Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox Conviction Overturned #22

[darnudes]

She was acquitted - Hellman says she did not commit the ennumerated crimes.:furious:

As was OJ but that didn't stop a civil suit against him - on American soil no less.

 

[SunD]

As was OJ but that didn't stop a civil suit against him - on American soil no less.

Any lawyer can tell you that a civil suit would be completely meaningless. A United States court wouldn't even have jurisdiction and neither would a British Court.

 

[SkewedView]

Posted on JREF, it speaks loudly of Mignini's overreactions:

http://saberpoint.blogspot.com/2011/10/migninis-keystone-kops-arrest-british.html

I'm going to be fair to Mignini here. This is more of an indication of how far out of control the international 'drug war' has become than anything else. Botched or mistaken paramilitary raids on homes for the flimsiest of reasons have become standard fair in the US, EU and elsewhere, with no sign of letting up - indeed, it appears to be accelerating. It has become so common that it takes the death of a child to make anyone notice anymore.:furious:

On the other hand, Frank's last article had a nice list of individuals who have been wrongfully prosecuted by Mignini, some of whom I had not been familiar with. One is a very recently acquitted former *advertiser censored* star...that one I'd like to see more about...purely for research purposes, of course. :innocent:

 

[nursebeeme]

please attack the post and not the poster. thank you

 

[SMK]

@SunD: You are correct, this case is over, and Amanda and Raffaele will never spend another day in jail.

I sometimes think, looking at all the forums, not just this one, that those of us who understand this should simply have stopped talking. That in itself would have made a powerful statement.

 

[SMK]

Other forums are stating that it depends on whether or not this verdict is a 530.1 or 530.2 If the verdict is not guilty because they did not do it, then the appeal to the supreme court can only be about procedural issues (i.e. did Hellman not follow the legal code in some way). This kind of overturn is extremely rare. If it's a 530.2, not guilty because not enough evidence, then there is some more flexibility on the appeal, though it would still be atypical for the decision to be reversed.

Currently, everyone seems to be under the impression that this was a 530.1 verdict, i.e. not guilty because they didn't do it.

I think in fact it was a 530.1 verdict. Case closed.:great:

 

[SkewedView]

I think in fact it was a 530.1 verdict. Case closed.:great:

BBM. Didn't you learn from PLE that it's bad luck to say that? :crazy:

In all seriousness though, it's not over til the high court sings, if even then. This case has left an awful lot of legacies and landmines in its wake, and who can say what toll they will eventually take on the principle figures in this sad tale.

 

[SkewedView]

Any lawyer can tell you that a civil suit would be completely meaningless. A United States court wouldn't even have jurisdiction and neither would a British Court.

Actually, as the UK and Italy are both signitories of the various EU charters, including ones that cover inter-judicial issues, it's likely that the Kerchers do have the ability to file suit. That would cover RS just fine. Now as to what affect that would have on AK in the US...*shrug*...beats me...

 

[ohiogirl]

@SunD: You are correct, this case is over, and Amanda and Raffaele will never spend another day in jail.

I sometimes think, looking at all the forums, not just this one, that those of us who understand this should simply have stopped talking. That in itself would have made a powerful statement.

I agree, but it is tough when you see misinformation continually put out there as if it's the truth. :crazy:

 

[SMK]

BBM. Didn't you learn from PLE that it's bad luck to say that? :crazy:

In all seriousness though, it's not over til the high court sings, if even then. This case has left an awful lot of legacies and landmines in its wake, and who can say what toll they will eventually take on the principle figures in this sad tale.

I do wonder, though, if the high court will even agree to hear the prosecution. They can deny to hear it. Points taken. :seeya:

Just a very small excerpt from an argument against SC overturning of the acquittals, JREF:

A confusing Hellman sentence report seems likely which won’t be able to dispose of the Massei and Micheli reports because Hellman did not look at all issues

The Hellmann motivations report will not be "confusing". It will state that the evidence placed before that court was not only insufficient to prove the guilt of Knox and Sollecito in the murder, but that there actually was no evidence that tended to demonstrate their guilt. The report will justify the Lumumba slander guilty verdict by saying that it's undisputed that Knox accused Lumumba, that she must have known that he was working in his bar that night (and therefore she knew he couldn't have been involved in the murder), and that there's no evidence that she didn't have the mens rea for the criminal accusation. I believe that Hellmann's conclusion on the Lumumba slander charge is worthy of challenge at the Supreme Court, but that's not to say that his report will be "confusing" in how it explains his court's findings.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7662034#post7662034

 

[Madeleine74]

The misinformants, rumormongers, and creativeStoryTellers will eventually (if not already) be seen for exactly what they are: whackadoodle doo crazy, grinding an axe not of their own, railing against people they've never met and have no connection to.

