested and came back as being semen, then was left at that, so...a little help pointing towards a citation would be pretty cool here...TIA

good lord, i hope this was not one of those rumors which was stated so often it became fact

 

[SMK]

And perhaps that half-deaf woman might hear you, too.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[SMK]

SMK, you're putting in overtime tonight!

Good job on your research! :rocker:

gee, thanks!!!:blushing:

 

[SMK]

Thanks.

The same article on this link seems to be getting at what we were talking about earlier with the cell phone call to the bank:

But there's something more. According to Bongiorno the call that started from Meredith's english cellphone at 10.13 pm detected the presence of the mobile phone in the garden where it will be found the day after. This means that at about 10 pm the murder was already consumed and the killer was already going to throw the cellphones away. Which would set Raffaele, and by consequence Amanda, out of the games.

The call was the one made to the bank. A call that couldn't be successful because dialed the way the number was memorized, without the +44 code of England. A call which could have been made even by mistake. But it was successful, instead, to show the cell in which the phone was. Bongiorno is sure that the cell can only be the one of the garden.

Can someone explain to me what the phrase in blue is getting at? Oh, wait. Instead of "presence," does he mean "location?"

Thanks!

Yes, I would assume it means "location"--they are translating from Italian as they write, so always a bit odd phrasing there.

 

[wasnt_me]

Yes, I do not want to be overhasty either, and this is very psychological, but it got my thoughts to racing. In addition to my other remarks: I had noticed in pictures and video footage (the one she appeared in for the band) that Meredith had very alluring and deep eyes. I can picture a lost guy like Rudy, coming from a brutal past, and longing for his "Momma", reading TOO much into Meredith's sweet eyes, and her kind voice and friendly remarks. He may have believed he had at long last "found the one true Beloved".

It is VERY telling that you noticed his mentioning of "waiting". This sounds like a person SEIZED with excitement, as in the delusion that Meredith loved him. Also, it is telling that when he speaks of Meredith bleeding, he reverts back to his father smashing a stick over his own head and causing copious blood. The pain of rejection from Meredith brought out rage at his own father from boyhood.

Also, he puts into Meredith's mouth the words "please don't leave me"--but these were likely his OWN feelings. And perhaps he thought, "OH--I thought I was about to embark on the love of my life---she tells me now I am unwanted, nothing----so I revert back to the "Bad Rudy", who is only a burglar, only after $$$, so I better go break the window to fit in with my OWN MO---I was NOT a lover, I was only a robber. THIS could be why he "faked his OWN MO" with the rock and the window!!!:waitasec::waitasec::waitasec:

RG has a motive to stage the crime scene.

After reading his diary, you'll see he keeps talking about his friends, namely Alex. And he sees Alex on the day of the murder. He also makes it known to friends that he has a "date." I don't know in truth if he told Alex who the "date" was with or where he was going--or if Alex was the only person he told. But I'm GUESSING that maybe he felt people KNEW he was going to MK's or that he was infatuated with her, so he had to make it look like a burglarly.

Remember, in his mind, he was going there hoping to get lucky, not rob. So when things went wrong, he could POSSIBLY have thought many people knew he had a thing for MK or was going there that night.

Kind of like "Tale-Tell Heart" by Edgar Allen Poe. Remember in the story, it was the murderers thoughts of what other people knew or heard that did him in. So like I'm saying, maybe in his own mind, he felt EVERYBODY knew about his crush on MK, as well as the fact that SHE should have known it and responded to it (in his mind, anyways.)

Remember how he speaks earlier in the diary about him being a "Cassanova" or something to that effect. He was denying that he was or felt that he was, but i believe that denial was a coverup for some ineptness he has with women. JUST GUESSING. I'm not a psychiatrist.

 

[SMK]

RG has a motive to stage the crime scene.

After reading his diary, you'll see he keeps talking about his friends, namely Alex. And he sees Alex on the day of the murder. He also makes it known to friends that he has a "date." I don't know in truth if he told Alex who the "date" was with or where he was going--or if Alex was the only person he told. But I'm GUESSING that maybe he felt people KNEW he was going to MK's or that he was infatuated with her, so he had to make it look like a burglarly.

Remember, in his mind, he was going there hoping to get lucky, not rob. So when things went wrong, he could POSSIBLY have thought many people knew he had a thing for MK or was going there that night.

