Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #1

[SoSueMe]

I wonder if it's bad reporting or if there really was "microscopic" drops of blood on her life vest. If it were microscopic, it would not be seen with the naked eye, only under a microscope.

It does seem odd that the only physical evidence so far (her life vest and her jet ski) have already been returned to her. The sheriff says it is the Mexican authorities that have the jurisdiction to investigate and prosecute this crime because it happened in Mexico. Right?

Microscopic drops of blood? Didn't Tiffany say her husband was shot in the head and his brains were falling out? She was cradling him and trying to get him on her jet ski, so why wasn't her vest covered in David's blood?

I have no doubt something went down on the lake that day, but there's more to this story. I would believe Tiffany if she were consistent with her "story."

Sure the sheriff returned her vest, he has so much as told us he has no intention of investigating this crime.

 

[SoSueMe]

I also think it's odd that Tiffany was pretty adamant that David's body would be found on LAND. Why would she think that if he was shot and left in the middle of the lake?

 

[SoSueMe]

As for the SIL, I find it interesting that these people had such an interest in guns. There is nothing wrong with an interest in guns. I've lived in Texas all my life and own several myself, but I do get nervous when people have a fascination with assault rifles and in particular, an AK-47. Why would anyone need or want one of those? You certainly can't hunt with them. They're used for killing people.

 

[4BB]

I have questions about the life jacket.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why her husband was face down in the water with a life vest on. The life vest is engineered to make sure this does not occur. I have had much experience with life vests and mine float me at an angle slightly backwards

These are just side notes. My main question is above about the life vest.
I also cannot imagine how much strength is must take to flip a large, lethargic grown man over in the water. There is no leverage or friction to work with you. Like for instance, if you lay a large man on the floor and try to flip him over, you have the flooring to hold the opposite shoulder as you flip. I understand his body weight in the water was much lighter.

Im thinking that maybe it's possible to be at has head as its floating facing down. Having his head at your chest and both of your arms parallel with his arms. Grabbing both sides of his life vest (shoulder area) at the same time using one hand to push (creating leverage) and the other to pull over.

Visual: stick both hands straight out, grab an imaginary object...twist that object with your left hand over and right hand under. Could you do that with dead weight in the water? (I hate using that word, sorry) I think maybe with a great flow of adrenaline I *might* can do that.

I do no think I could flip dead weight in the water if the person and I were both positioned like a letter T. Basically that would be me pushing against a shoulder to flip, but there is nothing on the opposite shoulder to push against allowing half the weight to flip.

I really want to believe Tiffany and I am not accusing her. I just cannnot get these ideas and questions out of my head.

All MOO and such

ETA~ I notice that my infant's life vest floats her upright. However, David's sport vest was meant to turn him and float him slightly head back.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

Robot aircraft keeping watch over Texas border

CORPUS CHRISTI — Corpus Christi is known for the scenic view across the bay. But now it will also be known for the new view from the sky over the Texas-Mexico border.
U.S. Customs and Border Protection rolled out the first Texas-based Predator drone that will fly from the Naval Air Station here.

http://www.wfaa.com/news/texas-news/Robot-aircraft-keeps-watch-over-Texas-border-104752099.html

 

[claudicici]

"I cannot for the life of me figure out why her husband was face down in the water with a life vest on. The life vest is engineered to make sure this does not occur. I have had much experience with life vests and mine float me at an angle slightly backwards'

exactly,....and Tiffany also said she did not know he was shot in the head until she turned him around,which would mean the entrance wound was in front.How is that possible if they were chasing them?
Tiffany also said the boats took off in front of her and she then took off and passed them up.Wouldn't it be your natural survival instinct to move in the direction away from them even if that is the wrong direction?
I want to believe her but I can't see how the scenario possibly could have played out the way she describes it.
I am starting to think the poster that mentioned it could be a hoax is correct.
There is too much talk about controlling the border and appealing to the White House.I just can't see how this could be your main focus so soon after this happened.Maybe later but not immediately after it happened.
She also said she doesn't feel threatened yet she would not go to Mexico and she would not be able to identify the perps and she does not seem to care in particular who did this ,she just wants the body back?

 

[4BB]

I really, really want to believe her. Part of me still does, but I'm just so torn. Some of it just doesnt make sense, but I also dont know the whole story.

 

[4BB]

One more question about "just wanting the body back". I have never been in her shoes so I cannot imagine what the right thing to do would be.

How does life insurance work with no body of evidence?

 

[alwaysonmymind]

Not all lifejackets will flip an unconscious person over. With so many posts stating this as a fact, I'm bringing this in.

