Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #1

[CathyinTexas]

Really good points, Missy. Why give a crap about border security now, TH? It bothers me that she shows no emotion. You mention screaming to get her husband back. You know, she shows no feelings of anger toward the gunmen AT ALL. She really doesn't even get too upset when she's asked about people doubting her story. If my husband were brutally murdered right in front of me, I would get furious at accusations toward me. Instead, she says she understands why some people suspect her. (or something to that effect)

I don't get it, but it bothers me.

She must be on medication. It does cause a person to lack affect.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

How was the Hartley's crossing into Mexico at Falcon Lake illegal?

I was taking other members' word for it.

It just seemed logical to me that it would be illegal for a Mexican boater to cross the lake and pull up on American land and vice versa.

But I really don't know for sure. I hope someone else does. I would edit my earlier post if I could.

That aside, it still seems odd to me for someone who crossed the border so easily to turn around and be concerned about securing the border.

 

[WellDone]

I haven't heard anyone talk about the normal stages of grief. Also, the grief process is longer and even more pronounced when a loved one is a victim of a violent crime. This poor young woman has not had a chance to really grieve since this started. From the moment she appealed to the witness for help she has been in the spotlight. I can't imagine being on one news show much less multiple daily. She has been vilified by the public at large, and she may now be entering the anger phase of grief. The anger could be compounded given all the criticism she is getting and the anger at those who did this to her husband, and the normal anger a person grieving feels in the process. I hope that we will all give her a break. Hopefully she will be fully vindicated.

BBM

I really agree with all you wrote above... & the next 2 posts..

PLUS...

I was just thinking that for MANY, if not ALL.... of the very same reasons that I find TH credible are the VERY same reasons some here find her guilty, hiding something, not trustworthy....etc.

Amazing!

 

[Tuffy]

How was the Hartley's crossing into Mexico at Falcon Lake illegal?

You have to enter Mexico at a border crossing. There is no checkpoint at Falcon Lake.

 

[Ransom]

You have to enter Mexico at a border crossing. There is no checkpoint at Falcon Lake.

No you don't. Fishing/boating at Falcon Lake or Lake Amistad (another lake that shares waters with Mexico/Texas) does not require any entry requirements. IF you are fishing in Mexican waters, you do need a Mexican fishing license just as you need a Texas fishing license to fish on the US side. There is nothing "illegal" about it. I've done it many, many times at both lakes while visiting Texas.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

http://www.valleycentral.com/news/story.aspx?id=524589

[snipped]This type of violence along the border is nothing new to those living near it. But for someone like Tiffany it was a complete shock.

She said she was unaware of the violence until three years ago when she and David moved to Reynosa.

"We were just as naive as most of the people in the United States if you don't live along the border you don't know and we didn't know," said Hartley.

/article

So they knew about the violence three years ago, yet still chose to go into a potentially dangerous situation?

Interesting.

For the record I don't feel certain one way or the other about whether Tiffany is being truthful, but there are various aspects of the whole situation, and her story about it, that don't make logical sense to me. MOO JMO etc.

 

[Tuffy]

No you don't. Fishing/boating at Falcon Lake or Lake Amistad (another lake that shares waters with Mexico/Texas) does not require any entry requirements. IF you are fishing in Mexican waters, you do need a Mexican fishing license just as you need a Texas fishing license to fish on the US side. There is nothing "illegal" about it. I've done it many, many times at both lakes while visiting Texas.

It is okay to fish on the Mexican side of the lake apparently, but you cannot go into Mexico on the land. If they parked their jet skis and took pictures on land, then it would be illegal. I haven't heard whether or not they landed.

 

[Ransom]

It is okay to fish on the Mexican side of the lake apparently, but you cannot go into Mexico on the land. If they parked their jet skis and took pictures on land, then it would be illegal. I haven't heard whether or not they landed.

The Old Guerrero town/church is underwater. There is no land. Just the top part of the old mission is visible. Even IF they landed (somewhere?) that's still not illegal since it is within the border zone area where no documents are required.

Even at a border crossing, there are no requirements to ENTER Mexico for US citizens unless you are going farther than the border zone (typically 30-50 miles) depending on where the check point would be in the interior of Mexico. Getting back IN the US, at border crossings, requires documents to be presented to the US immigration.