Kind of like "Tale-Tell Heart" by Edgar Allen Poe. Remember in the story, it was the murderers thoughts of what other people knew or heard that did him in. So like I'm saying, maybe in his own mind, he felt EVERYBODY knew about his crush on MK, as well as the fact that SHE should have known it and responded to it (in his mind, anyways.)

Remember how he speaks earlier in the diary about him being a "Cassanova" or something to that effect. He was denying that he was or felt that he was, but i believe that denial was a coverup for some ineptness he has with women. JUST GUESSING. I'm not a psychiatrist.

No, you may not be a psychiatrist, but you are in fact making some very, very psychologically astute observations, inferences, and deductions. You are correct: If he went to the cottage that night thinking he would be the big Casanova with Meredith (and you are right, he doth protest too much), and thinking this would be a magical night of love and sex----only to be rejected, scorned, and wind up killing the object of his infatuation--------then what would his friends whom he told, as you say, think? Make it look like a robbery (to Rudy, probably many robbers use rocks and break windows)----Yes, this may or may not be true, but it has MANY evidential facts on its side, and is a very compelling and seductive theory, IMO.

 

[wasnt_me]

Yeah, if he'd faked the scene, he probably thought he could scale the wall to the window, no problem, cause he's a pro at that.

And as far as his friends KNOWING that he was a thief. Not sure they did. He'd only known these people he'd been around for how long? wasn't he a drifter? So his associates might not have known about his criminal activities.

Did he live in Milan two weeks prior or was he just visiting? I'm not sure about this stuff, either, just guessing. But I doubt he'd have announced to his friends that he was robbing folks. his casual friends, I mean, like the boys downstairs, or the girls who lived in his apartment complex. or thoses spanish people. He probably wouldn't have announced his thievery to them. Do you think?

 

[Allusonz]

Thanks.

The same article on this link seems to be getting at what we were talking about earlier with the cell phone call to the bank:

But there's something more. According to Bongiorno the call that started from Meredith's english cellphone at 10.13 pm detected the presence of the mobile phone in the garden where it will be found the day after. This means that at about 10 pm the murder was already consumed and the killer was already going to throw the cellphones away. Which would set Raffaele, and by consequence Amanda, out of the games.

The call was the one made to the bank. A call that couldn't be successful because dialed the way the number was memorized, without the +44 code of England. A call which could have been made even by mistake. But it was successful, instead, to show the cell in which the phone was. Bongiorno is sure that the cell can only be the one of the garden.

Can someone explain to me what the phrase in blue is getting at? Oh, wait. Instead of "presence," does he mean "location?"

Thanks!

I have to agree with Nova on this. These call times as well as the 20:13pm one specifically have been often overlooked I believe and they are telling a story here IMO. The fact that it hit on a mast(cell tower) that it had never pinged off of before is a very important piece of information

 

[wasnt_me]

As far as him and AK:

I look at it like this. The prosecution asserts that AK is some seductress that put these two men up to this. If that's the case, why is RG's diary ALL about MK?

One time, he speaks of AK in a sexual manner, and that's because he says he and the boys downstairs were all fantasizing about sexing her. As men sit around doing--or so RG claims.

Other than that, he wasn't really even ever focused on AK in the diary. It was constant thoughts of the times he'd met or seen MK. AK is an afterthought, wallpaper, to him.

He even had a part in the diary where he claimed he had no preference toward British or American girls, but oh, did you read how excited he got when he'd heard that MK was british?

And he makes it as if they had all these long talks and crap.

Anyways, RG is still focused to the day of the diary pages on MK. And as for his friends urging him to go back and tell the truth, it was likely because he was brooding and mourning over what he'd done to a woman he had this one-sided love affair with. He probably appeared so heartbroken that his german friends believed that he really had been sitting on the toilet when the murder happened.

But you can't tell me that the half-deaf lady heard a scream across the roadway with the cottage doors and windows closed, but RG didn't hear it while having ipod in and dropping logs.

 

[wasnt_me]

I have to agree with Nova on this. These call times as well as the 20:13pm one specifically have been often overlooked I believe and they are telling a story here IMO. The fact that it hit on a mast(cell tower) that it had never pinged off of before is a very important piece of information

Yeah, he was originally agreeing with me, possibly off something I was agreeing with SMK about, which possibly you also were conferring on. :crazy:

But yes, we 4 are in agreement about this.