Which type of life jacket was David wearing? I've seen a photo of David on a jet-ski and IMO, he is wearing a Type lll based on the appearance. These are the ones we use. They fit better and are less bulky around your arms. Which is fine when your skiing, tubing, etc.

From the link and there are examples of what each type looks like.

Type I - Off-Shore Life Jacket

The Type I PFD provides the most buoyancy and is best for open, rough or remote water, where rescue may be slow in coming. It is designed to turn most unconscious wearers face-up in the water. The Type I comes in both adult and child size.

Type II - Near-Shore Buoyant Vest

The Type II PFD is good for calm, inland water or where there is a good chance of quick rescue. This type will turn some, but not all, unconscious wearers face-up in the water. Less bulky than a Type I PFD, the Type II is the least expensive type of PFD. It is available in many sizes.

Type III Flotation Aid

The Type III PFD is good for calm, inland water or where there is a good chance of quick rescue. Designed to keep the wearer in a vertical position, it may require the wearer to tilt their head back to avoid going face-down in the water and therefore is not recommended for extended survival in rough water. The Type III allows more freedom of movement for active water sports and is generally the most comfortable type for continuous wear. Float coats, fishing vests, and vests designed with features suitable for various sports activities are examples of this type of PFD.

Type IV Throwable Device

The Type IV PFD is an approved device which is designed to the thrown to a conscious person in the water. This device is not designed to be worn and must have at least 16.5 pounds of buoyancy. These usually take the shape of a boat cushion, life ring, or horseshoe device. These devices must be readily accessible during boat operation.

Type V - Special Use Device or Hybrid Inflatable

The Type V PFD is a special use device intended for a certain activity and may be carried instead of another PFD, but only if used in accordance with its label. Some of these devices provide hypothermia protection while others, such as a work vest, are intended for freedom of movement. A Type V may also take the form of hybrid inflatables such as float coats which combine inherently buoyant material with an inflatable bladder for extra lift. Type V PFD's must be worn when underway to be legal.


http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/es/enforcement/safety/pfd.htm

 

[BaileyandBella]

I heard she was on Anderson Cooper last night and he asked her how she will move on if no body was found. All she said was about was the securing the border, etc and also kept saying "WE".

Something is definitely weird about this case, maybe they work for the Gov't.

:waitasec:

 

[IWannaKnow]

Originally Posted by IWannaKnow
replies by wasnt me - blue
replies by IWannaKnow - purple

OK, I'm gonna walk the plank and state that I DO believe Tiffany.
These things prevent me from believing this is a scam:
1) Witness to her flight across the lake pursued by at least one boat.
Who is this exactly and what is their exact story? We don't know.
You are correct, we don't know who it is because he/she (?) is afraid for his/her life and does not want his/her identity revealed. That lends credence in my humble opinion, and apparently in law enforcement's eyes as well. The Zapata Sheriff was satisfied with the report. I do not presume to have better information than they do.

2) Witnesses who heard the gunshots.
Who heard this? A lady on FB who hasn't gone public in any other manner?
True, but what witnesses do you have to the contrary?

3) At least five attacks on boaters in this lake in the last 6 months by similar individuals.
In the attacks I read about, the people were robbed, not killed. Why were these two shot at without in an approach to rob? You can carry wallets and stuff while on a jet ski. Even when they were "Deciding what to do with her" they could have at least tried to rob her. Any good pirate knows that's step one.
Well, most other criminals have a tendency to accelerate their behaviors, I cannot understand why everyone has such disbelief that they would have shot someone. :waitasec: We are talking hard core criminals here. Have you read the reports of mass graves found on the border courtesy of the same cartels?? 55 bodies found in one mine shaft. Plus, the previous reports have primarily been on the US side - one during a fishing tournament, not 7 miles deep into Mexican drug cartel territory. My take is that they were most likely going to try to rob them when David turned around and told Tiffany they had to get out of there. I've seen nothing to discount this possibility.

4) Government officials have been stating for months to stay out of Mexico since it is too dangerous.
exactly, so if it's so dangerous, how the hell does a novice like her make it out?
Luck and a jet ski that will do 75 mph against bass boats loaded with men.

5) Sheriff won't go over to participate in search because it is too dangerous.
Agreed, so if professionals refuse to go in, who does a gunless novice make it out?
How does a gunless novice make it out? How do any of us who do things or go places we shouldn't make it out alive? Lucky. Do you really think that what ever gun she would have been able to carry in her bikini or those little compartments on the jet ski would have been useful in a gun battle with hardened criminals armed with machine guns?? Really?? Not to mention the fact that you cannot steer a jet ski with one hand (extensively discussed by other posters) unless you are James Bond, which Tiffany Hartley most assuredly is not...