 

[sorrell skye]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/st...ithout_david_104711294.html?showFullArticle=y

Tiffany said she hoped a Texas Department of Public Safety video showing Tiffany and David getting stopped for an expired tag the morning of the incident, as well as a report that Border Patrol agents saw the couple at a Subway restaurant eating lunch, would help convince naysayers.

“Me being a Christian and believing in God, I believe [God] he lined all that up, he lined up the traffic stop, he lined up us going to Subway and having the Border Patrol there so my story would be supported by events that happened,” she said.

God lined all that up so her "story" would be supported?! What about lining up a few events to prevent David from being shot (IF he was indeed shot)?!

IMO, this is reminiscent of Bethany Storro, (who claimed that "God" told her to buy a pair of sunglasses before her fictitious attacker threw a cup of acid in her face).

This isn't even logical thinking. In fact, it's self-serving thinking.

MOO

 

[sorrell skye]

Not to mention that the above quoted chain of events doesn't prove anything, except that they were pulled over for expired tabs on the trailer, and that they ate @ Subway before they launched.

 

[Tuffy]

The Old Guerrero town/church is underwater. There is no land. Just the top part of the old mission is visible. Even IF they landed (somewhere?) that's still not illegal since it is within the border zone area where no documents are required.

Even at a border crossing, there are no requirements to ENTER Mexico for US citizens unless you are going farther than the border zone (typically 30-50 miles) depending on where the check point would be in the interior of Mexico. Getting back IN the US, at border crossings, requires documents to be presented to the US immigration.

Wow, thanks Ransom. My "knowledge" of the laws at the border were way off! Sheesh, I need to educate myself. Anyway, thanks for keeping me from further spreading my misinformation. :blushing:

 

[pinkpuddytat]

As several here have pointed out, she and her husband crossed the border illegally.

So now she's worried about border security? :waitasec:

Not to mention that, at least according to her version of events, the murder took place in Mexico, so the murderers didn't cross any border to do the deed.

Maybe what she means is "Our government should secure the border so people like me and my late husband can't go wandering across it and get murdered in Mexico".

 

[pinkpuddytat]

The Old Guerrero town/church is underwater. There is no land. Just the top part of the old mission is visible. Even IF they landed (somewhere?) that's still not illegal since it is within the border zone area where no documents are required.

Even at a border crossing, there are no requirements to ENTER Mexico for US citizens unless you are going farther than the border zone (typically 30-50 miles) depending on where the check point would be in the interior of Mexico. Getting back IN the US, at border crossings, requires documents to be presented to the US immigration.

My understanding is that the town and church are only seasonally flooded, so that makes for some major gray area as to whether people went onto land or not. 30-50 miles sounds like a loooong way in -- seems to me one would be unlikely to run into a border checkpoint after having already gone that far in, unless you were specifically searching for one. It may well be true, but makes no sense to me. Especially given the situation going the other direction, where once Mexicans are illegally one foot onto our soil, it becomes illegal for our LE to ask them for any documentation.

 

[Ransom]

My understanding is that the town and church are only seasonally flooded, so that makes for some major gray area as to whether people went onto land or not. 30-50 miles sounds like a loooong way in -- seems to me one would be unlikely to run into a border checkpoint after having already gone that far in, unless you were specifically searching for one. It may well be true, but makes no sense to me. Especially given the situation going the other direction, where once Mexicans are illegally one foot onto our soil, it becomes illegal for our LE to ask them for any documentation.

Several tropical storms brought lots of rain to that area this summer. Only time Old Guerrero is above water is during EXTREME drought conditions.

http://www.usembassy-mexico.gov/eng/eacs_sheet.html

Entry to Mexico: As of March 1, 2010, all U.S. citizens – including children -- must present a valid passport, book or card, for travel beyond the “border zone” into the interior of Mexico. Entry by any means, for example by plane or car, is included in this requirement. The “border zone” is generally defined as an area between 20 to 30 kilometers of the border with the U.S., depending on the location. Stays of less than 72 hours within the border zone do not require a visa or tourist card.

