Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[Sonata]

Think about it. You're a 20 year old woman living in Perugia for a few weeks and you arrive home to find your front door wide open. You think it's wrong, but convince yourself it's okay. You go into your house, knowing that the front door was wide open, convincing yourself that it's normal, looking around to see who is home - who left the door open. You think maybe someone is taking out the garbage so you wait to see. No one else is there. Do you then decide your're not sure what happened, so you'll have a shower alone at home (even though you just had one 10 hours ago) when the front door was wide open and no one was home ... but that wasn't how you left it ... and you were the last person that was supposed to be there?

Is that "ugly coping" too, or is that just Amelie being Amanda?

Amelie?

No I don't think that's ugly coping at all. When I think back to my year abroad to be quite frank with you none of that seems particularly odd. In a foreign country, when living with other girls and when only 20 years old and a student, one tends to be fairly lax with things as the idea of responsibility is still a bit scary, particularly if you don't speak the native language fluently.

Also, if you spend the evening having sex, then 10 hours ago or not, you want another shower.

 

[otto]

Sonata is not attacking you, most people would consider it communication which means a give and take on perspectives.

Exactly ... so there's no reason to preface any remark with "I do not mean this as an attack" ... simple dialogue works just fine.

 

[Sonata]

Why would anyone think that because there was ugly coping after Hurricane Katrina, it means that there is a higher incidence of ugly coping after the discovery of a murder in the home? There is no connection.

I'm not sure how this post relates the post of mine which you quoted.

Me talking about demographics was in relation to mental health research in general. I reference the Katrina research beforehand as part of an entirely different conversation in which we were talking about post-traumatic responses.

ETA: If you want me to come up with a link, there it is - post-traumatic responses.

 

[Sonata]

Exactly ... so there's no reason to preface any remark with "I do not mean this as an attack" ... simple dialogue works just fine.

I think there is because I do not want to risk sounded attacking and I want to make my intentions clear to the mods and other posters.

I find that in written conversation it is very easy to read things with a tone that was not intended. That's all.

 

[otto]

Amelie?

No I don't think that's ugly coping at all. When I think back to my year abroad to be quite frank with you none of that seems particularly odd. In a foreign country, when living with other girls and when only 20 years old and a student, one tends to be fairly lax with things as the idea of responsibility is still a bit scary, particularly if you don't speak the native language fluently.

Also, if you spend the evening having sex, then 10 hours ago or not, you want another shower.

Right. So she was doing the "Amelie" when her imaginings got the better of her, and "ugly coping" when she thought no one was looking?

 

[Sonata]

Right. So she was doing the "Amelie" when her imaginings got the better of her, and "ugly coping" when she thought no one was looking?

I'm really not following this at all now... maybe i've been staring at the screen to long :waitasec:

What do you mean by doing the Amelie? (I haven't seen that film since 6th form).

 

[otto]

I'm not sure how this post relates the post of mine which you quoted.

Me talking about demographics was in relation to mental health research in general. I reference the Katrina research beforehand as part of an entirely different conversation in which we were talking about post-traumatic responses.

Sure, post traumatic stress responses might be ugly coping, and there was a higher incidence of it during Hurrican Katrina ... or did I misunderstand. Because there was a higher incedence of ulgy coping during HUrricane Katrina, it is generalized to suggest that ugly coping is more common than thought and therefore ugly coping, after discovering a murder in the home, is normal. Right?

 

[otto]

I'm really not following this at all now... maybe i've been staring at the screen to long :waitasec:

What do you mean by doing the Amelie? (I haven't seen that film since 6th form).

The Knox defense for lying and refusing to answer questions during trial was put down to Amanda being an Amelie that simply couldn't remember because she confused her imaginings with her dreams and couldn't remember a thing about that stoned night that Meredith was murdered.

 

[Sonata]

Sure, post traumatic stress responses might be ugly coping, and there was a higher incidence of it during Hurrican Katrina ... or did I misunderstand. Because there was a higher incedence of ulgy coping during HUrricane Katrina, it is generalized to suggest that ugly coping is more common than thought and therefore ugly coping, after discovering a murder in the home, is normal. Right?

No, as I said before, I was not using this as a link to AK's specific situation. I was referencing the research of the man whose theory you introduced to the conversation. That is all. <modsnip>

 

[Sonata]

The Knox defense for lying and refusing to answer questions during trial was put down to Amanda being an Amelie that simply couldn't remember because she confused her imaginings with her dreams and couldn't remember a thing about that stoned night that Meredith was murdered.

Hmm, I think you're putting a very different spin on this to what was originally done. Saying that people said she was an Amelie makes it sound as if they are saying it's ok because she is whimsical and this is a creative, kooky response.

From what I gather, the argument relating to this has actually been that she was grilled in a way that involved aggression and trickery resulting in her confusion and desperation to be seen as cooperating. Please note that I am not making a statement here about my beliefs; I am answering your post based on what others have said publicly. Not to be confused with my own words.

 

[SMK]

Think about it. You're a 20 year old woman living in Perugia for a few weeks and you arrive home to find your front door wide open. You think it's wrong, but convince yourself it's okay. You go into your house, knowing that the front door was wide open, convincing yourself that it's normal, looking around to see who is home - who left the door open. You think maybe someone is taking out the garbage so you wait to see. No one else is there. Do you then decide your're not sure what happened, so you'll have a shower alone at home (even though you just had one 10 hours ago) when the front door was wide open and no one was home ... but that wasn't how you left it ... and you were the last person that was supposed to be there?

