Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[wasnt_me]

You make it sound as if they should have collected half the kitchen. It doesn't work like that. They collected the suspicious kitchen knife. Nothing wrong with that. They also collected RS's personal knife which could have well caused the other wounds, and seems to match the bed print. Unfortunately no DNA on that one. So if anybody really thinks they planted evidence to frame these kids then why no DNA on that knife?

Again the real question is will this test result be accepted by the appeal court. And isn't it funny that for years I read posts that this knife doesn't mean a thing since AK's DNA on the handle doesn't connect her to the murder, but now it is suddenly the one and only piece of evidence...lol...

Wow, that statement bolded above is even MORE suject-centric than Stephanoni!

 

[emyr]

You know, a lot of this was brought up in the Massai report, butit was dismissed because they gave little credence to defense experts (who one would assume are biased to the defense.)

In this appeal trial, the judge appointed experts he knew personally who were only answerable to him. And they not only said everything the defense experts said, they provided an actual presentation to show why they are correct, point by point.

The information that I had not seen before was the individuals walking around the scene in their street clothes, the hair present on the gloves, as the exact statements of Stephanoni against what happened. Proving her version of events wrong.

She did lie. And there is proof in full color with audio.

So the conversation has changed from: Are you going to believe those accused murderers or are you going to believe the experts and the Italian Justice system to:

Are you going to believe in the professionalism and credibility of the current Judge and experts or are you going to believe in the professionalism and credibility of the old Judge and experts?

Stephanoni is in the problematic situation Amanda and Raffaelle were in. In order to prove her version of events correct, she has to portray that these experts are either dishonest, corrupt, incompetent, or clueless. And she has to do this against the backdrop of her own words being refuted with video evidence.

 

[Monzoo]

"You gotta FIGHT...FOR YOUR RIGHT.....To party!!!!!"
(I have no idea who sings it. Queen? Def leopard? I don't know).

I am going to delurk to let you know that it is by Beastie Boys -- I have an unusual amount of 80s music trivia knowledge stored in my brain.

I'll probably contribute more after the Saturday hearing -- until then, is there really any more to say?

 

[wasnt_me]

Meredith's DNA makes it conclusive that the knife was used to murder her. This could have been RS, AK or RG since their presence in the cottage has been proven by other evidence. It is then the blood trail from the bedroom to the bathroom with the mixed DNA traces, the dynamics of the murder and common sense (why would RS use the kitchen knife if he has his own knife, and RG was using his hands for something else) that connects AK to the murder weapon. The knife is important evidence but does not stand by itself. So what will actually change if you take away the knife as evidence? I guess we will have to wait a few more months to know the answer

People who believe in guilt or who don't have always been perplexed because there IS no blood trail from the bedroom to the bathroom. We've all been guessing theories as to the trail. Now there is one? What is the trail?

What is the connection between RG and RS's knife?

How is RS's kitchen knife important evidence? Because AK's dna is on the handle? I'll bet it was on the handle of knives in the cottage, too, but we'll never know that cause they were taken into evidence and tested.

What exactly IS the other evidence linking AK and RS to this crime?

 

[wasnt_me]

I am going to delurk to let you know that it is by Beastie Boys -- I have an unusual amount of 80s music trivia knowledge stored in my brain.

I'll probably contribute more after the Saturday hearing -- until then, is there really any more to say?

OMG that's right. How in the WORLD did I forget that!!!!!

:yourock::welcome3::wagon:

 

[wasnt_me]

You know, a lot of this was brought up in the Massai report, butit was dismissed because they gave little credence to defense experts (who one would assume are biased to the defense.)

In this appeal trial, the judge appointed experts he knew personally who were only answerable to him. And they not only said everything the defense experts said, they provided an actual presentation to show why they are correct, point by point.

The information that I had not seen before was the individuals walking around the scene in their street clothes, the hair present on the gloves, as the exact statements of Stephanoni against what happened. Proving her version of events wrong.

She did lie. And there is proof in full color with audio.

So the conversation has changed from: Are you going to believe those accused murderers or are you going to believe the experts and the Italian Justice system to:

Are you going to believe in the professionalism and credibility of the current Judge and experts or are you going to believe in the professionalism and credibility of the old Judge and experts?

Stephanoni is in the problematic situation Amanda and Raffaelle were in. In order to prove her version of events correct, she has to portray that these experts are either dishonest, corrupt, incompetent, or clueless. And she has to do this against the backdrop of her own words being refuted with video evidence.