 

[hollyblue]

For what it's worth:

[SIZE=-1]3) Before loading your vehicle and boat, check to make sure there are no guns or ammunition of any kind, which have inadvertently fallen in the dash, rolled under the seat or have been forgotten in one of the storage compartments. Even one shell can have severe consequences, including imprisonment and seizure of your rig, if found during an entry inspection.[/SIZE]

http://www.tackleandrods.com/mexico/mextravel.htm

It is prohibited to discharge firearms in Mexican waters.

http://www.tackleandrods.com/permits/permits.htm

 

[sorrell skye]

"So my *story*..."

This is not the first time that TYH has used the word "story" to describe what she says happened on the lake on Sept. 30.

I don't believe I've ever heard of crime victims refer to their experience as a *story* (which TYH has done in multiple interviews).

For that matter, I don't believe I've ever heard of surviving victims of extreme violence that resulted in the death of a loved one refer to the violence as "stupid" (as TYH has done).

 

[Kateyes]

When this story initially broke, I accepted it at face value. Then, as more details were revealed I still believed Tiffany's account of events, but felt quite strongly that there were additional details about why the couple were there that Tiffany did not divulge. Now, Tiffany has made several tv statements, and there are conflicting statements from the Mexican government re: suspects. In addition, the logical breakdown of other aspects - the eye witness who did not see David get shot but saw Tiffany all shook up, the stop by LE for the expired tag, the Border Patrol agents who saw them at subway - none of those aspects really can prove exactly what happened to David, only where the couple were prior to the tragic event. So, sadly, the more I hear from Tiffany, and the more I read in the news, the less I find her story credible. Something just isn't ringing true, IMHO. I sure do hope I am wrong.

 

[Kateyes]

Just wanted to add two more cents: One of the things that has bothered me greatly from the beginning is Tiffany's statement that she was being shot at while riding away from the pirates on her jetski. Sounds like a scene from a James Bond movie - she manages to evade every bullet?? And why did the pirates shoot her husband in the head point blank, but wait until after she tried to get his body onto her jetski before shooting at her?? It seems to me that while she was occupied trying to get the body onto her jetski that the pirates would have had a great oppportunity to shoot her. So many things just don't add up, IMO.

 

[wasnt_me]

Thx Blondie - I don't know what to think, either.

It's kind of astounding that after shooting & killing her husband, one of them held a gun to her head, but then for some unknown reason just let her go unharmed - especially since she's a potential witness to an alleged homicide.

Sounds like Jodi Arias' story to me of when she was taking naked pictures of her ex travis alexander in the shower and masked assailants just happened to burst in and shot him in the head and press a gun to her head, but the gun just didn't go off.

I have a crazy thought that this is a hoax to draw attention to the border and the husband will show up with a wild story and a grazed gunshot wound. He'll say he somehow made it somewhere with his jet ski. I just keep hearing her repeat the theme of do something about the borders. It seems more resounding than her grief fear or worry over her husband.

 

[wasnt_me]

OK, I'm gonna walk the plank and state that I DO believe Tiffany.
These things prevent me from believing this is a scam:
1) Witness to her flight across the lake pursued by at least one boat.
Who is this exactly and what is their exact story? We don't know.
2) Witnesses who heard the gunshots.
Who heard this? A lady on FB who hasn't gone public in any other manner?
3) At least five attacks on boaters in this lake in the last 6 months by similar individuals.
In the attacks I read about, the people were robbed, not killed. Why were these two shot at without in an approach to rob? You can carry wallets and stuff while on a jet ski. Even when they were "Deciding what to do with her" they could have at least tried to rob her. Any good pirate knows that's step one.
4) Government officials have been stating for months to stay out of Mexico since it is too dangerous.
exactly, so if it's so dangerous, how the hell does a novice like her make it out?
5) Sheriff won't go over to participate in search because it is too dangerous.
Agreed, so if professionals refuse to go in, who does a gunless novice make it out?
6) Established tours for Old Guerrero - lots of people go there for the same reason. established tours being the operative phrase. These two sneaked over the mexican border.

Not trying to be challenging. These are just my questions or doubts about the points outlined.