Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[otto]

I found this floorplan. The kitchen window opens to the balcony. The flat below has a door grill that can be easily climbed to access the balcony.

 

[emyr]

Otto, I actually heard that Lumamba was threatened and intimidated, not that he was beaten. I heard Frank Sfarzo was beaten. But I don't have sources on either of those. I wish I could see the info on his trial against the police.

QUOTE]

If you heard it somewhere ... that Lumumba and Frank were beaten ... perhaps you heard it here. I've heard that there is also a "Mary" on the forums that may be making unsubstaniated claims. Without solid information to contradict the fact that Lumumba did not allege this in his compensation request, there's really no reason to believe this singular, manufactured article. Alternatively, we could believe that everything in the article is factual ... meaning that Knox is of very poor character.

There is no "info ... against the police" in relation to the murder of Meredith Kercher. Allegations have been made that the investigation, forensic testing, prosecution, jury, Judge and evidence were anything from incompetent to corrupt, but what else is new when someone is desperate to get away with murder. Next thing you know we'll have a lying prisoner circus with promises of sex changes and secret payments. Wait a minute ... that already happened.

Sigh. I hate fact checking. Though I recognize it's important.

http://www.cpj.org/2011/04/journalists-threatened-for-reporting-on-murder-cas.php
Sfarzo claimed to them:
The harassment reached its peak on September 28, 2010, when five officers of Squadra Mobile forcibly entered Sfarzo's apartment. They did not produce a warrant or show their badges, Sfarzo told CPJ. Four of the five shoved Sfarzo to the ground, struck him, handcuffed him, and climbed on top of him, crushing his air supply, he told CPJ. They stopped when a neighbor, disturbed by the commotion, showed up, Sfarzo said.

Next, the officers took Sfarzo to the Perugia city hospital, where they claimed he had attacked them; they persuaded a doctor to issue a medical report for the injuries Sfarzo was alleged to have caused. In addition, the Squadra Mobile officers brought Sfarzo before a psychiatrist, demanding that she issue him a certificate of insanity. To prove that Sfarzo was mentally ill, the officers produced Sfarzo's reporter's notebook on the Kercher murder case, which they had seized from his apartment. "They told the doctor that I was pathologically obsessed with the case, that I was so fixated on it I must be insane," Sfarzo told CPJ. The psychiatrist refused to issue the certificate.

I got nothing at all on Lumamba's claims for what happened to him once he was arrested. Good or bad. You got anything?

 

[emyr]

I found this floorplan. The kitchen window opens to the balcony. The flat below has a door grill that can be easily climbed to access the balcony.

Thanks! I remembered the kitchen was by the laundry but thought the living room separated the kitchen from the balcony.

 

[otto]

Sigh. I hate fact checking. Though I recognize it's important.

http://www.cpj.org/2011/04/journalists-threatened-for-reporting-on-murder-cas.php
Sfarzo claimed to them:
The harassment reached its peak on September 28, 2010, when five officers of Squadra Mobile forcibly entered Sfarzo's apartment. They did not produce a warrant or show their badges, Sfarzo told CPJ. Four of the five shoved Sfarzo to the ground, struck him, handcuffed him, and climbed on top of him, crushing his air supply, he told CPJ. They stopped when a neighbor, disturbed by the commotion, showed up, Sfarzo said.

Next, the officers took Sfarzo to the Perugia city hospital, where they claimed he had attacked them; they persuaded a doctor to issue a medical report for the injuries Sfarzo was alleged to have caused. In addition, the Squadra Mobile officers brought Sfarzo before a psychiatrist, demanding that she issue him a certificate of insanity. To prove that Sfarzo was mentally ill, the officers produced Sfarzo's reporter's notebook on the Kercher murder case, which they had seized from his apartment. "They told the doctor that I was pathologically obsessed with the case, that I was so fixated on it I must be insane," Sfarzo told CPJ. The psychiatrist refused to issue the certificate.

I got nothing at all on Lumamba's claims for what happened to him once he was arrested. Good or bad. You got anything?

Did Frank Sfarzo sign the statement? Did he raise this point in the Florence court when his blog was shut down by Google? I understand that he was quietly shut down and that no defense was offered.

What did you get from Lumumba before he was arrested? Nothing after and nothing before means nothing ... that is, he was not beaten.