Because they can no longer point to any physical evidence as a link to AK and RS in an otherwise bloody and telling crime scene that does have fingerprints, footprints, and DNA, they will instead attack (or attempt to attack) the only thing they have left: the imagined behaviors and reactions of the innocent and freed forever former college kids. These behaviors and reactions will be imagined because of course nothing was recorded and with enough language interchanges and creative hole filling, they will concoct a doozy of a tall tale.

It won't surprise me to next see Amanda and Raffaele compared to Hitler. You know an argument has truly and well jumped every shark when nazis are brought into the mix.

The hysteria and hyperbole is getting pretty close now, I can feel it. Will Nancy Grace be the first in the media to suggest such a thing?

 

[SMK]

The misinformants, rumormongers, and creativeStoryTellers will eventually (if not already) be seen for exactly what they are: whackadoodle doo crazy, grinding an axe not of their own, railing against people they've never met and have no connection to.

Because they can no longer point to any physical evidence as a link to AK and RS in an otherwise bloody and telling crime scene that does have fingerprints, footprints, and DNA, they will instead attack (or attempt to attack) the only thing they have left: the imagined behaviors and reactions of the innocent and freed forever former college kids. These behaviors and reactions will be imagined because of course nothing was recorded and with enough language interchanges and creative hole filling, they will concoct a doozy of a tall tale.

It won't surprise me to next see Amanda and Raffaele compared to Hitler. You know an argument has truly and well jumped every shark when nazis are brought into the mix.

The hysteria and hyperbole is getting pretty close now, I can feel it. Will Nancy Grace be the first in the media to suggest such a thing?

Well said. :seeya: And Knox's family were already compared with "Nazi Propagandists" during the appeals, so we are getting close!

 

[SMK]

I find the following, posted on PMF, to be highly unlikely:

Knox and Sollectio being acquitted has nothing to do with any desire to "mock the victim's grave":

Really far-fetched, sensationalistic, and lurid. :furious:

It looks like Daniel Sandford of the BBC saw it too:

Quote:
Daniel Sandford #meredithkercher family complaining that some #amandaknox supporters are mocking her grave on Twitter
Il y a 7 heures via Twitter for BlackBerry®



We won't post the tweets here. We hope that FOA founders and leaders will put a stop to this.

 

[SMK]

:furious::furious::furious:
I am glad London John at JREF already made mincemeat of this post:

In short, the individual who wrote this tripe is not only ignorant of many of the key facts underpinning the subject of the post, but (s)he is also clearly hopelessly over-invested in a visceral desire to see Knox and Sollecito found guilty of the murder - even when all the actual evidence points to a different conclusion.



The rest links HERE.

It really ain’t over until it’s over, and knowing the hyper-cautious Italian justice system, maybe not even then.

Now the drama moves to Rome.

Before any verdict and sentence in the case can become final, under Italian law and the constitution the verdict and sentence must be endorsed by the Supreme Court of Cassation.

If either the prosecution or defenses demand that issues be looked at by Cassation (as we know, the prosecution will) Cassation will do so, and it may punt the case back down to the first appeal court to re-examine questions or even run a complete re-trial at first appeal level.

At Cassation level the prosecution is likely to have at least five advantages.

1) A confusing Hellman sentence report seems likely which won’t be able to dispose of the Massei and Micheli reports because the Hellman court did not re-examine all issues

2) Cassation’s ruling on the final appeal of Rudy Guede which points to three perps, and Cassation’s general tendency to side with trial courts against first-appeal courts.

3) The likelihood that only the prosecution will file issues for consideration by Cassation and not the defenses and so the prosecution will dominate all proceedings.

4) Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito and entourages seem unlikely to be there in person for the Cassation hearings or a retrial, and emotive factors would be less in play.

5) The Italian media and Italian public opinion and increasingly UK and US opinion seem to be taking the position that the Hellman appeal decision was unsatisfactory.
Two days ago, the Sunday Times ran this fine analysis below by their reporter on the case, John Follain, of the open issues that will be facing Cassation and possibly again facing the lower appeal court.

With a dozen books out John Follain has by far the largest and most impressive book publishing record of any reporter on the case.

Publishers Hodder and Stoughton have announced that his book Death in Perugia: The Definitive Account of the Meredith Kercher Case will be released first in the UK later this month - on 25 October.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

 

[SMK]

On Nina Burleigh and Knox: The New York Times:

Between Journalist and Advocate: The Amanda Knox Case

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/fashion/between-journalist-and-advocate-the-amanda-knox-case.html

 

[SMK]

Excerpt from the Nina Burleigh, above:

Some months later, in August 2010, I met Knox briefly in Capanne women’s prison, which is a short drive from Perugia. She had cut her hair and looked younger and more frail than during her trial. She wore a red Beatles sweatshirt, black leggings and silver nail varnish.

When I arrived, she was pushing a trolley down a corridor.

