Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #7

[Nova]

Knox was eating pizza until 10, arrived at the police station at about 10:30 with Raffaele, flipped cartwheels and fooled around for an hour, and was then asked to answer some questions at 11:30. At 1:45, her declaration had been was complete.

I admit I get confused at all the declarations.

Was 1:45 a.m. the first written statement?

Was 5:45 a.m. the second?

At what time was the "gift statement" written, or have I have confused the "gift" with statement 1 or 2?

 

[otto]

I admit I get confused at all the declarations.

Was 1:45 a.m. the first written statement?

Was 5:45 a.m. the second?

At what time was the "gift statement" written, or have I have confused the "gift" with statement 1 or 2?

Amanda had already accused Patrick by 1:30/1:45, when she made her first official declaration. That was two hours after the questioning started, and one hour after she had assistance from an interpreter.

From Malkmus;

QUESTURA DI PERUGIA
SQUADRA MOBILE

Re: Minutes of the information conveyed by:
KNOX Amanda Marie, born in Washington (U.S.A.) on July 9th 1987, domiciled in Perugia, Via della Pergola n. 7; identified by means of Passport n. 422687114 issued by the Government of the U.S.A. on June 13th 2007, tel. 3484673590

On November 6th 2007, at 01.45, in Perugia at the Offices of the Squadra Mobile of the Questura of Perugia. Before the undersigned Officers of the Judicial Authority Chief Inspector, FICARRA Rita, assisted by ZUGARINI Lorena and RAFFO Ivano, respectively on duty at the office above mentioned in the epigraph and in presence of the person mentioned in the re who sufficiently understands and speaks Italian, assisted by the English-speaking interpreter Anna Donnino, who, in relation to the death of KERCHER Meredith Susanna Cara and after the precedent declarations, declares the following: ----------------------
“In order to complete what has been retailed before by means of precedent declarations made at this Office, I wish to clarify that I know and see other people who have also come to my house sometimes and who have also met Meredith and of whom I will provide the relevant mobile numbers ----------------------------------------------------
One of these people is Patrik, a colored citizen who is about 1,70-1,75 cm tall, with braids, owner of the pub “Le Chic” located in Via Alessi and I know that he lives in the area near the roundabout of Porta Pesa. Tel. 393387195723, pub where I work twice a week on Mondays and on Thursdays, from 22.00 until about 2.00. -----------------------------------------------
Last Thursday 1st November, day on which I usually work, while I was in the apartment of my boyfriend Raffaele, at about 20.30 I received a message from Patrick on my mobile, telling me that that evening the pub would remain closed because there were no people, therefore I didn’t have to go to work. ----------------------------------------------------------------
I replied to the message saying that we would meet immediately, therefore I went out telling my boyfriend that I had to go to work. I wish to state first that in the afternoon I had smoked a joint with Raffaele, therefore I felt confused because I do not usually make use of narcotics nor harder drugs. -------------------------------------------------------
I met Patrick soon after at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana and we went home. I do not remember if Meredith was already there or if she came later. I find it difficult to remember those moments but Patrick had sex with Meredith with whom he was infatuated but I do not remember well if Meredith had been threatened before. I vaguely remember that he killed her. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Office acknowledges that the statement stops here and KNOX Amanda is put at the disposal of the proceeding Judicial Authority.--------------------------------------------------------
F.L.C.S.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Nova]

Amanda had already accused Patrick by 1:30/1:45, when she made her first official declaration. That was two hours after the questioning started, and one hour after she had assistance from an interpreter.

But accused him of what? Having met her at the cottage? Or did AK provide more details at that time?

 

[Malkmus]

Amanda's questioning started at about 11PM before she was brought into the interrogation room.

By 11 P.M., Ficarra had "a list of subjects indicated by Amanda", which included Juve, Patrick, Spyros, and Shaky among a few other names.

Murder In Italy, C. Dempsey

 

[Malkmus]

I admit I get confused at all the declarations.

Was 1:45 a.m. the first written statement?

Was 5:45 a.m. the second?

