Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[SkewedView]

I must have misunderstood ... I thought you suggested she lied about the shutters and tampered with a crime scene.

I was just demonstrating how easy it is to twist normal, innocent behavior/statements/circumstances into something nefarious. Thus the tongue in cheek OMGs. Look at it again from the perspective of what if all of those things had been blared out to the world in that form by the media & LE, and see how someone we all agree is an innocent party can be made to look pretty darned hinky, just by playing around with how things are worded (and using only 'facts', interpreted in the worst light)

As to those specific items, I think she couldn't be sure about the shutters (she offered three different accounts), because who pays attention to such things, and that she messed about in her room in innocence, not knowing that her home was about to be the site of a murder investigation. If she had drawn the wrong attention, however, those things could easily have been (wrongly) interpreted in the manner that my demo used.

That is why I have avoided the temptation to speculate on 'hinky behavior' as much as possible since I witnessed the debacle with Somer Thompson's mom (can't remember her name at the moment, to my shame). Truly horrifying what that woman was put through. Thus why I've reached the point of shrugging when it comes to Mignini's more, shall we say, over the top characteristics - they say nothing to me other than that he must be an interesting guy to talk to.

 

[Nova]

State of mind during a murder is not "tabloid rubbish".

Knox and Sollecito readily offered lies during their first round of questioning. This is where they told the first round of lies about the time they had dinner, the time they woke up and their activities on the night of the murder.

Oh, good! They finally found the transcripts of the interrogations and you have translated them into English!

Now, if we can just have that link...

***

"State of mind" may (note: "may") be relevant, but the anecdotes employed to show the state of mind of AK and RS (though as Skewed View points out, it's really always AK) are rubbish.

 

[Nova]

According to someone well informed of the case ... The footprints did not test negative for blood. No confirmatory blood test was performed. Only presumptive tests were performed. Presumptive tests on their own cannot be used to either confirm or exclude the presence of blood. The footprints were accepted as being in blood by the court by the combination of a positive presumptive blood test (luminol) and the contextual evidence at the crime scene which served to overrule the negative presumptive blood test (TMB). The court concluded, rightly, that it was unreasonable to conclude that the footprints were in anything other than blood, the victim's blood.

So court just made up stuff. That's what I thought.

 

[otto]

I was just demonstrating how easy it is to twist normal, innocent behavior/statements/circumstances into something nefarious. Thus the tongue in cheek OMGs. Look at it again from the perspective of what if all of those things had been blared out to the world in that form by the media & LE, and see how someone we all agree is an innocent party can be made to look pretty darned hinky, just by playing around with how things are worded (and using only 'facts', interpreted in the worst light)

As to those specific items, I think she couldn't be sure about the shutters (she offered three different accounts), because who pays attention to such things, and that she messed about in her room in innocence, not knowing that her home was about to be the site of a murder investigation. If she had drawn the wrong attention, however, those things could easily have been (wrongly) interpreted in the manner that my demo used.

That is why I have avoided the temptation to speculate on 'hinky behavior' as much as possible since I witnessed the debacle with Somer Thompson's mom (can't remember her name at the moment, to my shame). Truly horrifying what that woman was put through. Thus why I've reached the point of shrugging when it comes to Mignini's more, shall we say, over the top characteristics - they say nothing to me other than that he must be an interesting guy to talk to.

Two sets of shutters and one set of windows ... so different explanations for each - but some people assumed that she must be lying when she has two descriptions for the two sets of shutters. That makes me think there's a desperate attempt to give the impression that a witness lied ... whereas it's nothing more than a misunderstanding by people without the facts.

Knox and Sollecito have lied ... no misunderstanding, no confusion ... just blatant lies that some would like to dismiss by suggesting that these two adults they were confused. No amount of hashish makes anyone as confused as Knox is regarding significant questions.

 

[Nova]

I must have misunderstood ... I thought you suggested she lied about the shutters and tampered with a crime scene.

Actually, you are the one who insists that every misstatement is a deliberate lie. So I assume you think FR is a liar.

And she did tamper with a crime scene, but it's my understanding she was sent to do so by the Keystone Kops.

 

[Nova]

Two sets of shutters and one set of windows ... so different explanations for each - but some people assumed that she must be lying when she has two descriptions for the two sets of shutters. That makes me think there's a desperate attempt to give the impression that a witness lied ... whereas it's nothing more than a misunderstanding by people without the facts.

Knox and Sollecito have lied ... no misunderstanding, no confusion ... just blatant lies that some would like to dismiss by suggesting that these two adults they were confused. No amount of hashish makes anyone as confused as Knox is regarding significant questions.