6) Established tours for Old Guerrero - lots of people go there for the same reason. established tours being the operative phrase. These two sneaked over the mexican border.
Admittedly they were somewhere they should not have been but how many people do that every day? They lived in Matamoros for 2 1/2 years and probably didn't see the risk the same way you and I do. I see an adventure loving couple who didn't think too much about taking a little risk in the name of fun. They paid the ultimate price for that, which I feel is more than adequate punishment for Tiffany. I don't think she deserves the bashing she is receiving considering she is a widow of less than two weeks. His family had talked to him numerous times about his risk taking behavior and he told them he was fine and very careful. Obviously not quite as much as he thought. He paid a high price for his history penchant. There is absolutely zero proof that they were over there for any illegal reason what-so-ever - besides trespassing and illegal border crossing but hey, that goes on here every day and I do not see it as a valid reason to kill someone.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

To iwannaknow:

Thank you! Thank you for taking the time to post exactly what I feel and believe.

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

Originally Posted by IWannaKnow
replies by wasnt me - blue
replies by IWannaKnow - purple

Not to mention you have five incidents that could have resulted in one like this since April.

You have three witnesses, (one who actually saw her being chased by a boat, and a husband and wife who heard the gun shots, but assumed someone was dove hunting).

You have law enforcement speaking out saying they believe her story, along with numerous government officials! Even the head of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano called “speculation” about Tiffany Hartley's story "unwarranted," and said that the federal government was working with Texas and Mexican authorities.

You have a video of them being pulled over hours before, providing more proof that they were going Jet Skiing, as claimed.

 

[Tuffy]

Has anyone heard TH being asked, or TH saying how many pirates in total? We know there were three boats, but not how big the boats are or how many pirates were there. Right?

 

[IzzyBlanche]

The first article in this thread says two boats, but then this one says three:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mexican-pi...erican-begs-hillary-clinton/story?id=11801126

Neither of these is a direct quote from Tiffany, however.

 

[IWannaKnow]

This is a very good, descriptive article about Guerrero:

http://www.tpwmagazine.com/archive/2007/jul/ed_6/

July 2007
Sunken City
When Lake Falcon’s water level drops, ghost towns emerge from the depths.
By E. Dan Klepper

At the bottom it posts directions on how to reach Guerrero by land - BBM:

Directions to Old Guerrero
(Antigua Guerrero Viejo)

Round-trip distance is approximately 60 miles from Falcon State Park into Mexico and back. A high-clearance, 4-wheel-drive vehicle is recommended.

The ruins are extensive. Hiking boots, water, food, cameras and binoculars are recommended. Watch for venomous snakes. Mountain bikes are welcome. A small fee is required to view the ruins.

Be sure to check on the latest identification requirements for crossing the U.S. border into Mexico and back via automobile. A fee may be required from the Mexican checkpoint for re-entry. U.S. dollars are accepted.

The route is relatively simple whether you are traveling south from Zapata or north from Rio Grande City via Highway 83. Turn onto FM 2098 (a sign for Falcon State Park points the way). Continue on FM 2098 past Park Road 46 (which will take you to Falcon State Park) until you reach Falcon Dam. Bypass the U.S. border checkpoint station and continue driving along the dam, where you will cross the international border between the U.S. and Mexico. Slow down at the Mexican border checkpoint station, where you may or may not be asked to stop. Once through the checkpoint, you will be traveling on Blas De La Garza Falcon. Continue on Blas De La Garza Falcon into the small town of Nueva Ciudad Guerrero (New Guerrero). Continue to the Avenida Miguel Hildago Y Costilla intersection. Turn left onto Avenida Miguel Hidalgo Y Costilla and continue a short distance to Highway 2 (the Nuevo Laredo–Mier Highway). Turn right (west) onto Highway 2 and continue for approximately 21 miles. After crossing Puente Rio Salado (the Salado River Bridge) continue another 3.2 miles and then look for a blue sign indicating the road to Antigua Guerrero Viejo. Turn right. Follow the rough (and often muddy) unpaved ranch road approximately 10 miles. Additional blue signs for Antigua Guerrero Viejo have been posted on the route. You will pass through a number of ranch gates along the way (approximately eight — most with cattle guards). Please leave gates as you find them. Also, be aware that these gates are locked by 6 p.m. The road terminates at Antigua Guerrero Viejo and the shores of Falcon Reservoir.