At what time was the "gift statement" written, or have I have confused the "gift" with statement 1 or 2?

The gift letter she wrote herself was done after the 5:45 statement was given, but before she was sent to Capanne prison later that day.

 

[Nova]

But accused him of what? Having met her at the cottage? Or did AK provide more details at that time?

Unfortunately, it's too late for me to edit my own post. Obviously, otto and I were posting simultaneously, because his post immediately above answers mine. Thank you, otto.

 

[otto]

Amanda's questioning started at about 11PM before she was brought into the interrogation room.



Murder In Italy, C. Dempsey

I have some problems with the information that Candace Dempsey has brought to the case. Isn't she the cooking column lady that jumped on this case with a very strong bias, who doesn't speak Italian ... and wasn't her husband posting very strange things on the internet? Am I mistaking her with someone else?

She strikes me as an ambulance chaser.

 

[otto]

The gift letter she wrote herself was done after the 5:45 statement was given, but before she was sent to Capanne prison later that day.

I keep coming back to around 3 in the afternoon ... does that sound right?

I guess that would account for a lot of hours if we include the time from when Amanda arrived at the station until the time that she was finally locked in prison and if we tack on the hours during the day ... that would make a long day ... if we add about 14 hours and make it 9 or 10 pm the next day ... about 41 hours altogether. I guess it puts the parent's statements in context, but the problem is that Knox confessed in the evening, well before most of this happened ... within an hour of having an interpreter - So that treatment (whether or not it happened) was well after she made her first declaration against Patrick.

 

[Malkmus]

I have some problems with the information that Candace Dempsey has brought to the case. Isn't she the cooking column lady that jumped on this case with a very strong bias, who doesn't speak Italian ... and wasn't her husband posting very strange things on the internet? Am I mistaking her with someone else?

She strikes me as an ambulance chaser.

Most of your questions are answered here:

http://candacedempsey.com/24.html

As far as jumping on this case "with a very strong bias" I'm not sure where you get that other than perhaps that Candace does think Amanda is innocent. But perhaps you could explain where this notion comes from if not that.
Her husband? No idea. Again, perhaps you could explain.
Ambulance chaser... OUCH. that's a big leap. She was there for much of the trial and interviewed many of the key players and had access to trial transcripts. I've seen many people on sites like True Justice For Meredith Kercher and PMF try to throw her under the bus and damage her credibility for thinking Amanda is innocent, but there's been no real reason to doubt any of the things she's written.

Oh, and as far as the "cooking column lady" goes, I guess it's a theme among authors covering this case. Barbie Nadeau, author of "Angel Face", was also a culinary writer beforehand, having penned a cookbook or two. She, on the other hand, has numerous factual errors in her book but has never been criticized the way Dempsey has been.

 

[Malkmus]

I keep coming back to around 3 in the afternoon ... does that sound right?

I guess that would account for a lot of hours if we include the time from when Amanda arrived at the station until the time that she was finally locked in prison and if we tack on the hours during the day ... that would make a long day ... if we add about 14 hours and make it 9 or 10 pm the next day ... about 41 hours altogether. I guess it puts the parent's statements in context, but the problem is that Knox confessed in the evening, well before most of this happened ... within an hour of having an interpreter - So that treatment (whether or not it happened) was well after she made her first declaration against Patrick.

I'm too lazy right now to verify this, but sure, 3 sounds fine. I've never really tried to pinpoint the exact time. I do know that after being up for approximately thirty straight hours and having your memory messed with, that writing a coherent letter expressing your thoughts on the matter would result in something that would at best be legible, and at worst a complete mess.

 

[otto]

Most of your questions are answered here:

http://candacedempsey.com/24.html

As far as jumping on this case "with a very strong bias" I'm not sure where you get that other than perhaps that Candace does think Amanda is innocent. But perhaps you could explain where this notion comes from if not that.
Her husband? No idea. Again, perhaps you could explain.
Ambulance chaser... OUCH. that's a big leap. She was there for much of the trial and interviewed many of the key players and had access to trial transcripts. I've seen many people on sites like True Justice For Meredith Kercher and PMF try to throw her under the bus and damage her credibility for thinking Amanda is innocent, but there's been no real reason to doubt any of the things she's written.