Furthermore, Frank's complaints about the police relate to him jostling with a camera too close to the Kercher family during the trial. He posted that video on his blog ... the one where he was rough-housed. He and many others were forced to give the Kercher family a respectfully wide berth during the trial ... blogger cameras in their faces were not allowed. It's unfortunate for Frank that he feels victimized because he could not shove a camera in the faces of the victim's family ... but that's how it goes.

I seem to remember something from the trial proceedings that Patrick was not beaten by police, but I haven't gone back to read the transcripts for a link because I simply don't have time.

 

[sherlockh]

1) Judge Micheli said climbing through that window would not take a spiderman.

2) The window of the lawyers office he broke into looks just as complicated.

But, point taken that it is atypical to break in that way. The counter would be, is Rudy an atypical burglar? i.e. it is atypical for a burglar to not burgle things, but Rudy has also been proven to do that as well.

Nothing has been proven. These are internet rumors turned into 'facts' by repeating them over and over. Nobody knows if Rudy broke into the lawyers office.

 

[otto]

Thanks! I remembered the kitchen was by the laundry but thought the living room separated the kitchen from the balcony.

The kitchen and living room are in one space ...immediately upon entering the cottage ... you're standing in the kitchen/living room. Laura and Filomina have bedrooms off the kitchen/living room and they share the large bathroom that also opens to the kitchen/living room. There's an addition on the cottage with Meredith and Knox's bedrooms, as well as a small bathroom and French doors to the deck. The kitchen window opens to the deck. The laundry is in the large bathroom shared by Filomina and Laura.

 

[otto]

Nothing has been proven. These are internet rumors turned into 'facts' by repeating them over and over. Nobody knows if Rudy broke into the lawyers office.

I think the break in to the lawyers office is documented. My understanding is that he climbed over the balcony from the ground floor door grill, and entered through the French doors. Given that the cottage had French Doors, it seems like an obvious point of entry. Once on the deck, realizing that the doors were closed, the window was the next easiest point of entry.

Let's suppose that it was not Guede and not Amanda. That means someone entered through the kitchen window. So ... why was Filomina's second floor (shear wall) window broken ... when the shutters were closed?

 

[sherlockh]

I think the break in to the lawyers office is documented. My understanding is that he climbed over the balcony from the ground floor door grill, and entered through the French doors. Given that the cottage had French Doors, it seems like an obvious point of entry. Once on the deck, realizing that the doors were closed, the window was the next easiest point of entry.

Let's suppose that it was not Guede and not Amanda. That means someone entered through the kitchen window. So ... why was Filomina's second floor (shear wall) window broken ... when the shutters were closed?

The break in itself is documented but not who broke in. Rudy was caught with some of the goods stolen there and claimed he bought it at CS. I know plenty of people who bought stolen goods but they aren't all burglars (none of them I hope ). But you are right Massei made the same conclusions and noted that even if we assume that Rudy was the burglar these are still very different break-ins. It is just the same old spin of Rudy the serial burglar that gets a little boring. JMO.

 

[Nova]

1) Judge Micheli said climbing through that window would not take a spiderman.

2) The window of the lawyers office he broke into looks just as complicated.

But, point taken that it is atypical to break in that way. The counter would be, is Rudy an atypical burglar? i.e. it is atypical for a burglar to not burgle things, but Rudy has also been proven to do that as well.

And the question has to be asked why, if the break in were staged, did the stager(s) choose an unlikely window? Surely he and/or she spent a few moments considering how a burglar would enter the cottage.

 

[Sonata]

And the question has to be asked why, if the break in were staged, did the stager(s) choose an unlikely window? Surely he and/or she spent a few moments considering how a burglar would enter the cottage.

Exactly. I think it's actually more plausible, that if we are maintaining that the culprit did not enter through FR's window, that it was broken in a struggle or during the incident rather than as a staging.

I just think that it doesn't HAVE to be one or the other, and that the assumption that it does potentially limits our understanding of the events that night.

 

[otto]

And the question has to be asked why, if the break in were staged, did the stager(s) choose an unlikely window?
<snipped>
[\QUOTE]

Yes, they chose an unlikely window.

There is no explanation for the second floor window to be broken when it's so easy to climb onto the balcony at the back (away from the road) entrance.

We're talking about a couple that got hooked up and drugged up for a week, and then they murdered her roommate with a drug acquaintance. How much burglary intelligence do you think they should have had in their staging of the "break in" window?