*****************************************************************

This is why I think they were on jet skis. Much, much closer, much, much easier trip and more pleasant for a couple who seemed to live on the water. They didn't really strike me as the "organized tour" types. :twocents:

 

[WellDone]

]I heard she was on Anderson Cooper last night and he asked her how she will move on if no body was found. All she said was about was the securing the border, etc and also kept saying "WE".

Something is definitely weird about this case, maybe they work for the Gov't.[/B]:waitasec:

BBM

Personally, I don't see it that way..... If I thought I could get ANY help from ANY other agency, i.e. govenment, border patrol.... I'd definitley plea to them for their help also.....

Anything to get more focus on finding my husband.... ANYTHING... be it news shows, border patrol, the white house..... whatever it took.

I would think it would be SUSPECIOUS if she DIDN'T plea so hard to get David's body back......

*It is done EVERY DAY by other victims/families of crimes..... EVERY DAY!

I think the "WE" is our family.........

JMO

 

[LaLaw2000]

I believed Tiffany in the beginning and I still believe her.

Many pages back, a poster stated that an exit wound looks nothing like an entrance wound. Would we really expect Tiffany to know the difference or be able to take the time to examine the wound? All she knows is that David had a wound on his forehead. This whole incident was happening fast and furious, IMO, and I think Tiffany did everything she could. The next time you are in the water with a life jacket on, do an experiment of trying to turn an adult over while that person is wearing a life jacket. It can be done quite easily.

I think Tiffany did an excellent job of what she did of even getting herself back to shore. She could possibly be in emotional denial of this event and not be able to recall what the bandits looked like or what they were wearing. I would be concentrating on my husband and not so much on the bandits/murderers face and clothing.

When my late husband died, and when my son was killed in an a vehicle accident, I was calm and spoke with so many people, etc., and was not even crying at all. As long as I was busy and doing something constantly, I did not get hysterical. It was after it was alll over when I crashed and burned for months. Until then I was very stoic and cannot even say why. I simply do not know. During both times I had what my family and friends called a very blank expression.

I will not judge this woman. After all of this is over, she may crash and burn just as I did.

Sorry, I just had to put my two cents worth in this discussion. My thoughts and prayers are with Tiffany, Davids family, and all the people who loved David.

JMO

 

[hollyblue]

I heard she was on Anderson Cooper last night and he asked her how she will move on if no body was found. All she said was about was the securing the border, etc and also kept saying "WE".

Something is definitely weird about this case, maybe they work for the Gov't.

:waitasec:

This is what I have been thinking lately. Too many people getting on the "I believe her story" band wagon while it seems according to comments under the media articles and even here... see many inconsistencies. Since when did JVM, NG and GR give up their skepticism so easily. There is no proof it happened the way she says either. It may be that David is dead, and was shot, but them letting her go...multiple times...and after seeing a homicide to boot..has my hinky meter still active.

Not to mention you have five incidents that could have resulted in one like this since April.

You have three witnesses, (one who actually saw her being chased by a boat, and a husband and wife who heard the gun shots, but assumed someone was dove hunting).

These witnesses did not see the crime that resulted in her husband being disappeared did they? One thing is strange.....you don't go dove hunting with machine guns or automatic weapons. So they must have been single shots?

You have law enforcement speaking out saying they believe her story, along with numerous government officials! Even the head of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano called “speculation” about Tiffany Hartley's story "unwarranted," and said that the federal government was working with Texas and Mexican authorities.

Bless your heart, you are still among the very few who believe the gov't doesn't "fib", cover up anything or are self serving opportunists in certain situations.

You have a video of them being pulled over hours before, providing more proof that they were going Jet Skiing, as claimed.

Well we have her returning on a jet ski being chased by boat, hubby missing and so is the other jet ski. What does that prove, other than her being on a jet ski? No one saw him on the jet ski? Just sayin'

 

[pinkpuddytat]

Several tropical storms brought lots of rain to that area this summer. Only time Old Guerrero is above water is during EXTREME drought conditions.

http://www.usembassy-mexico.gov/eng/eacs_sheet.html

Entry to Mexico: As of March 1, 2010, all U.S. citizens – including children -- must present a valid passport, book or card, for travel beyond the “border zone” into the interior of Mexico. Entry by any means, for example by plane or car, is included in this requirement. The “border zone” is generally defined as an area between 20 to 30 kilometers of the border with the U.S., depending on the location. Stays of less than 72 hours within the border zone do not require a visa or tourist card.

Wow, that's an incredibly vague way to define legal vs. illegal entry -- "generally defined as", "20-30 kilometers", "depending on the location" --sounds like it would be awfully difficult to know whether or not you needed to have documents authorizing you to be there.