Oh, and as far as the "cooking column lady" goes, I guess it's a theme among authors covering this case. Barbie Nadeau, author of "Angel Face", was also a culinary writer beforehand, having penned a cookbook or two. She, on the other hand, has numerous factual errors in her book but has never been criticized the way Dempsey has been.

The first question would be why C Dempsey should be considered a spokesperson for the case when she is neither fluent in Italian nor familiar with Italian law.

How were trial transcripts useful to someone that does not speak Italian?

B Nadeau spends too much time discussing the media, but she is not guilty of factual errors. She is fluent in Italian and sat through the trial.

 

[otto]

I'm too lazy right now to verify this, but sure, 3 sounds fine. I've never really tried to pinpoint the exact time. I do know that after being up for approximately thirty straight hours and having your memory messed with, that writing a coherent letter expressing your thoughts on the matter would result in something that would at best be legible, and at worst a complete mess.

For some reason, I remember 3:30 in the afternoon that Knox submitted her gift ... way later than her confession.

Knox, sadly, confessed to involvement in the murder within two hours of being detained, and within one hour of being able to speak with police (with interpreter assistance).

If Knox was quite such a mess from confessing after one hour with an interpreter, it's no surprise that she was loitering in the lingerie shop and doing the splits ... anything to hide the problem.

 

[Malkmus]

The first question would be why C Dempsey should be considered a spokesperson for the case when she is neither fluent in Italian nor familiar with Italian law.

Uh, who's considering her a spokesperson? No one here as far as I know. She's just someone who followed the case from the beginning, wrote a book about it, and came to the same conclusions as many others. And that's quite an arbitrary rule you've set for not being able to trust a source, not speaking the language fluently. I don't think that argument carries much weight, TBH. Especially when she's already explained what resources she had to translate documents and write her book.

How were trial transcripts useful to someone that does not speak Italian?

Read the link I posted, it answers your question.

B Nadeau spends too much time discussing the media, but she is not guilty of factual errors. She is fluent in Italian and sat through the trial.

That's a bold statement and as false as Nadeau's reporting. Here you go:


1. Barbie Latza Nadeau (MSNBC, 3-Apr-10)
"There were 5 spots of blood mixed... Amanda Knox's blood and Meredith Kercher the victim's blood found throughout the house in 5 different areas that were recovered after the use of luminal which is used to recover blood that's been cleaned up."

False. There was no mixed blood of both Amanda and Meredith.

2. Barbie Latza Nadeau (Daily Beast, 27-Jun-09)
"With the exception of a hickey on Knox's neck, no one documented cuts or bruises on either of the current suspects and police say that Guede did not have cuts or bruises on his body when he was arrested nine days after Kercher's murder."

False. Guede was photographed by German police with cuts on his hands when he was apprehended.

3. Barbie Latza Nadeau (Newsweek, 14-Jul-08)
"And by her own account in a prison diary leaked to the media, she details her sexual escapades with at least seven men she'd been with in her three months in Italy before her arrest. She even wrote that she might have HIV and then she uses a process of elimination to narrow down who might have given it to her."

False. The list was not of seven men she’d had sex with in Italy, but a list of all the men she’d slept with last few years, mainly in America.

4. Barbie Latza Nadeau (Daily Beast, 18-Feb-09)
"In one entry, she describes the night of the crime: "That night I smoked a lot of marijuana and I fell asleep at my boyfriend's house. I don't remember anything. But I think it's possible that Raffaele went to Meredith's house, raped her and then killed. And when he got home, while I was sleeping, he put my fingerprints on the knife. But I don't understand why Raffaele would do that."


False. The Correct Quote: " So unless Raffaele decided to get up after I fell asleep, grabbed said knife, went over to my house, used it to kill Meredith, came home, cleaned the blood off, rubbed my fingerprints all over it, put it away, then tucked himself back into bed, and then pretended really well the next couple of days, well, I just highly doubt all of that."