 

[sherlockh]

And the question has to be asked why, if the break in were staged, did the stager(s) choose an unlikely window? Surely he and/or she spent a few moments considering how a burglar would enter the cottage.

It is an unlikely entry looking from the outside, if you are inside it doesn't look so bad. You don't really notice the height of the window. Although AK should have known of course. Maybe they weren't thinking all that clearly?

That the window was broken during a struggle is also an interesting theory but there is not any proof of that. Besides there is a big rock there so there was definitely some staging going on IMO.

 

[Sonata]

That the window was broken during a struggle is also an interesting theory but there is not any proof of that. Besides there is a big rock there so there was definitely some staging going on IMO.

That is true. Good point. Though the discussion ages ago about the rock being a test to see if anyone is home is a possibility.

The thing is, if they were staging it they must have been aware of the height of the window and the implausibility. Not to mention the hassle. When there is a balcony they could have just walked out onto and chucked the rock through. It does seem weird whichever way you look at it. That's why I think there might be some other explanation.

 

[Nova]

Exactly. I think it's actually more plausible, that if we are maintaining that the culprit did not enter through FR's window, that it was broken in a struggle or during the incident rather than as a staging.

I just think that it doesn't HAVE to be one or the other, and that the assumption that it does potentially limits our understanding of the events that night.

If there is some mountain of forensic evidence collected in FR's room I would like to hear what it contains. Until we find it, I'm willing to consider any theory.

I honestly hadn't thought about the possibility that the window was broken as part of a struggle in that room. Interesting possibility. Of course then that leaves open the question of how RG got in.

Massei very quickly concludes that MK would not have opened her door to RG, but this is just one of his many magic leaps of logic. Don't get me wrong. I don't for a moment think MK was "dating" RG or agree to have sex with him. But open the door to a friend of her boyfriend? I think most young people would do so, probably foolishly.

 

[Nova]

Yes, they chose an unlikely window.

There is no explanation for the second floor window to be broken when it's so easy to climb onto the balcony at the back (away from the road) entrance.

We're talking about a couple that got hooked up and drugged up for a week, and then they murdered her roommate with a drug acquaintance. How much burglary intelligence do you think they should have had in their staging of the "break in" window?

They had exactly as much experience with burglary as they had with murder.

 

[Sonata]

If there is some mountain of forensic evidence collected in FR's room I would like to hear what it contains.

I honestly hadn't thought about the possibility that the window was broken as part of a struggle in that room. Interesting possibility. Of course then that leaves open the question of how RG got in.

Massei very quickly concludes that MK would not have opened her door to RG, but this is just one of his many magic leaps of logic. Don't get me wrong. I don't for a moment think MK was "dating" RG or agree to have sex with him. But open the door to a friend of her boyfriend? I think most young people would do so, probably foolishly.

I agree. But also, it is worth remembering that the door had problems and wouldn't always stay shut. So unless MK locked it immediately, RG could perhaps have just come in after her through the door. He could have followed her home in an attempt to mug her if he knew she was carrying her rent money. Maybe he has seen her take it out of the bank earlier.

 

[Nova]

The window was probably taped so if someone broke in, the tape would break, and they'd know the crime scene had been disturbed.

Otto, I actually heard that Lumamba was threatened and intimidated, not that he was beaten. I heard Frank Sfarzo was beaten. But I don't have sources on either of those. I wish I could see the info on his trial against the police.

The only sourced info I dug up was that the police did keep his bar closed for a full three months (according to the guardian who tends to be more circumspect):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/21/italy

To the rest of you guys, interesting tidbits:
http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/page/12/
Like Meredith, Filomena found the high-spirited American girl eccentric. “She had quite a lot of interests. She liked music, sports, yoga, and languages. Sometimes she had unusual attitudes, like she would start doing yoga while we were speaking, or she would play guitar while we were watching TV.”

Only a few members of Meredith’s British social set had actually met Amanda, but they all knew about the singing. At their dinner parties, they often dished about the brash UW student. Meredith shared a laundry list of grievances, saying Amanda skimped out on the cleaning, neglected to flush the toilet, annoyed her by speaking Italian at every opportunity, and strummed the same chord on the guitar over and over again. Meredith also considered Amanda overly admiring of Laura, one of their Italian roommates. Not only did Amanda have too many ear piercings, according to Meredith, but she’d only gotten them because she wanted to imitate Laura, who had at least four in each ear.