A guard explained that her job was to collect orders from other prisoners for small goods they could buy: newspapers, cigarettes, coffee, magazines and — at that time of year — strawberries. We were allowed to talk for only a few moments, but a guard told me: “She’s pretty well. Amanda’s confident that the future will bring freedom for her. She doesn’t break down in tears. It’s nothing like the night of tears after the verdict, when we had to comfort her.”

I was told she had been reading — in Italian — the 427-page summary by the two judges at her trial, who had dissected the inconsistencies in her evidence.

[...]Mr. Guede was a Dickensian character, a poor immigrant from Ivory Coast adopted, then rejected, by one of Perugia’s richest families. His bloodied footprints had been found around Ms. Kercher’s body, and he had been convicted before the Knox trial began. Prosecutors argued that Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito had acted with him.
Enlarge This Image


But Ms. Burleigh focused on Mr. Guede’s crimes in the weeks before Ms. Kercher’s murder. He had broken into a nursery school, a law office and another apartment, in each case, making himself at home: turning up the heat, preparing a meal, taking a few things — and if confronted, defending himself with a chair or a quick excuse.

Ms. Burleigh came to believe he approached the girls’ apartment the same way, with the same intent and killed Ms. Kercher when she unexpectedly returned. “I don’t believe Rudy Guede operated in concert with anyone,” she said. “He didn’t do his earlier crimes with others.” She also argues that Ms. Knox was pressured into a confession in the wee morning hours after a long night of relentless questioning, during which she was coaxed by an interpreter who said it was “normal to forget the details of a trauma.”

BUT for some who follow true-crime reporting, the story of authors who come to be as much participant as chronicler of the story they are following has a decidedly familiar ring. It is one of which Ms. Burleigh herself is aware.

 

[SunD]

Actually, as the UK and Italy are both signitories of the various EU charters, including ones that cover inter-judicial issues, it's likely that the Kerchers do have the ability to file suit. That would cover RS just fine. Now as to what affect that would have on AK in the US...*shrug*...beats me...

Well I don't know much about EU law but I highly doubt they actually have grounds if they've already sued her civilly in Italy and lost, which they did during the criminal trial.

I read that they might be trying to prevent Knox from profiting from telling her story which, being that she was acquitted, I don't think they'll have any luck.

 

[SkewedView]

Well I don't know much about EU law but I highly doubt they actually have grounds if they've already sued her civilly in Italy and lost, which they did during the criminal trial.

I read that they might be trying to prevent Knox from profiting from telling her story which, being that she was acquitted, I don't think they'll have any luck.

I haven't had a chance to check out whether there actually is a route through the EU courts or not, so all I can say for now is that one should never underestimate the EU's obsession with micro-managing its member nations. After all, this is the body that is currently forcing its members to ban children under fourteen from blowing up balloons or using other traditional party favors by themselves.

And if they can find a venue to file suit, I give them very good odds on being successful, given the Kerchers' good standing with the public as compared to AK's much more...inconsistent public image. Not to mention, civil juries are much more inclined to vote with their hearts than those in criminal trials - and it is almost impossible to not sympathize with the plight of the Kerchers.

All JMO, nothing to back this post up at this point.

 

[SunD]

I haven't had a chance to check out whether there actually is a route through the EU courts or not, so all I can say for now is that one should never underestimate the EU's obsession with micro-managing its member nations. After all, this is the body that is currently forcing its members to ban children under fourteen from blowing up balloons or using other traditional party favors by themselves.

And if they can find a venue to file suit, I give them very good odds on being successful, given the Kerchers' good standing with the public as compared to AK's much more...inconsistent public image. Not to mention, civil juries are much more inclined to vote with their hearts than those in criminal trials - and it is almost impossible to not sympathize with the plight of the Kerchers.

All JMO, nothing to back this post up at this point.

Well I think you raise interesting questions, and again, I've never practiced any form of international law and really don't know much about how EU courts work. It does seem that you've raised the inference that parties in interest can just forum shop different countries in Europe every time they lose a civil suit. Seems kind of whack, but maybe you can give some insight.

I can speak to US law and can say unequivocally they have no chance in hell here in the US.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

And if they can find a venue to file suit, I give them very good odds on being successful, given the Kerchers' good standing with the public as compared to AK's much more...inconsistent public image. Not to mention, civil juries are much more inclined to vote with their hearts than those in criminal trials - and it is almost impossible to not sympathize with the plight of the Kerchers.

All JMO, nothing to back this post up at this point.

SkewedView,

I hope you are wrong. I thought I had seen the worst character-blackening of any young person I would ever observe after Michael Nifong and others had gotten through with the three Duke lacrosse students. Yet, I think that Amanda Knox was treated at least as badly by LE and by large segments of the press as David Evans, Collin Finnerty, and Reade Seligman were, and that is going a ways. If her public image becomes a problem in a future civil trial, it would be unjust.