We’ve been over this one already.

5. Barbie Latza Nadeau (Daily Beast, 27-Jun-09)
"He [Rudy Guede] has never changed his story. He has always maintained that they were all there, but that he is not the one who killed her."

False:Rudy Guede in police monitored cell phone call before his arrest (Nov 2007)
"Listen, you know I knew those girls, I knew them both, Meredith and Amanda, but nothing more, you know that. I've been to their house twice, the last time a few days before all this business, but I didn't do anything. I have nothing to do with this business. I wasn't there that evening. If they have found my fingerprints it means I must have left them there before."

Rudy Guede's prison Diary:
"I tried to help her, she who squeezed my hands. She was strong, "But don't leave me alone," she repeated to me. I told her "Don't worry I won't abandon you." Damn, if I had only had my cell phone with me, perhaps I might have saved her."

6. Barbie Latza Nadeau (Daily Beast 4-Dec-09)
"At one point the stepmother of Raffaele Sollecito, Knox's former boyfriend who was sentenced to 25 years for his part in the murder, yelled out "F__k you!"

False: Contradicted by native Italian Frank Sfarzo who was also there. Barbie is the only one who reported hearing it that way.

8. Barbie Latze Nadeau (Angel Face)
“An examination of [Meredith’s] vagina revealed a hair that the police removed and put into a plastic bag. “It’s blonde,” Stefanoni said.”

False. What was at first assumed to be a blonde hair turned out to be a wool fiber like from a sweater. This was verified well before the end of the trial, which Nadeau attended and well before the publication of her book.



The thing is, Otto, I don't even have a problem with Nadeau as a source in general. Reporters make mistakes. But when I see people not wanting to listen to anything a different author says simply because her opinion of the case is different than theirs, well, that's just bias. Perhaps you could share the same viewpoint as me. We'll all get to the truth more easily if we listen to what all sides have to say, and not be selective.

 

[Malkmus]

For some reason, I remember 3:30 in the afternoon that Knox submitted her gift ... way later than her confession.

Knox, sadly, confessed to involvement in the murder within two hours of being detained, and within one hour of being able to speak with police (with interpreter assistance).

If Knox was quite such a mess from confessing after one hour with an interpreter, it's no surprise that she was loitering in the lingerie shop and doing the splits ... anything to hide the problem.

I don't follow your logic, Otto. We know she was in the clothing store buying underwear because all of hers had been locked up in the cottage. And mentioning the splits which happened before the interrogation started just doesn't even make sense with what you're implying.

 

[SleuthyGal]

There's the real facts of the case and then there's the made up 'facts' and it appears the 'made up' facts continue to morph further and further away from reality. I see a great yawning abyss where the truth is being swept, in favor of hyperbolic proclamations.

Bias is really only useful in cutting fabric. It has no benefit in the criminal sciences and in legal cases. And yet, it abounds and multiplies in this case.

Justice is not served when facts are distorted and nuanced into alternative meanings. Justice is not served when facts are made to fit theories. And justice is not served when bias is the order of the day.

 

[Jade]

Just so it is clear who we are all talking about.

The convicted murderer behind bars serving 26 years Amanda Knox:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2830451.ece

Meredith feared the ‘strange men’ brought home by her housemate

Meredith Kercher, 21, said that Amanda Knox, 20, invited men that she had met in bars and internet cafés, including at least one “very strange type”, to the whitewashed hillside cottage that they shared with two Italian women, according to witness testimony leaked to Italian newspapers.

Yesterday Ms Knox’s Myspace profile, on which she posted a story about a girl being drugged and raped under the name Foxy Knoxy, was removed.

Officers have also discovered an “extensive cultivation” of marijuana in the garden of Ms Kercher’s cottage. Both Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito admitted smoking the drug that evening.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2821154.ece

In July Ms Knox, who was educated at a $12,000-a-year (£5,750) Jesuit college, was fined $269 over a “residential disturbance”. She wrote on Facebook: “I don’t get embarrassed and therefore have very few social inhibitions.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2828190.ece

Flatmate posted drug and rape stories on her website profile

Amanda Knox posted short stories on her MySpace page about drugging and raping a young woman and photographing a woman in bed without her knowledge.