Awesome post, and awesomely correct. Very well put, and it certainly depicts the situation down to a "science."

"Stefanoni and (Co-Prosecutor Manuela) Comodi at the beginning were giggling, trying to laugh it off. Then about two hours into it they weren't laughing any more. Comodi started asking the forensics experts questions, and tried to start an argument. These experts are the court's experts, so they are arguing with the court. The judge slammed his hand down on the table and yelled, 'You will not speak, you will be quiet. And then she was.

http://www.westseattleherald.com/2011/07/24/news/update-2-courtroom-was-chuckling-court-appointed-

Giggling...we'll see who's giggling....

 

[wasnt_me]

As the entire YouTube video from the above stills illustrates, the bra clasp was swiped with Q-tips and placed in a clear plastic bag. DNA evidence is supposed to be placed in paper bags, not plastic, and it should not be wiped, the experts said. And they did not change gloves after handling other items.

This gets better and better. I didn't see any q-tip swiping. Oh, my goodness.

http://www.westseattleherald.com/2011/07/24/news/update-2-courtroom-was-chuckling-court-appointed-

 

[trillian]

As far as I can tell, there is no evidence that AK or RS ever touched even a single drop of MK's blood.

I am still hearing about all this blood evidence connecting them,(blood on the knife, bloody footprints, etc..). It is complete fiction.

DNA? Sure. Expected when you live together and share a bathroom. But blood?...nada.

 

[wasnt_me]

I was looking at the youtube video again of finding the clasp, and what I find unsettling about it is that there was such a big production of it. Handing it around, touching it, viewing it under every kind of light. I just don't understand why all that was done at a point where they supposedly did not know that the clasp was significant.

Why the big production? Why not just pick it up and bag it?

Amanda Knox - "Unassailable Evidence" - Bra Clasp discovery crime scene video - YouTube

 

[SMK]

These youngsters have a right to be optimistic. After what RG did on the stand, after all these lies, lies, lies and accusations, after all this defamation they've been through, after being unable to mourn their own dead friend properly, after losing their freedom for 4 years, they have a right to feel good about the first bit of good news they've heard since 2007. Let them smile and be happy. The defense and supporters should NOT be cautious. They should continue to push in this very vain to shame the court into doing what's right. The court should know what the public thinks. The prosecution used public opinion. The defense should as well. They must fight. Their llives are at risk. They shouldn't care about alienating anyone because their lives are at stake. Slavery didn't end with caution, America wasn't founded upon American's fearing to alienate the crown, Hitler was stopped because people stood up and said NO. I can go on and on, but basically, I got a song for it. You knew I would.

"You gotta FIGHT...FOR YOUR RIGHT.....To party!!!!!"
(I have no idea who sings it. Queen? Def leopard? I don't know).

Well said. :yourock:

 

[Nova]

Well, if the justice system is predicated on "innocent until proven guilty" I agree with you.

For me, the problem is the knife seems impossible to explain as a murder weapon. If it is impossible to explain because the scenarios are so implausible then that means the knife got contaminated somewhere along the line. Since the amount of the DNA was low it's unlikely to be planted or they would have done a better job of it.

But, if there are three DNA profiles on the bra clasp, and if Sollecito's ratio of DNA to Meredith's DNA is 8 to 1, then it is STILL highly implausible that it's not Raffaelle's DNA on there. There's not copious amounts of RS's DNA there, but there's not super-tiny amounts either. I read over the Massai parts where he went through exactly the scenarios RS's DNA could have been deposited at the scene and it would always be a highly unlucky confluence of events to cause the contamination.

On the other hand, I believe the lab must have contaminated the knife because there's no way it could be the murder weapon. However, if RS's DNA is the result of lab contamination, it is three times the amount of the contamination of the knife and it also just so happens to be RS, the person who probably had the least amount of DNA in the machines and the lab.

So it's still a troubling piece of evidence. However, since we are supposed to lean in favor of innocent until proven guilty, then we must dismiss it. But there is a difference, as others have said, in "not proven guilty" as opposed to "clearly innocent" in people's minds.

...
But. But! I am not giving weight to the fact that Mignini was found guilty of prosecutorial misconduct. I am not giving weight to the fact that the Massai report said nothing had been removed or brought into the room (it had). I am not giving weight to the fact that Massai said gloves were changed (they hadn't been). I'm not giving weight to thef act that Massai said there had been zero evidence of contamination in the lab (I believe there has to have been). And I'm not giving weight to the fact that Stefanoni was actively looking at the evidence for proof that Sollecito was guilty (as evidenced by her excluding anything that might undermine her evidence and not turning over that information to the defense in accordance with the law).