I know some posters here have wondered about FR, but I don't think anyone has called her a liar. I think we all accept that she, like most people, had imperfect recall of what at the time were trivial actions.

Unfortunately, some people never give the same allowance to AK or RS.

 

[emyr]

I think, as it currently stands, you could potentially see Amanda stay in jail for murder and Sollecito go free. If the clasp and knife are thrown out, there is nothing besides the fact that he provided an alibi to Amanda, and he was incorrect about waking up at 6 am that morning, to indicate he would have anything to do with the crime. Otto, sherlockh, would you agree with that? If you had to delete the knife and clasp from your memory would there be enough evidence for you to find him guilty in a legal sense? Did I miss something that convicts him?

ETA: Of course, the number one issue would be his testimony that changed on the 6th from: Amanda was with me all night to: Amanda convinced me that this story was true, if you say Amanda left then she must have left.

 

[otto]

Oh, good! They finally found the transcripts of the interrogations and you have translated them into English!

Now, if we can just have that link...

***

"State of mind" may (note: "may") be relevant, but the anecdotes employed to show the state of mind of AK and RS (though as Skewed View points out, it's really always AK) are rubbish.

The Judge's Summary documents the lies regarding time of dinner.

I think you already have the link bug let me know if you need it again.

Sollecito is the one that admitted telling police a "load of rubbish".

Knox and Sollecito are two admitted liars, having admitted lying to police throughout a murder investigation. No wonder they were found guilty!

 

[otto]

I think, as it currently stands, you could potentially see Amanda stay in jail for murder and Sollecito go free. If the clasp and knife are thrown out, there is nothing besides the fact that he provided an alibi to Amanda, and he was incorrect about waking up at 6 am that morning, to indicate he would have anything to do with the crime. Otto, sherlockh, would you agree with that? If you had to delete the knife and clasp from your memory would there be enough evidence for you to find him guilty in a legal sense? Did I miss something that convicts him?

ETA: Of course, the number one issue would be his testimony that changed on the 6th from: Amanda was with me all night to: Amanda convinced me that this story was true, if you say Amanda left then she must have left.

Sollecito has no alibi for the night of the murder. The things he said he did have been proven untrue. He lied to police. He claims he was with Knox, and she claims she was at the cottage. Sollecito wrote, while in jail, that Meredith's DNA got on his knife because he cut her when she was at his apt., which is a very irregular lie. We have his footprint on the bathmat ... and I'm sure there's plenty more.

So, in answer to your question about whether the only evidence used to convict the murderers is the knife and the clasp ... no, I don't believe that.

 

[SMK]

I think, as it currently stands, you could potentially see Amanda stay in jail for murder and Sollecito go free. If the clasp and knife are thrown out, there is nothing besides the fact that he provided an alibi to Amanda, and he was incorrect about waking up at 6 am that morning, to indicate he would have anything to do with the crime. Otto, sherlockh, would you agree with that? If you had to delete the knife and clasp from your memory would there be enough evidence for you to find him guilty in a legal sense? Did I miss something that convicts him?

ETA: Of course, the number one issue would be his testimony that changed on the 6th from: Amanda was with me all night to: Amanda convinced me that this story was true, if you say Amanda left then she must have left.

I know - it is a worry. I have seen this discussed on forums. Hope it does not pan out this way.

 

[sherlockh]

I think, as it currently stands, you could potentially see Amanda stay in jail for murder and Sollecito go free. If the clasp and knife are thrown out, there is nothing besides the fact that he provided an alibi to Amanda, and he was incorrect about waking up at 6 am that morning, to indicate he would have anything to do with the crime. Otto, sherlockh, would you agree with that? If you had to delete the knife and clasp from your memory would there be enough evidence for you to find him guilty in a legal sense? Did I miss something that convicts him?

ETA: Of course, the number one issue would be his testimony that changed on the 6th from: Amanda was with me all night to: Amanda convinced me that this story was true, if you say Amanda left then she must have left.

I don't know. Logically I would say these 2 are tied together with super glue. We know from a witness they were together around 8:40pm, and we know that shortly after 9pm RS lies about being at his computer. Then his bloody footprint shows up at the cottage after the murder. Also including the dynamics of the murder, the 2 knives, the cleanup, the staging, the statements made by RS, AK, and now also RG. It wouldn't make any sense if AK was not with RS, but you said legally and I am not a lawyer (and definitely not an Italian one ) so we will see.