Colin Gregg, a former friend who once took Ms Knox to the school prom, told The Times that she had changed radically after leaving school.
“The Amanda I knew at prep would never have done such a thing, but in the three years between when I last saw her there and when I saw her at university she changed so much that I cannot honestly say one way or another what I believe she could or could not do.

The victim Meredith Kercher:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2830451.ece

Ms Kercher was found partially clothed with her throat cut in her bedroom last Friday. She was in Perugia studying Italian as part of her European Studies degree at the University of Leeds. Police have said that she was blameless and “morally upright”.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/International/anniversary-amanda-knoxs-alleged-victims-death-meredith-kercher/story?id=8975821

She was someone very special, Stephanie said, "a 21-year-old student who was into her studies, worked hard, and enjoyed spending time socializing with her friends and family…we feel it is no exaggeration to say that Meredith touched the lives of everyone she met with her infectious upbeat personality, smile and sense of humour."
In Italy Meredith "was excited at the prospect of…studying to improve her language skills, meet new friends, and immerse herself in the culture," Stephanie said.

The Agony of Meredith Kercher's Father
Before leaving for Italy, Meredith's father, John Kercher, a free-lance journalist, wrote a story in which he described for the first time how he found out she had died.
"I am at home when Meredith's mother Arline calls to say she's heard reports that a British girl student has been murdered in Perugia," Kercher wrote on June 6 in the English Daily Mirror.
"Obviously, there is concern. But there are thousands of British students in Perugia, and you try to use that as a calming influence."
But after dozens of calls fruitless calls to Meredith's phone over the course of an hour, "my instincts have kicked in. I have to get information fast," he continues.
He asked his colleagues at the Mirror for help. "There's some reluctance from the woman on the phone to give me the information. But I shall never forget her words: 'The name going around Italy is Meredith.'"
"I drop the phone. I don't believe it and think there must be a mistake. But I know it's probably true."
His fears turned to fact and the family traveled to Italy to identify and retrieve Meredith's body.

 

[otto]

Thanks Jade for clarifying the facts.

We also have Knox confessing at 1:30 and claiming that the only reason she confessed was because she was hungry sometime later, thirsty sometime later, tired several hours later, didn't have an interpreter even though one was present, and popped on the head twice (physical abuse).

 

[SleuthyGal]

The known, DNA-verified person who last had contact with MK is Rudy Guerde. He is the murderer of Meredith Kercher. His fingerprints and DNA were found in MK's bedroom and in/on the victim. Guede is the one who had a prior criminal history, including breaking & entering, and with a knife as a weapon.

 

[otto]

The known, DNA-verified person who last had contact with MK is Rudy Guerde. He is the murderer of Meredith Kercher. His fingerprints and DNA were found in MK's bedroom and in/on the victim. Guede is the one who had a prior criminal history, including breaking & entering, and with a knife as a weapon.

Criminal History: Raffaele and Knox both had a history with violating the law. Knox had the disturbance charge, and police had found Raffaele with 2.67 grams
hashish in 2003.

Knives: Rudy had been known to carry a knife, Raffaele had been known to have a knife collection and to carry knives.

DNA: Rudy left evidence of himself at the scene (the cottage). Raffaele and Knox left evidence on the bra (Raffaele's team found Knox DNA on the bra). Knox left mixed DNA samples at the scene.

All three are convicted of the violent murder; 44 injuries to the victim.

 

[Nova]

I'm too lazy right now to verify this, but sure, 3 sounds fine. I've never really tried to pinpoint the exact time. I do know that after being up for approximately thirty straight hours and having your memory messed with, that writing a coherent letter expressing your thoughts on the matter would result in something that would at best be legible, and at worst a complete mess.

Malkmus, otto, "sometime in the afternoon" is plenty close enough for me. I was just trying to place the gift in relation to the two official written statements. Thanks again.