Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[Nova]

Not reliable to you. We will see what the judges say. Same for the shop owner. RG is the new guy. He wasn't part of the first trial.

Rafaelle is the murderer so luminol hits at his house don't seem so strange to me. I guess they got lucky that MK's DNA wasn't found there. Oh wait, it was found.

It might be an interesting defense tactic to show that in regular households you can also find full bare luminol footprints, but for some reason the defense didn't do that. I wonder why?

This is insanity.

MK's DNA was NOT found at RS' house. That is now clear.

The luminol hits at RS' apartment were not the blood of MK, RS or AK. If they were, we would all have heard about it by now. They most likely weren't blood at all. Why is it so hard to understand that luminol reacts to lots of things (including bleach), not just blood?

The properties and limitations of luminol are well known. There was no reason for the defense to "prove them."

 

[sherlockh]

This is insanity.

MK's DNA was NOT found at RS' house. That is now clear.

The luminol hits at RS' apartment were not the blood of MK, RS or AK. If they were, we would all have heard about it by now. They most likely weren't blood at all. Why is it so hard to understand that luminol reacts to lots of things (including bleach), not just blood?

The properties and limitations of luminol are well known. There was no reason for the defense to "prove them."

This is so stupid.

You find luminol spots at a murderers house so full bare luminol footprints at a very bloody crime scene are not important? Yeah right.

It would have surely helped if the defense had proved them. They also could have easily figured out who that guy was that walked barefoot in the girls house if it wasn't RS. They didn't do these things for a very obvious reason.

 

[SMK]

Isn't that the point of this particular circumstantial evidence ... that the murder had absolutely no impact on Knox? That she did not appear sad or in mourning like the other friends that Meredith had made in the time she lived in Perugia?

She cried when she first learned of it. She said it saddened her. As for the lack of "mourning": I don't think it is really any circumstantial evidence, though, because MK had distanced herself from AK, so it may have been something Knox felt uncomfortable with.

 

[SMK]

what is a D&D nerd?

Dungeons and Dragons nerd. I still think Raffaele is very cute.

 

[SMK]

Amanda Knox testimony ends with “DNA torpedo” July 30

A torpedo ripping through the courtroom. That’s how Corriere Dell’Umbria, the local newspaper in Perugia, Italy, describes the demolition of the DNA evidence against Amanda Knox and co-defendant Raffaele Sollecito in their ongoing appeals trial. Called “the king’s evidence,” the DNA was central to their murder conviction in 2009 for the murder of Amanda’s flatmate Meredith Kercher.

Not only is the Italian press predicting the former lovers could go free, but Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellmann has put the trial on a fast train. This Saturday marks the last day of testimony. Hellman is expected to announce that trial will then go into recess and resume Aug. 27, with a verdict expected around Sept. 15.

Judge Hellmann’s independent experts, not the prosecution, will get the last word on Saturday–undiluted by any other witnesses. Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti of La Sapienza University will be cross-examined about their 145-page report, which calls the DNA traces used against the students “unreliable.” . . .

Police forensic expert Patrizia Stefanoni had vowed to strongly defend her testing results in court, but Judge Hellmann has forbidden her to take the stand. She is threatening to sue his experts for “false statements” she claims to have found in their report.

This week Perugia police seized a DVD that the experts used to expose the murder investigation as a Keystone Cops operation. Below, see the evidence-gathering techniques that created laughter in the courtroom on July 25, when the experts displayed them for judges and jurors.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2011/07/29/amanda-knox-appeal-testimony-ends-july-30-with-dna-torpedo/

 

[SMK]

Has anyone else read anything that Staphanoni will not take the stand on Saturday and that the August 1st date has been cancelled?

Yes. See article I posted. Sat. is last day, and Stef will not take the stand.

 

[SMK]

Three new pieces out this morning, from CBS , MSNBC, and The Daily Beast:

Amanda Knox prosecutors pursue life sentence despite setbacks

(CBS) - There is a desperate, and often ill-advised, gambling strategy called doubling-down. More and more, it seems to have become the strategy of choice by Italian prosecutors in their case against American student Amanda Knox. If you are losing big, raise the stakes!