I predict a slap on the hand for Stefanoni for not knowing whenever one of her team mates changes his gloves or not. Everything stays the same for RS. And a small increase to 30 years for AK since it was her roommate and the reasons for the mitigating factors such as standing aside when the bedroom door was opened were rather weak. I am probably totally wrong since I am not really a betting man

 

[wasnt_me]

No way!!! I await my own specialized DVD and we can share the popcorn while we listen to it

popcorn and wine from the rubber bottles! it's a date!

 

[otto]

I know - it is a worry. I have seen this discussed on forums. Hope it does not pan out this way.

It's funny, isn't it. Some people think the only evidence against Knox and Sollecito is two pieces of DNA. Imagine an 11 month long trial where six or seven lawyers sat around talking about nothing but the knife and the clasp. Seems like a rather unrealistic view of the case if you ask me.

 

[SMK]

I don't know. Logically I would say these 2 are tied together with super glue. We know from a witness they were together around 8:40pm, and we know that shortly after 9pm RS lies about being at his computer. Then his bloody footprint shows up at the cottage after the murder. Also including the dynamics of the murder, the 2 knives, the cleanup, the staging, the statements made by RS, AK, and now also RG. It wouldn't make any sense if AK was not with RS, but you said legally and I am not a lawyer (and definitely not an Italian one ) so we will see.

I predict a slap on the hand for Stefanoni for not knowing whenever one of her team mates changes his gloves or not. Everything stays the same for RS. And a small increase to 30 years for AK since it was her roommate and the reasons for the mitigating factors such as standing aside when the bedroom door was opened were rather weak. I am probably totally wrong since I am not really a betting man ;)

This could be. I hope not. But I also hope those who expect to see both convictions overturned do not forget that this is not a done deal.

 

[otto]

This could be. I hope not. But I also hope those who expect to see both convictions overturned do not forget that this is not a done deal.

I think it's a done deal that Knox and Sollecito are convicted of murder, and there's a slim possibility that a fraction of the evidence will be put into question because contamination may have occurred in the field, in the lab, or both.

 

[mdana]

When a FOM (Friend/Fellowship of Mendacity) post one of their latest "analysis" of the trial or the murder, I can't help but think of Fraser Crane's comment to Cliff after he went off on some out of this world absurd tangent detached from all norms of reality.

"Hello in there, Cliff. Tell me what color is the sky in your world."

http://www.hark.com/clips/ccxyfctpkh-sky-in-your-world

 

[otto]

In the Knox/Sollecito world, the sky is gray. In the world of those that would like to see them released from jail, the sky is rose colored. In reality, the sky is blue and those guilty of murder should never see that again.

 

[otto]

Speaking of Knox, I'm surprised she hasn't made better use of her time in prison. Sollecito managed to do a degree behind bars - a computer degree without a computer. Any thoughts on why Knox hasn't done anything towards her dreams about getting a degree? I realize that all she wants to do now is get married and have babies, but what happened to those aspirations about writing and being a translator?

 

[mdana]

In terms of the RS' DNA "profile" on MK's bra clasp, I have a few questions. And if anyone with any expertise can explain it to my limited understanding I would appreciate it.

I am not a scientific person, and I won't pretend to be one on the internet. My question is excluding the contamination factor, is it a "full" profile? I don't really understand the discussion of alleles and stutter. My understanding is that it can rule out certain people like Amanda Knox and Casey Anthony. However, is there a European DNA profile that would exclude most people that were born and perhaps have multiple generations of ancestors from North America compared to someone that was European? Is it something like the old school days of pre-1990's when the attacker had O+ it didn't really mean too much since approximately 1 in 4 to 1 in 2 had that blood type. However, if it was AB- or B- it was very incriminating since that was closer to a 1 in a 100 chance.

Also with the way Stefanoni did the test with the machine set at testing limits the machine was not designed to perform is it akin to one of those music graphs that show the treble, bass, etc. that may be able to assign a piece of music is heavy metal or rule out bossa nova, but it can't ascertain between Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, or Anthrax?

If this makes no sense I appologize, I am just trying to understand what it means as an extremely ignorant layman.

 

[wasnt_me]

I thought she was stabbed in the throat. That may have caused her to drown in her own blood, but it wouldn't pierce a lung.

I think AK's remark sounds like a response to the sorts of insipid comments people make after a tragedy. "I hope she didn't feel any pain." "She f__kin' bled to death!" Perhaps not the most sensitive response, but I can understand the feeling.

Good point about the wardrobe. Of course, that statement by AK is ignored. This whole case was constructed like tweezers picking lint from a carpet.

I was talking about my dog who died last year. She drowned in her own blood and her lung was pierced. Most awful thing I ever went through. Completely helpless while she suffered. I just didn't know what the problem was because she'd had a chest xray and the idiot doctor said the lungs were clear.