 

[Allusonz]

Yeah, he was originally agreeing with me, possibly off something I was agreeing with SMK about, which possibly you also were conferring on. :crazy:

But yes, we 4 are in agreement about this.

Now that might be a record for this forum :giggle:

 

[Allusonz]

As far as him and AK:

I look at it like this. The prosecution asserts that AK is some seductress that put these two men up to this. If that's the case, why is RG's diary ALL about MK?

One time, he speaks of AK in a sexual manner, and that's because he says he and the boys downstairs were all fantasizing about sexing her. As men sit around doing--or so RG claims.

Other than that, he wasn't really even ever focused on AK in the diary. It was constant thoughts of the times he'd met or seen MK. AK is an afterthought, wallpaper, to him.

He even had a part in the diary where he claimed he had no preference toward British or American girls, but oh, did you read how excited he got when he'd heard that MK was british?

And he makes it as if they had all these long talks and crap.

Anyways, RG is still focused to the day of the diary pages on MK. And as for his friends urging him to go back and tell the truth, it was likely because he was brooding and mourning over what he'd done to a woman he had this one-sided love affair with. He probably appeared so heartbroken that his german friends believed that he really had been sitting on the toilet when the murder happened.

But you can't tell me that the half-deaf lady heard a scream across the roadway with the cottage doors and windows closed, but RG didn't hear it while having ipod in and dropping logs.

Again I have to agree with this. After reading his diary I found it to be illuminating to say the least

 

[wasnt_me]

RG's diary. Toward the ending:

If you're hiding something Amanda, please say it. Why
have you accused Patrick? In order for the person who
told me "Black man found, guilty man found" to think I
was Patrick? Did you all already know whom to
blame? I am sure that Meredith was still alive. If you
say you slept at home, why didn’t you call an
ambulance, but instead slept quietly (NDT without a
thought).

Why is RG saying this? It feels to be one of those things Otto calls a "Fruedian Slip."

And why does he think AK slept at the cottage that night?

And if he's SURE MK was alive, why was he on the dance floor at the club instead of on the phone at the club, making a call to the police?

Not only does RG reek of ordor and filth, he reeks of guilt.

 

[wasnt_me]

Then they shown the picture of the footprint which contains a little Y-shaped blank area. That blank area, in their interpretation, is a piece of the glass of the window, which stuck under Rudy's shoe. This would prove that he really entered from the window.

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/10/raffaele-was-watching-cartoons.html

What is this "Y" shape stuff they are talking about in this article?


More on this shoe print with glass in it:

We’ll be hearing more about all six footprints in court. Below you can see the two images that will highlight the debate at the re-start of the hearing. Oggi says: “To the left, a diagram of glass lying next to a shoe print left by Rudy Guede. For the lawyers of Amanda and Raffaele this is another sign against the Ivorian: it would show that he entered the house after breaking down a window. To the right, the five prints that, to his astonishment, Prof. Vinci (Sollecito’s expert) found on the pillowcase of the cushion on which lay the body of Meredith. There is an entire left shoe print and the sole is of a Nike Outbreak 2 number 45, the same worn by Guede the night of the crime.”

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2009/09/12/amanda-knox-murder-trial-taking-aim-at-rudy-guede/

 

[jjenny]

I can also guess this the other way. Say RG was bugging AK about talking to MK, but AK was like "She has a bF." but RG kept insisting that AK try to help hook him up.

So maybe AK gave in finally and said okay, go by the house tonight or tomorrow or whatever, and she'll be home studying, but I already told you she had a BF.

Maybe when RS and Ak realized they didn't have any plans for the night because she was free from work, AK said, "Let's go to the house and see if that RG tried to get a date with MK."

So they go to the cottage, expecting MK to tell them how RG was over there, trying to hook up with her but she told him to get lost; however, when they arrive, RG is struggling to kill MK.

He runs out of the house, leaving RS and AK with the murder scene. They don't know what to do, so they cover MK up and stage a scene. Thus the scream and running old half deaf lady heard could have come out the front door. It could have been AK screaming and RG running away. AK and RS could have used towels to try to save MK. Then, knowing they were leaving prints and in the middle of a murder scene, starting staging things and cleaning up traces of themselves.

Again, it's a guess. Theorizing only. Even if you don't agree with it, you can't say I don't ever try to look at the other side.

What would be a motive for them to stage a scene? I presume any normal person in such a situation would have called police.