. . .

This week, an Italian court heard from two court-appointed DNA scientists in the Knox-Sollecito appeal. The experts testified that DNA evidence - key evidence critical to the prosecution's case - was not reliable.

The ancient Roman poet Lucretius had words of wisdom for just such a situation. Two thousand years ago, Lucretius wrote, "Nothing can be created from nothing." The Perugia prosecutors have not heeded the ancient poet's advice. Though now left with virtually no evidentiary floor to stand on, the prosecution continues to press forward.

The appellate trial - appeals can be mini-trials in Italy - of Knox and Sollecito began in 2010. Easily forgotten over that time is the end game. Knox was sentenced to 26 years, Sollecito to 25. Both say they were wrongfully convicted and seek acquittal and their freedom.

But the prosecution wants still harsher punishment; they've doubled-down.

They are asking the Italian appellate court to sentence both Knox and Sollecito to life sentences in prison. Since Italy does not have the death penalty, a life sentence is the country's harshest punishment. The punishment calculus in Perugia looks to be completely out of whack!

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20085386-504083.html

The Amanda Knox Mystery
Just as new evidence might free Amanda Knox, a new book, The Fatal Gift of Beauty by Nina Burleigh, asks why the infamous student murder case has captivated the world—and suggests an alternative murder scenario. Chloë Schama on the case’s dark allure.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/07/28/amanda-knox-a-new-book-offers-new-clues-in-the-gruesome-murder.html

People often ask if I think Knox is guilty of the murder she was convicted of committing. After three years of reporting on the crime, Knox’s trial and her punishment for the TODAY show, the answer is always the same: "I don't know if she is guilty, but I do know that the prosecution didn't prove it in court."

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/07/29/7195714-amanda-knox-victim-of-a-crazy-court-system

 

[OldSteve]

:goodpost: Lots of good stuff SMK! Case seems to be imploding as prosecution tries some sort of I-don't-what scheme! Are they trying to scare AK/RS into accepting some sort of plead deal, is something like that possible in their system of law?

The quote, "I don't know if she is guilty, but I do know that the prosecution didn't prove it in court." is one I agree with.

 

[Sonata]

The quote, "I don't know if she is guilty, but I do know that the prosecution didn't prove it in court." is one I agree with.

100% in agreement

 

[SMK]

:goodpost: Lots of good stuff SMK! Case seems to be imploding as prosecution tries some sort of I-don't-what scheme! Are they trying to scare AK/RS into accepting some sort of plead deal, is something like that possible in their system of law?

The quote, "I don't know if she is guilty, but I do know that the prosecution didn't prove it in court." is one I agree with.

Thanks!!!
That is a good question. I rather think they are angry, and wanting to put life sentences in to show they are not backing down - although, I believe Mignini had wanted life sentences since the appeal began.

 

[otto]

She cried when she first learned of it. She said it saddened her. As for the lack of "mourning": I don't think it is really any circumstantial evidence, though, because MK had distanced herself from AK, so it may have been something Knox felt uncomfortable with.

I suppose Knox was crying in between sticking her tongue out at Sollecito at the police station, and telling Meredith's friends that she "f-ing bled to death" ... or were her tears running in every direction as she flipped cartwheels in the lobby at the police station?

The fact that Knox did not appear upset about the brutal murder, did not attend the memorial and had sexy lingerie on her mind as soon as the police were finished with their initial round of questions speaks to state of mind. This is circumstantial evidence in a murder investigation.

Knox and Sollecito were responsible for the fact that they had to return to the police station to answer more questions. If they had told the truth in the first place, they would have been free to carry on as they pleased. Well ... not exactly ... if they had told the truth in the first place they many never have left the police station after the first interview.

 

[SMK]

I suppose Knox was crying in between sticking her tongue out at Sollecito at the police station, and telling Meredith's friends that she "f-ing bled to death" ... or were her tears running in every direction as she flipped cartwheels in the lobby at the police station?

The fact that Knox did not appear upset about the brutal murder, did not attend the memorial and had sexy lingerie on her mind as soon as the police were finished with their initial round of questions speaks to state of mind. This is circumstantial evidence in a murder investigation.

