Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[emyr]

ah, I see what you're saying (about the collection issue) but what about the experts saying "no dna" found on clasp -
isn't there a difference between no dna vs. contaminated dna.

this issue I don't understand.

DNA degrades over time unless you somehow are able to put it in stasis (like a vacuum). The clasps rusted, and the exposure that caused the rust would have also wiped out any DNA on it.

I noticed that the DNA results on the bra clasp had peaks for Meredith at 1000 and peaks for Raffaelle at around 100. A big point about the bra clasp was that "copious" amounts of DNA was found. I'm not so sure how we know this is true. If Meredith's peaks were at a 1000, that's a strong signal. A peak at a bit over 100 is not extremely strong, but it's not below 50 which is where most people stop paying attention.

 

[emyr]

but was it based on deception or ignorance? (both?) I don't understand why basic rules were broken.. was it all bogus to begin with?
I can't figure it out.

from SMK's yahoo article above:

...He also highlighted how instead of putting the clasp into a paper bag it had been placed into a plastic bag adding that the risk of contamination was ''significant'' as a result of how it had been collected.​

I don't know if I agree with w_m that Stefanoni just made Raffaelle appear. I looked over the documents and the print out shows that all of Raffaelle's Y profile can fit into the profile, and all of his DNA peaks can fit. I think Maundy did a good job showing that Casey Anthony and Amanda Knox weren't there, so we have a real world example of the ability to definitively rule out someone. Raffaelle cannot be ruled out, and that's not just a piece of slightly bad luck, but mathematically very bad luck. (Because Rudy, Amanda, and Casey Anthony can all be ruled out of that profile, so that means statistically more people can be ruled out than ruled in).

That being said, the evidence HAS been extremely weakened that the DNA actually is him on the clasp. That's because we've been shown evidence of additional peaks that were ruled out and that the new experts say there's no reason to rule them out. That means there could be multiple profiles on the clasp, and at a certain level, you can't confirm anyone's profile on the clasp if it becomes too crowded.

As an example, Raffaelle's 30 peaks matches 11 of Meredith's peaks. He matches 6 additional unique peaks of Casey Anthony. That's 17 out of 30 peaks matched with 2 people. Add someone else in the mix and you've probably only got 9 unique peaks left. At that point, can you really be sure that he's on the clasp? Obviously Casey Anthony wasn't on the clasp, but it seems pretty certain that someone else was. The more people on the clasp the less certain you can be. At some point you can rule people out, but not rule them in.

What is still damaging for Sollecito is that the profile resulting from that clasp cannot rule him out.

 

[SMK]

This is a reminder to me that however promising things look for the convictions being overturned right now, this case, as in the Casey Anthony case, has no certain outcome until the verdict is read:

Clearly, these findings are good news for the defence. But the big question is how they well they will withstand scrutiny in the courtroom.
[. . . ]
The court feels that both the bra-clasp evidence and the knife evidence are unreliable, then the question at the back of their minds will be whether enough evidence remains to uphold the convictions of Knox and Sollecito.

If the report of the assize court is anything to go by, then there quite plainly is. But the appeal court is not necessarily obliged to agree with the lower court on every point. For the defence, it is probably a vain hope that a different conclusion will be reached on every single item of the prosecution case. But how much evidence will be enough?

Most of this evidence isn’t due to get discussed again in court. It will, instead, be discussed by the judges in private. So, whatever happens over the next few sessions, it may be that there is no real indication of what the verdict will be until the moment it is announced.

http://maundygregory.wordpress.com/

 

[milliac]

but was it based on deception or ignorance? (both?) I don't understand why basic rules were broken.. was it all bogus to begin with?
I can't figure it out.

from SMK's yahoo article above:

...He also highlighted how instead of putting the clasp into a paper bag it had been placed into a plastic bag adding that the risk of contamination was ''significant'' as a result of how it had been collected.​

Wow. I just read the comments on that Yahoo article. People are flipping mad and still feel she is guilty. They insist there is other evidence and she shouldn't get off just because the DNA issue. I guess I need to keep investigating what evidence they are talking about. From what I can see, it seems the worse thing she did was to implicate her ex-boss. She really messed that up.

Will we have another veridict like Casey Anthony that upsets the public court of opinion?

 

[SMK]

Wow. I just read the comments on that Yahoo article. People are flipping mad and still feel she is guilty. They insist there is other evidence and she shouldn't get off just because the DNA issue. I guess I need to keep investigating what evidence they are talking about. From what I can see, it seems the worse thing she did was to implicate her ex-boss. She really messed that up.

Will we have another veridict like Casey Anthony that upsets the public court of opinion?

We may. But it is the judicial courts and judges and juries, and not the court of public opinion, which must be respected.

 

[sherlockh]

Wow. I just read the comments on that Yahoo article. People are flipping mad and still feel she is guilty. They insist there is other evidence and she shouldn't get off just because the DNA issue. I guess I need to keep investigating what evidence they are talking about. From what I can see, it seems the worse thing she did was to implicate her ex-boss. She really messed that up.

Will we have another veridict like Casey Anthony that upsets the public court of opinion?