Beautifully summarized. Thanks.

 

[arielilane]

These youngsters have a right to be optimistic. After what RG did on the stand, after all these lies, lies, lies and accusations, after all this defamation they've been through, after being unable to mourn their own dead friend properly, after losing their freedom for 4 years, they have a right to feel good about the first bit of good news they've heard since 2007. Let them smile and be happy. The defense and supporters should NOT be cautious. They should continue to push in this very vain to shame the court into doing what's right. The court should know what the public thinks. The prosecution used public opinion. The defense should as well. They must fight. Their llives are at risk. They shouldn't care about alienating anyone because their lives are at stake. Slavery didn't end with caution, America wasn't founded upon American's fearing to alienate the crown, Hitler was stopped because people stood up and said NO. I can go on and on, but basically, I got a song for it. You knew I would.

"You gotta FIGHT...FOR YOUR RIGHT.....To party!!!!!"
(I have no idea who sings it. Queen? Def leopard? I don't know).

Great post!!! Thank you.

 

[milliac]

LOL. That's funny. Just imagine he'd planned to "half way break it" but wound up knocking it open! LOL I think he probably knocked against it and then he either saw AK trying to go out on the balcony or decided that he didn't want to be responsible for breaking down the door if on the other side was more of what they saw in the house.

As for him knowing stuff was stolen or not, that's kind of crazy to use against him. AK had ALREADY told RF on the phone that nothing appeared to be stolen. So why would RS disbelieve her? RF was the one who didnt believe it and asked AK to go back to the house and doublecheck. RF saw no reason to rush back to the house herself, as she sent her BF while she was at a fair or something like that? She arrived an hour later? So if she saw no need to rush back while MK was MIA, then why all the pressure on AK and RS to break down the door or be frantic to find MK? From what I understand, RF was not calling MK off the chain. Let me know if I'm wrong.

Not pinpointing RF, just using her as a reference. We assume her innocence and her behavior does mirror AK and RS's behavior.

1. when she first heard about it, she was in no rush to call police or get home.
2. She wondered where MK was, as did AK. She wondered if things were stolen and according to testimony, AK already had the answer, which was no. She had that answer because she walked around the house and she saw a laptop in her own room, she saw the TV in the kitchen. She had no need to go into RF's room or LM's room on her first trip to the house. Once they went in RF's room, they saw the busted window. How are they to know things were missing fromm RF's room?
3. Busted window prompted them to make more calls and get to the police. Busted window also apparently made RF decide to bring herself home. That's when the situation suddenly escalated. Of course in her own room RF can see that nothing was stolen once she got there. It was only for her to determine. For example, say her laptop wasn't there. What if AK had said it was stolen, but RF returned with it in a bag under her arm?
4. RS attempted to break the door down. When RF arrived, after checking out her own room and her own stuff, she decided the door needed to be broken down, too.

So I don't see how AK and RS acted any differently than RF. Their only misfortune was discovering the scene first. I think had RF discovered it first, she probably would have called all her friends over there, called around for the roommates, and busted the door down. She would have had more urgency because she would have seen her room busted it all up. AK didn't see that first trip, which was why she didn't have the urgency at first.

I wonder what would have happened if LM had arrived home first. She just would have seen crap in her toilet, been grossed out, and gone about her day. Who knows how she would have interpreted the front door being open, since it was a trick door. Even the police didn't keep that door closed. After they'd sealed it up, there's a picture of it wide open with no cops there. A blogger took it and I posted it in the last thread or early in this thread. So if the police couldn't lock it properly, it's logical for the roommates to assume someone else hadn't locked it properly or someone else might be home but outside or downstairs (if they did not know the boys were on vacation, as AK claimed she didn't.)

So these assertions against the couple become absurd, really. IMO of course.

Wow. I am curious. Was there ever any testimony from the ex-roomies or landlord about the faulty front door?

 

[Nova]

Wow. I am curious. Was there ever any testimony from the ex-roomies or landlord about the faulty front door?

I don't know, but the faulty front door was so central to AK's story of the morning the body was discovered, I can't believe ILE didn't confirm the story with the roommates or landlord. ILE had too much to gain from proving that story wrong not to try.