Knox and Sollecito were responsible for the fact that they had to return to the police station to answer more questions. If they had told the truth in the first place, they would have been free to carry on as they pleased. Well ... not exactly ... if they had told the truth in the first place they many never have left the police station after the first interview.

OK, Otto....:waitasec: How strong is evidence when it is merely a seemingly uncaring state of mind? To me, it proves nothing. If they had told the truth in the first place: How many times have we been over this? What if I had a magic camera, which could go back in time and film, and you saw that Guede alone had been there and killed MK?

 

[SkewedView]

I suppose Knox was crying in between sticking her tongue out at Sollecito at the police station, and telling Meredith's friends that she "f-ing bled to death" ... or were her tears running in every direction as she flipped cartwheels in the lobby at the police station?

The fact that Knox did not appear upset about the brutal murder, did not attend the memorial and had sexy lingerie on her mind as soon as the police were finished with their initial round of questions speaks to state of mind. This is circumstantial evidence in a murder investigation.

Knox and Sollecito were responsible for the fact that they had to return to the police station to answer more questions. If they had told the truth in the first place, they would have been free to carry on as they pleased. Well ... not exactly ... if they had told the truth in the first place they many never have left the police station after the first interview.

I refer you again to the ill-conceived demonization of Somer Thompson's mother - they did all sorts of analysis of how she was grieving, crying, laughing, what she purchased and on and on...and guess what? She was innocent. That's right, all of these internet psychoanalysts and Nancy Grace guests tortured an innocent woman who just lost her little girl, to no purpose other than...what? To get attention? I don't know, but either way it was cruel and pointless, because humans don't come out of a factory. We each react to things differently!

Seriously, you can analyze anyone's behavior and come up with things that are 'suspicious'. Doesn't mean a darned thing. Let's try: Oh, okay, FR lawyered up immediately! OMG! She tampered with a crime scene! OMG! She couldn't make up her mind about the window/shutters - multiple stories must make her a liar OMG! Her alibi is her boyfriend - can he be sure she didn't leave while he was sleeping? OMG! The 'staged crime scene' that she tampered with was her own room! OMG! Bet she bought undies too, that weren't unattractive! OMG!

See how easy it is - and please don't say that I'm accusing FR of anything, because I'm not. This is just an example - and I'm sure that if I was looking for odd personal habits of hers first hand, I'd get the equivalent of the stretching in the police station etc.

And yes - AK & RS are at fault for having to come back for more questioning - because they didn't lawyer up, and PLE took advantage of that.

 

[otto]

OK, Otto....:waitasec: How strong is evidence when it is merely a seemingly uncaring state of mind? To me, it proves nothing. If they had told the truth in the first place: How many times have we been over this? What if I had a magic camera, which could go back in time and film, and you saw that Guede alone had been there and killed MK?

Two people that were completely ambivalent about the brutal murder of a roommate means little on its own. We have the likes of Scott Peterson and Casey Anthony to prove that murderers grieve differently.

How many times have we been over this indeed. The pair lied about their activities on the evening of the murder and the following morning. That resulted in investigators asking that they return to answer more questions.

 

[SkewedView]

Two people that were completely ambivalent about the brutal murder of a roommate means little on its own. We have the likes of Scott Peterson and Casey Anthony to prove that murderers grieve differently.

How many times have we been over this indeed. The pair lied about their activities on the evening of the murder and the following morning. That resulted in investigators asking that they return to answer more questions.

No, they gave answers that were disjointed/confused, which is normal in an extended interview. That's why you are supposed to speak through a lawyer, because if you don't, sooner rather than later one of their 'gotcha!' tricks will make you contradict yourself etc. See again the videos that I posted earlier in the thread, where you can hear it straight from a LEO that has decades of experience with such interviews.

 

[otto]

I refer you again to the ill-conceived demonization of Somer Thompson's mother - they did all sorts of analysis of how she was grieving, crying, laughing, what she purchased and on and on...and guess what? She was innocent. That's right, all of these internet psychoanalysts and Nancy Grace guests tortured an innocent woman who just lost her little girl, to no purpose other than...what? To get attention? I don't know, but either way it was cruel and pointless, because humans don't come out of a factory. We each react to things differently!