Is that "ugly coping" too, or is that just Amelie being Amanda?

Otto, I don't think any of this is relevant any longer within this appeal trial. I think they will consider both sides of the DNA, and perhaps TOD and computer records, and make their decision.

 

[Malkmus]

"Amelie" was "the Knox defense for lying and refusing to answer questions during trial" - FALSE

Amanda "couldn't remember a thing about that stoned night that Meredith was murdered." - FALSE

Amanda "partied hard" after the murder - FALSE

Meanwhile, what was the real evidence against AK and RS is now crumbling to pieces in Perugia.

 

[SMK]

Just bringing the articles I posted from this morning's hearing in Perugia forward. I cannot seem to get a feel for what the response was to the police who defended their forensic protocol from November 2007/Dec 2008. Maybe there will be more in-depth pieces later today:

Amanda Knox Cop Defends DNA Evidence12:04pm UK, Saturday July 30, 2011
Nick Pisa, Perugia

A police chief has defended his forensic science team after they were branded incompetent by experts in the Amanda Knox appeal trial. . . .

In a letter to the court Mr Angeloni said:''My department adheres to all the recognised international protocols and carries out more than 25,000 crime scene investigations every year.

''Never has anyone questioned our methods before in such a way. All my staff are highly professional and are taught by experts over a four month course and they have a yearly audit.

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16040314

Amanda Knox appeal: Italian police defend handling of evidence in Meredith Kercher murder trial

Police who collected evidence from the Meredith Kercher murder scene have dismissed accusations that they badly bungled the investigation which led to the conviction of the American student Amanda Knox.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...der-trial.html

 

[SMK]

So apparently Stefanoni did take the stand:

The appeals court on Saturday allowed the police chief who conducted the original investigation, Patrizia Stefanoni, to take the stand, granting a prosecutors' request. Forensic consultants used by the parties, who followed the DNA reviewed, will also be heard.

The experts' strong criticism of the investigation methods led to a letter of protest by forensic police, which was read in court by the presiding judge.
Piero Angeloni, head of the Italian police forensic unit, rejected the accusations, which he said hurt the image of police and undermined their work.

Vecchiotti and her partner in the review, Stefano Conti, are forensic experts from La Sapienza university in Rome.

http://www.newsday.com/news/knox-trial-battle-over-dna-evidence-1.3062850

 

[Malkmus]

Live tweets from the hearing:

http://twitter.com/#!/dougbremner

The knife regarded as the weapon used to kill Meredith Kercher "was not subject to thorough cleaning." The experts have told the Court of Assizes of Perugia responding to a question of the lawyer Luciano Ghirga, one of the defenders of Amanda Knox.

http://translate.google.com/transla...30/t_01_04_2011-07-30_130607755.html?ultimora

 

[SMK]

Live tweets from the hearing:

http://twitter.com/#!/dougbremner



http://translate.google.com/transla...30/t_01_04_2011-07-30_130607755.html?ultimora

Thanks for this, Malkmus.

 

[SMK]

Video of court this morning in Perugia, repubblica.it tv:

http://tv.repubblica.it/cronaca/perugia-amanda-e-raffaele-tornano-in-aula/73591?video

 

[Malkmus]

Video of court this morning in Perugia, repubblica.it tv:

http://tv.repubblica.it/cronaca/perugia-amanda-e-raffaele-tornano-in-aula/73591?video

How strange the commercial that plays is for a toilet paper called "Foxy".

 

[SMK]

How strange the commercial that plays is for a paper towel called "Foxy".

Yes, I had noticed that, too....:waitasec:

 

[SMK]

Bad Google Translation:

Meredith, the clash between the experts on the murder weapon
Continues in the Court of Assizes

trial Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox for the murder in Perugia.

DNA experts in the classroom respond to the judges. And 'battle on the tracks on the knife and the hook of the bra.

Contradiction between the aims pm Manuela Comfortable super-partes and experts who have the charge removed expertise with new analysis on the DNA in the appeal trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher for which have already been convicted at first instance and Raffaele Sollecito Amanda Knox. And right on the genetic profile - found on key pieces - the disccussione was tense.

The prosecutor asked the experts Handy to know if there is, as they indicate a minimum amount of DNA to carry out analysis which bring some identification. The experts stressed that the "discussion is still open" even if there is a literature that since 1998 has set between 100-200 piccogrammi matter to be examined. So, for the prosecutor, there is no standard procedure as they had expected the experts on hand quantities at low organic content such as tracks on the hook of the DNA on the knife and charged, according to the first report, to Amanda and Raffaele. A shift in favor of the prosecution that it devolves on the track putting the genetic material identified and studied by the prosecution.

The prosecutor has proved comfortable in the classroom, on the possible contamination of the murder weapon, which in the six preceding days there were no examinations of the knife with other findings concerning the murder in the laboratory and then there would have been infected as confirmed by also the expert who had indicated the six days as a time to avoid overlapping of DNA on the weapon or other crime.

http://www.iltempo.it/interni_esteri/2011/07/30/1275758-meredith_scontro_periti_sull_arma_delitto.shtml