 

[SMK]

Perugia Shock : Frank Sfarzo, July 26, 2011: tells of how police sent from Perugia went looking for the experts of the independent panel:

CONTI AND VECCHIOTTI: THE POLICE AT THE DOOR - PERUGIA COPS BREAK INTO HOSPITAL GEMELLI AND LA SAPIENZA UNIVERSITY

Today cops entered at the same time the hospital Gemelli and La Sapienza University, both in Rome, looking for Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti.

According to University sources who witnessed part of the event the cops were sent by the Procura of Perugia, and ordered Conti and Vecchiotti to hand over the DVD containing the presentation with which yesterday the two scientists had explained their report in court.

It seems that watching this DVD was so urgent, so important that the prosecutors had to send two patrols to Rome! (I remind you that in Italy the state complains that there isn’t money to pay gas for normal patrolling).
What happened? All of a sudden the prosecutors got victim of a science fever? They lost their sleep because they have some doubts about how the polymerase chain reaction works, or how the DNA microsatellites allow identification?

By how they reacted yesterday in court, actually, it seems that they are almost kind of mad at the two scientists. Probably you’ve heard that President Hellmann had to slam his hand on the bench to stop Comodi and Maresca, who were interrupting Stefano Conti.

http://perugiashock.com/2011/07/26/conti-and-vecchiotti-the-police-at-the-door/

ALSO noteworthy:

Today, (as dozens and dozens of DNA experts, retired FBI field agents, profilers, murder investigators, and lab staff; journalists, politicians, scientists and prosecutors have been screaming since the kangaroo trial in Perugia); the court-appointed experts convincingly and decisively deconstructed the prosecution case. (As a backhanded slap at the forensic “scientists” and the earlier court, they used real science.)

As a friend of mine recently commented, “Amanda is apparently guilty of nothing more than “stabbing” a loaf of rye bread.” Yes, the “blood” found by Patrizia Stefanoni, forensic “scientist,” was nothing more than rye bread starch. This, on a “Murder Weapon” that the coroner said could not have killed the victim. The DNA of Raffaele on the bra clasp? That of a woman. It would behoove the people of Perugia to have a forensic scientist who can tell the difference between the DNA of a woman and a man, and the difference between starch and blood. People go to jail over these kind of mistakes. Sadly, the wrong people usually do.

http://gmancasefile.blogspot.com/2011/07/does-daily-beast-look-little-yellower.html?spref=bl

 

[sherlockh]

Except that it isnt at all conclusive that the DNA on the knife is Merediths. Even looking at the original report, it is still not conclusive. Per the experts.

Do you question their conclusions?

Of course I question their conclusions. They are much too one-sided, a bit over the top IMO. I have been critical of the prosecution, defense and now I criticize he independent experts as well. Is that not allowed?

 

[wasnt_me]

Wow. I am curious. Was there ever any testimony from the ex-roomies or landlord about the faulty front door?

I remember reading somewhere that the landlord had either testified or was suing somebody, but now I honestly can't remember. Hopefully other can be more helpful with this question. If I find the picture with the door hanging open again, I'll repost.

ETA: I remember now. The landlord was suing for lost rent?? I'd have to find the corroberation of that, but I thought I read another poster say it here or on another board.

 

[wasnt_me]

I'm personally and officially appalled by the prosecution's appeal behavior after reading Frank's blog.

I wonder what kind of pressure Hellman's office is under. It makes me wonder if Hellman will be pressured to hurry up and end this farce or if he'll be so indignant about the prosecution's childishness that he'll let the PLE be further embarrassed by dissecting even more of their evidence.

Might need to set up a vending machine to sell popcorn for Saturday.

 

[SMK]

I'm personally and officially appalled by the prosecution's appeal behavior after reading Frank's blog.

I wonder what kind of pressure Hellman's office is under. It makes me wonder if Hellman will be pressured to hurry up and end this farce or if he'll be so indignant about the prosecution's childishness that he'll let the PLE be further embarrassed by dissecting even more of their evidence.

Might need to set up a vending machine to sell popcorn for Saturday.

I know, it is getting to be like some kooky soap opera. :floorlaugh:

 

[wasnt_me]

It's crazy and the last people you ought go rolling up on without a search warrant are the VERY ONES who are sticklers for procedure. That move just goes to prove that the prosecution doesn't give a damn about procedure or doing things properly, as long as they get their desired outcome. The oldheads are about to learn a thing or two about the new laws. This will hopefully be a time in Italy where the new judical rules they put in place start to get followed by those who've been in office for decades.