“Meredith would tell us about things Amanda did that got on her nerves, but she didn’t necessarily think these things were bad. Just strange,” said Amy.

The cottage’s Italian tenants had a far different take on the two foreign girls and their relationship than did Meredith’s friends. None of the lodgers, upstairs or downstairs, reported any tension between the two girls. Nobody ever heard Amanda criticize Meredith or raise her voice to anyone at any time. In fact, Marco Marzan, one of the boys downstairs, said the relationship was “idyllic.” Laura called it “normale.”

Giacomo, Meredith’s boyfriend, used the word tranquilla (tranquil). “Of all the people in the house, they got on best together,” he said, calling the girls natural allies and good friends. “Amanda was always outgoing. She started coming down to our flat almost from the start when we hardly knew each other. Sometimes she brought us cakes she had made.

Other times she asked me to play music with her. I play bass and she had just begun playing the guitar. She loved music, especially the Beatles.”

It's funny, but all the irritation seems to have been felt by MK and directed toward AK.

So my new theory is that MK committed suicide in order to frame AK. (This, BTW, was the original plot of the film, Fatal Attraction, but test audiences hated it.)

 

[Nova]

I agree. But also, it is worth remembering that the door had problems and wouldn't always stay shut. So unless MK locked it immediately, RG could perhaps have just come in after her through the door. He could have followed her home in an attempt to mug her if he knew she was carrying her rent money. Maybe he has seen her take it out of the bank earlier.

Once the door was open, RG could have forced his way in and then who knows what happened? We know the crime scene was never properly investigated.

 

[Sonata]

Once the door was open, RG could have forced his way in and then who knows what happened? We know the crime scene was never properly investigated.

Agreed. He could have been lurking around the place waiting for her so that he could force his way in.

 

[SMK]

Nothing has been proven. These are internet rumors turned into 'facts' by repeating them over and over. Nobody knows if Rudy broke into the lawyers office.

Yes, but if one has experience with petty criminals, Rudy fits the stereotype of the repeat b & e trouble maker. Poor Meredith, where there is smoke, there is fire.

Speaking of which, in the fall of 2007 a woman in Perugia had her cottage broken into via a window break, and set on fire when the burglar accidentally left a silk scarf over a light bulb. Her cat died of smoke inhalation, and it took 3 years to rebuild the cottage. When Rudy was arrested she wondered if she now knew who had ruined her cottage and killed her cat.

I would not doubt it, proof or no proof. Some things just take common sense. If the police in Perugia had not been so lax with Rudy Guede, (further points to his being a drug informant, rumor or not - many rumors are true) poor MK, AK, and RS would not have been destroyed:

Ten days later, on October 23, Rudy Guede&#8217;s immediate next-door neighbor on via Canerino, Mara Madu Diaz, was at a friend&#8217;s farm in Gualdo Tadino, about an hour&#8217;s drive from Perugia, participating in the vendemmia&#8212;the annual grape harvest.

She knew Rudy, as she often saw him in front of her house on his phone&#8212;he had to stand outside his own house to get cell service. She saw him almost daily, when she walked her dog in the morning and evening. He always said hello and often leaned down and petted her dog. That day, police interrupted her grape harvesting with bad news. Her little medieval house in Perugia&#8212;narrow, three floors high, with a single room on each floor&#8212;had been badly damaged in a fire.

She raced home to find her cat dead and her house nearly destroyed. Firemen and police told her a thief or thieves had entered through a lower window and that the fire had started on the third floor, in her bedroom, where someone had thrown a scarf over a lamp.

Her cat strangled on the smoke, because whoever had feasted in the kitchen had left the pantry door open, blocking the animal&#8217;s escape route. When Mrs. Madu Diaz finally assessed the damage, she found that the thief had cleaned out her jewel box, including a gold watch of her mother&#8217;s.

She didn&#8217;t see Rudy again after the fire. When she learned he had been arrested and had a habit of breaking into homes, she wondered if he&#8217;d had something to do with her disaster. But the police never charged anyone. Her insurance paid for repairs, and the little house became habitable again after three years of work.

October 27. A Saturday. Rudy is arrested inside the Milan nursery school owned by Mrs. Del Prato. Police find Paolo Brocchi&#8217;s laptop and cell phone, a woman&#8217;s gold watch, and a sixteen-inch knife belonging to the nursery school kitchen in his backpack.
How much evidence do you need to prosecute Rudy for burglary? I just don't get it.

forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=215085&page=31