I am sure you have seen the long lists of evidence printed on the internet and in this thread as well. The media campaign that is going on all goes back to the Knox family and their hired propaganda team. People just love innocent and entertainment. It is pretty sad. The knife and bra clasp is not the only evidence but how come it is being reported like that? If you try to be objective for a moment then you see that a little criticism about the media reporting is in its place here.

For as far as I can tell now, the independent experts are not doing the defense any favors. It is just way over the top. They are practically criticizing every part of the investigation and that was not their assignment. I would have expected a far more cautious approach and not insult the whole investigation including the legal system because after all many judges have already looked at this case as well. This is going to backfire on the defense IMO. On the other hand, it is a bit premature to really say where all of this is going

 

[SMK]

I am sure you have seen the long lists of evidence printed on the internet and in this thread as well. The media campaign that is going on all goes back to the Knox family and their hired propaganda team. People just love innocent and entertainment. It is pretty sad. The knife and bra clasp is not the only evidence but how come it is being reported like that? If you try to be objective for a moment then you see that a little criticism about the media reporting is in its place here.

For as far as I can tell now, the independent experts are not doing the defense any favors. It is just way over the top. They are practically criticizing every part of the investigation and that was not their assignment. I would have expected a far more cautious approach and not insult the whole investigation including the legal system because after all many judges have already looked at this case as well. This is going to backfire on the defense IMO. On the other hand, it is a bit premature to really say where all of this is going ;)

I agree. It is never a good idea to be too sure of anything when there is still a question as to the outcome. Cautiousness and a more tentative approach are always a good idea.

 

[evelyn24]

Wow. I just read the comments on that Yahoo article. People are flipping mad and still feel she is guilty. They insist there is other evidence and she shouldn't get off just because the DNA issue. I guess I need to keep investigating what evidence they are talking about. From what I can see, it seems the worse thing she did was to implicate her ex-boss. She really messed that up.

Will we have another veridict like Casey Anthony that upsets the public court of opinion?

Comments on places like Yahoo are not an indication of what the public thinks..lol

Most of the people commenting are from certain websites or have agendas. I think most of the general public don't have an opinion on this case, and the ones that do are split on G vs NG.

 

[milliac]

Comments on places like Yahoo are not an indication of what the public thinks..lol

Most of the people commenting are from certain websites or have agendas. I think most of the general public don't have an opinion on this case, and the ones that do are split on G vs NG.

As of Thursday last week I was one of the public who had no opinion or knew details about this case. Most comments on Yahoo seemed to be people not from the US. I was surprised at the hate of Americans over this. Goodness... I am so naive. LOL. I know what you mean though about people with agendas.

 

[Nova]

Well, sure is highly suspicious, isn't it? To make such errors seems more than incompetence.

I know you like Mignini, SMK, but I don't believe Stefanoni falsified and forced results without consulting with somebody.

Maybe it wasn't Mignini; maybe it was the lead investigator.

But I don't believe she took these sorts of career risks without being told what she was expected to find.

 

[Nova]

This is a reminder to me that however promising things look for the convictions being overturned right now, this case, as in the Casey Anthony case, has no certain outcome until the verdict is read:

http://maundygregory.wordpress.com/

For your sake, my friend, I hope you aren't getting your hopes up too high.

I think the appellate court will produce whatever verdict will best save face for Perugia. I don't know whether that will be rejecting the DNA results and overturning the guilty verdicts of AK and RS in order to show "the system works." Or whether it will be ignoring the independent reports and convicting AK and RS anyway while arguing there is ample evidence with (ETA out) the DNA. (This latter argument makes no sense to me, since without DNA, they can't put either defendant in the murder room, but we have posters here and elsewhere who have no trouble making that argument.)

 

[Nova]

I am sure you have seen the long lists of evidence printed on the internet and in this thread as well. The media campaign that is going on all goes back to the Knox family and their hired propaganda team. People just love innocent and entertainment. It is pretty sad. The knife and bra clasp is not the only evidence but how come it is being reported like that? If you try to be objective for a moment then you see that a little criticism about the media reporting is in its place here.

For as far as I can tell now, the independent experts are not doing the defense any favors. It is just way over the top. They are practically criticizing every part of the investigation and that was not their assignment. I would have expected a far more cautious approach and not insult the whole investigation including the legal system because after all many judges have already looked at this case as well. This is going to backfire on the defense IMO. On the other hand, it is a bit premature to really say where all of this is going

I assume this isn't the only thread you read at WS, so I also assume you know how rare it is for a case to generate so many posts and posters who believe the guilty verdicts are erroneous. We can't all be shrugged off as dupes of the Knox so-called p.r. "machine." At most, the Knoxes and their allies never had a fraction of the resources that went into demonizing "Foxy Knoxy."

I'm not saying this means you have to agree she is innocent. But the volume of research that has gone into most of our opinions that AK and RS have not been proven guilty is staggering. Might be something to think about.

 

[SMK]

For your sake, my friend, I hope you aren't getting your hopes up too high.