Seriously, you can analyze anyone's behavior and come up with things that are 'suspicious'. Doesn't mean a darned thing. Let's try: Oh, okay, FR lawyered up immediately! OMG! She tampered with a crime scene! OMG! She couldn't make up her mind about the window/shutters - multiple stories must make her a liar OMG! Her alibi is her boyfriend - can he be sure she didn't leave while he was sleeping? OMG! The 'staged crime scene' that she tampered with was her own room! OMG! Bet she bought undies too, that weren't unattractive! OMG!

See how easy it is - and please don't say that I'm accusing FR of anything, because I'm not. This is just an example - and I'm sure that if I was looking for odd personal habits of hers first hand, I'd get the equivalent of the stretching in the police station etc.

And yes - AK & RS are at fault for having to come back for more questioning - because they didn't lawyer up, and PLE took advantage of that.

If Filomina's DNA had been mixed with Meredith's blood in her bedroom, perhaps we would be looking at Filomina ... but it was Knox DNA mixed with Meredith's blood in Filomina's bedroom. It was someone that lived at the cottage that staged the break in. Filomina had one solid unwaivering alibi, but the pair lied about their activities, and those lies were revealed when police looked for independent corboration.

Knox and Sollecito should have told the truth about being awake a 6 AM instead of pretending they slept until 10. They should have told the truth about eating dinner prior to Knox's work schedule, but instead they claimed dinner was as late as 10 or 11 PM. Those lies are why they had to return to answer more questions.

 

[SMK]

Two people that were completely ambivalent about the brutal murder of a roommate means little on its own. We have the likes of Scott Peterson and Casey Anthony to prove that murderers grieve differently.

How many times have we been over this indeed. The pair lied about their activities on the evening of the murder and the following morning. That resulted in investigators asking that they return to answer more questions.

 

[otto]

No, they gave answers that were disjointed/confused, which is normal in an extended interview. That's why you are supposed to speak through a lawyer, because if you don't, sooner rather than later one of their 'gotcha!' tricks will make you contradict yourself etc. See again the videos that I posted earlier in the thread, where you can hear it straight from a LEO that has decades of experience with such interviews.

So the pair was simpy confused when they couldn't exactly figure out what they did on the night of the murder and the following morning? Would that be the drug haze that they claimed they were in throughout the night? Was that when they were so stoned on hashish that their memories were wiped clean?

It's a real gotcha by the police when they prove a witness lied during a murder investigation, particularly when the lies are about alibis ... sure is.

 

[Nova]

...You find luminol spots at a murderers house so full bare luminol footprints at a very bloody crime scene are not important? Yeah right.

It would have surely helped if the defense had proved them. They also could have easily figured out who that guy was that walked barefoot in the girls house if it wasn't RS. They didn't do these things for a very obvious reason.

BBM: you are assuming the desired conclusion is fact at the beginning of your syllogism. That might make it difficult to reach a fair and logical conclusion.

The luminol spots at RS' apartment prove nothing about the luminol hits at the cottage. I merely asserted that ILE would have done anything to connect RS to the crime. If there were any way to assign the luminol hits at RS' apartment to blood from RS, AK or MK, it would have been leaked to the tabloids long ago.

As for the footprints that luminesced in the cottage, I thought they were attributed to AK. Were there luminol prints consistent with RS' feet as well?

And did any of these prints test positive for blood? I don't believe so. AK (or even RS) leaving footprints at AK's home doesn't really prove anything.

Has all the testimony been translated into English? If not, then I don't know whether there was testimony about luminol and the many substances to which it reacts. But these are well-known facts and not really something the defense has to "prove." Frankly, the burden would be on the prosecution to prove that luminol "hits" were in fact a particular person's blood.

 

[otto]

Yep ... luminol means nothing in the murder investigation of Meredith Kercher ... but oddly, it is widely accepted in courtrooms around the world. Weird huh.