I think the appellate court will produce whatever verdict will best save face for Perugia. I don't know whether that will be rejecting the DNA results and overturning the guilty verdicts of AK and RS in order to show "the system works." Or whether it will be ignoring the independent reports and convicting AK and RS anyway while arguing there is ample evidence with the DNA. (This latter argument makes no sense to me, since without DNA, they can't put either defendant in the murder room, but we have posters here and elsewhere who have no trouble making that argument.)

Yes, believe me, I am aware that verdicts can be the opposite of what one was expecting. It may go totally against the defense. Never halloo until you are out of the woods, as they say....

 

[SMK]

I know you like Mignini, SMK, but I don't believe Stefanoni falsified and forced results without consulting with somebody.

Maybe it wasn't Mignini; maybe it was the lead investigator.

But I don't believe she took these sorts of career risks without being told what she was expected to find.

I think you have a valid point, there, my good sir. :waitasec:

 

[trillian]

Just dropping by to say "yay!". I'm so glad all the botched forensics are coming into the court.
This case is over.
The conviction won't stand. (I have been shocked before though!)

The whole scenario was so over-the-top ridiculous though that I am still mad it has taken this long to put before the court the experts that should have been able to assess the shoddy forensics years ago.

 

[wasnt_me]

I don't know if I agree with w_m that Stefanoni just made Raffaelle appear.....

As an example, Raffaelle's 30 peaks matches 11 of Meredith's peaks. He matches 6 additional unique peaks of Casey Anthony. That's 17 out of 30 peaks matched with 2 people. Add someone else in the mix and you've probably only got 9 unique peaks left. At that point, can you really be sure that he's on the clasp? Obviously Casey Anthony wasn't on the clasp, but it seems pretty certain that someone else was. The more people on the clasp the less certain you can be. At some point you can rule people out, but not rule them in.

What is still damaging for Sollecito is that the profile resulting from that clasp cannot rule him out.

All of what you just said is basically what I'm saying that she "made him appear" with mismatched peaks and aelles.

 

[SkewedView]

I am sure you have seen the long lists of evidence printed on the internet and in this thread as well. The media campaign that is going on all goes back to the Knox family and their hired propaganda team. People just love innocent and entertainment. It is pretty sad. The knife and bra clasp is not the only evidence but how come it is being reported like that? If you try to be objective for a moment then you see that a little criticism about the media reporting is in its place here.

For as far as I can tell now, the independent experts are not doing the defense any favors. It is just way over the top. They are practically criticizing every part of the investigation and that was not their assignment. I would have expected a far more cautious approach and not insult the whole investigation including the legal system because after all many judges have already looked at this case as well. This is going to backfire on the defense IMO. On the other hand, it is a bit premature to really say where all of this is going

<modsnip>?

I'm sorry, but the media reports what it wants, how it wants, and they could give two figs what anyone thinks as long as it works for their agenda of the moment. Is the media going overboard towards the pro-innocence angle right now? Sure, just as they did the same in the opposite direction early in the case (though they seem to be more tasteful about it this time around) - but nobody is to blame for that except for the usual suspects - the media itself, which is as trustworthy as a scorpion.


Regarding the expert report: They did exactly what they were supposed to do: investigate the entire process that led to Stephanoni's findings, from start to finish, since they couldn't reproduce her results. That most every step in the process, from the crime scene to the lab, was replete with sloppy, unprofessional behavior is nobody's fault but PLE and their lab cohorts. What do you propose, that the experts ignore the egregious incompetence displayed by these supposed professionals? That they abandon the basic precepts behind peer review and just become a pair of bobble-heads? If the report seems aggressive, maybe that is a sign of just how badly PLE & company messed things up? Is that really so unbelievable after Mignini himself said in a recorded interview that he wished he had been able to work with the Military Police instead, as he found the Perugian LE to be unprofessional and lacking in detachment?



I do however wholeheartedly agree with you that this is all in the air still - and will be for a good while yet. If there is one thing that I have learned in researching the Italian courts, it's that you can never predict their rulings.

 

[wasnt_me]

This is a reminder to me that however promising things look for the convictions being overturned right now, this case, as in the Casey Anthony case, has no certain outcome until the verdict is read:

http://maundygregory.wordpress.com/

Who said the rest of the evidence is going to be "discussed by judges in private?" aren't there also "jurors" who need to hear it? I needs a cite on that before believing Maundy.

 

[SMK]

Darlin', I hope you only mean you "lost respect" at PMF. Nothing you have done has in any way lessened the mountain of respect you have earned here.

Aw, gee, such a kind gentleman! Most appreciated, Nova!:blushing::angel:

 

[wasnt_me]

Wow. I just read the comments on that Yahoo article. People are flipping mad and still feel she is guilty. They insist there is other evidence and she shouldn't get off just because the DNA issue. I guess I need to keep investigating what evidence they are talking about. From what I can see, it seems the worse thing she did was to implicate her ex-boss. She really messed that up.

Will we have another veridict like Casey Anthony that upsets the public court of opinion?

I hope we do have another casey anthony verdict, because if AK didn't do it, she didn't do it. Let them open up the other "evidence." it should all tumble down the same way, if she's truly innocent.